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Thread: Good sources for armies from late-Tang early-Song, Goryeo, and pre-Gempei Japan

  1. #1
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    Default Good sources for armies from late-Tang early-Song, Goryeo, and pre-Gempei Japan

    So I'm doing research for a large Crusader Kings mod set in east Asia around the 10th or 11th century, and I'm trying to get a good grip on the state of weapons, tactics, and military administration around that time. Tibet, Nanzhao and Vietnam are also serious blind spots that I hope to fill in a bit. What are some good places to start? I'm particularly interested in how the troops were recruited, organized and led, seeing as this is a project for a grand strategy game. Tactical or technical differences are less important.

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    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Good sources for armies from late-Tang early-Song, Goryeo, and pre-Gempei Japan

    That's actually a really hard question.
    Let's start with Tibet, Vietnam and Nanzhao. Nanzhao was similar to the Tibetans in culture and also had a presence from the local mountain/jungle tribes so those can factor in like Tibetan nomads or Jungle tribesmen. Like the Tibetans they might use lamellar armour then as their main body armour.

    Tibet had an army similar to the Mongols and depended mostly on nomadic type light cavalry and heavier cavalry equipped with lamellar armour. Also backed by lighter archers and light spearmen and slingers.
    Recruitment for these is unknown to me but I would assume it was mostly feudal type troops in the cities and tribal levies drawn from the villages.

    Sorry but I can't really comment on Vietnam as it is not my area at all. Although they were very similar to the Chinese armies and in many respects may have been like the armoured semi-nomadic troops of Tibet and Nanzhao. Again the recruitment is unknown to me but I would assume that it was closer to the Chinese system.

    As for Tang and Song armies I would recommend some Osprey books to really give you the idea.
    Check out Imperial Chinese Armies (2) 590 - 1260 for the plates and the basic information. It will give you some idea regarding Tang and Sung armies.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar 避世絕俗
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    Default Re: Good sources for armies from late-Tang early-Song, Goryeo, and pre-Gempei Japan

    David Graff, Medieval Chinese Warfare 300-900
    Peter Lorge, War, Politics and Society in Early Modern China, 900-1795
    Karl Friday, Samurai, Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan
    William Wayne Farris, Heavenly Warriors: Evolution of Japan's Military, 500-1300

    South East Asian and Tibet are out of my area unfortunately, as is Korea.

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    Default Re: Good sources for armies from late-Tang early-Song, Goryeo, and pre-Gempei Japan

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    David Graff, Medieval Chinese Warfare 300-900
    Peter Lorge, War, Politics and Society in Early Modern China, 900-1795
    Karl Friday, Samurai, Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan
    William Wayne Farris, Heavenly Warriors: Evolution of Japan's Military, 500-1300

    South East Asian and Tibet are out of my area unfortunately, as is Korea.
    The Goryeo Dynasty in Korea was timewise ruled by a Shogun like system. At the time of the Mongol invasions of Korea a military dictator was the true power within Korea and he reigned