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Thread: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

  1. #1
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29122352

    The gist: Thousands of African immigrants (illegal or not) to Israel don't get the proper Asylum checks. They are sent back at great personal risk or detained unlawfully.


    "Israel is unlawfully coercing almost 7,000 Eritrean and Sudanese nationals into leaving the country at great personal risk, Human Rights Watch says."
    The methods to coerce the African immigrants to leave without access to asylum system (according to the article)

    " include "indefinite detention, obstacles to accessing Israel's asylum system, the rejection of 99.9% of Eritrean and Sudanese asylum claims,
    ambiguous policies on being allowed to work, and severely restricted access to healthcare"


    That's a new low for Israel, a land of people that had to endure such crap in living memory. I wonder how the Jews that were kicked out of so many places as kids feel about that.


    EDIT:
    HRW report:
    http://www.hrw.org/node/128682/section/6


    A DIFFERENT PICTURE:
    http://www.jpost.com/National-News/F...he-same-340804

    In this article, a different picture is painted on the conditions.
    "The No. 44 bus from Beersheba to Holot appeared every 10 minutes or so, including one time at midday when it stopped outside the front gate to drop off a single African man before leaving."

    "Like others, he said that already on his first day in Holot Israeli officials at the facility had spoken to him about how he could get a one-time stipend of $3,500 if he agreed to return to his country."

    "three journalists were able to walk along the perimeter, talk to detainees through the fence and take pictures for a solid half hour without interference on Thursday.
    The detainees have cellphones, wear their own clothes and laze about in the common areas outside the trailer homes, talking and playing Eritrean music next to the basketball courts."

    I would like to note here, that the article doesn't address the problem of nearly all applications being denied and people not allowed to apply for asylum. As the article says "if 3500$ and leaving is the only alternative to infinite detainment, then it's not voluntary" Still, for the majority of the immigrants that don't really have a reason to seek asylum, it's a sweet deal. Stay there 2-3 years till the authorities at home stop looking for you and then return home with the equivalent of 2-years-worth of salaries.
    Last edited by alhoon; September 18, 2014 at 05:26 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    It's illegal to kick out illegal aliens now, according to Human Rights Watch.

    You learn something every day. I wonder how many of those 7000 HRW have invited to live in their homes?
    Last edited by Tiberios; September 10, 2014 at 08:15 PM. Reason: Disruptive removed.

  3. #3
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by opock View Post
    It's illegal to kick out illegal aliens now, according to Jew Watc-... Human Rights Watch.

    You learn something every day. I wonder how many of those 7000 HRW have invited to live in their homes?
    That's like asking you how many ISIS terrorists you killed.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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    Henry of Grosmont's Avatar Clockwork Angel
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    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29122352

    The gist: "Israel is unlawfully coercing almost 7,000 Eritrean and Sudanese nationals into leaving the country at great personal risk, Human Rights Watch says."

    That's a new low for Israel, a land of people that had to endure such crap in living memory. I wonder how the Jews that were kicked out of so many places as kids feel about that.
    Not that I'm condoning it, but you do realise that your comparison is, how to put it mildly, not smart?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    That's like asking you how many ISIS terrorists you killed.
    I don't have the ability to kill ISIS terrorists at the moment. They have the ability to invite these people that have been "illegally" removed from Israel to live with them and show they are serious. Rather than whining that others won't take on a burden they themselves refuse to.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29122352

    The gist: "Israel is unlawfully coercing almost 7,000 Eritrean and Sudanese nationals into leaving the country at great personal risk, Human Rights Watch says."

    That's a new low for Israel, a land of people that had to endure such crap in living memory. I wonder how the Jews that were kicked out of so many places as kids feel about that.
    Why do so many "refugees" leave their families behind? Why do they cross all the way to Israel instead of staying in Egypt? Why doesn't your country take them in?
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  7. #7
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by opock View Post
    I don't have the ability to kill ISIS terrorists at the moment. They have the ability to invite these people that have been "illegally" removed from Israel to live with them and show they are serious. Rather than whining that others won't take on a burden they themselves refuse to.
    That argument is ridiculous. HRW is not a homeless shelter just like you are not an Air Force. I doubt HRW owns any housing.

    The better argument would be one dealing with asylum laws or economics
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Why do so many "refugees" leave their families behind? Why do they cross all the way to Israel instead of staying in Egypt? Why doesn't your country take them in?
    My country does. By the millions.
    Of course, the conditions we keep them at are sub-par. Perhaps worse than those of Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry of Grosmont View Post
    Not that I'm condoning it, but you do realise that your comparison is, how to put it mildly, not smart?
    I beg to differ. Jews were made to feel "unwelcome" in various countries even after WW2 so they emigrated to Israel; a place where they could be welcome and not afraid of the state kicking them out. They had to go through the stage of being "coerced" to leave.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Why do so many "refugees" leave their families behind? Why do they cross all the way to Israel instead of staying in Egypt? Why doesn't your country take them in?
    We have signed an exclusivity clause with Syrians and Afghans.
    "Blessed is he who learns how to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to hurt his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of the immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured."
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    My country does. By the millions.
    Of course, the conditions we keep them at are sub-par. Perhaps worse than those of Israel.
    Ah then another 7,000 won't hurt. In Israel they are given free basic education and health care. There is suspicion that they aren't all really refugees since 85% of them are male which fits the profile of economic migrants, though they do come from countries that suck. They don't really have any economic future in Israel though as unskilled laborers which there are already a surplus of, and then there is the population issue of the country in general which this makes pretty clear: https://populationmatters.org/docume...index_2011.pdf

    That and they're managing to turn south Tel Aviv into a lovely microcosm of their homeland with all the associated problems that made them want to leave.

    EDIT: I actually know a girl that teaches English at this school for refugees in Tel Aviv...



    Obviously you can see how evil the Israelis are.
    Last edited by sumskilz; September 09, 2014 at 03:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  11. #11
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Ah then another 7,000 won't hurt. In Israel they are given free basic education and health care. There is suspicion that they aren't all really refugees since 85% of them are male which fits the profile of economic migrants, though they do come from countries that suck. They don't really have any economic future in Israel though as unskilled laborers which there are already a surplus of, and then there is the population issue of the country in general which this makes pretty clear: https://populationmatters.org/docume...index_2011.pdf

    That and they're managing to turn south Tel Aviv into a lovely microcosm of their homeland with all the associated problems that made them want to leave.
    Yes, I understand sending back illegal immigrants. I don't condone auto-dropping nearly all asylum petitions since "most of them wouldn't go through anyway". I also don't condone indefinite incarceration for asylum seekers even if they go through the proper channels.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Ah then another 7,000 won't hurt. In Israel they are given free basic education and health care. There is suspicion that they aren't all really refugees since 85% of them are male which fits the profile of economic migrants, though they do come from countries that suck. They don't really have any economic future in Israel though as unskilled laborers which there are already a surplus of, and then there is the population issue of the country in general which this makes pretty clear: https://populationmatters.org/docume...index_2011.pdf

    That and they're managing to turn south Tel Aviv into a lovely microcosm of their homeland with all the associated problems that made them want to leave.
    Funny, it's the same in almost every European country (including Greece BTW). Somehow "refugee" nowadays means "young, male, able-bodied immigrant". And they're always from Asia or Africa.

  13. #13
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    It's not that Sudanese or Erithreans don't have any chance to be valid Asylum Seekers, fleeing their war-torn countries though.
    I'm just... worried that we don't see more Libyan refugees. Aren't people living Libya with the capital changing hands every 6 months or something? It seems that there would be several viable asylum seekers coming from there.


    In any case, I also think that 7000 more wouldn't hurt. They probably wouldn't even make a dent. But I doubt my compatriots and government will see it that way.
    Last edited by alhoon; September 09, 2014 at 04:14 PM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  14. #14

    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    That argument is ridiculous. HRW is not a homeless shelter just like you are not an Air Force. I doubt HRW owns any housing.

    The better argument would be one dealing with asylum laws or economics
    And Israel is an international homeless shelter?

  15. #15
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    EDIT: I actually know a girl that teaches English at this school for refugees in Tel Aviv...
    You lucky b...
    In any case, ask that nice, pretty girl if she agrees with Israel's policies towards the new wave of Sudanese and Erithrean refugees, or with the conditions of their detainment.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Obviously you can see how evil the Israelis are.
    Why EVERYTHING posted as bad for Israel should automatically be taken as "all Israelis are evil"?
    No, not everything Israel does is wrong.
    Unlawfully keeping 7000 refugees detained in unhealthy conditions and refusing 99.9% of all Asylum applications from Sudan is wrong though.

    Quote Originally Posted by opock View Post
    And Israel is an international homeless shelter?
    Refusing all Asylum applications from Sudanese is still wrong. Refusing access to Asylum request system is also wrong. Unlawful, unhealthy detainment is also wrong.
    Last edited by alhoon; September 09, 2014 at 04:22 PM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
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  16. #16
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    I heard Europeans love refugees, so why not deport those people to Europe?
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Stop criticising Israel you bigoted racist!!!! you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    : D
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Why should other countries be obligated to take in refugees in the first place?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Why should other countries be obligated to take in refugees in the first place?
    Let's just say it's the humane thing to do, of course until it gets too far. And in many cases it has!
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Israel unlawfully coercing 7000 Africans to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    You lucky b...
    In any case, ask that nice, pretty girl if she agrees with Israel's policies towards the new wave of Sudanese and Erithrean refugees, or with the conditions of their detainment.
    Ah you know, they're all there trying to save the world, pragmatism doesn't enter into it. I think those kids are legit refugees though. There are even some from Gaza because they had family members suspected to have been collaborators.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Why EVERYTHING posted as bad for Israel should automatically be taken as "all Israelis are evil"?
    No, not everything Israel does is wrong.
    Oh we have so many threads about Israel, I just assumed they must be evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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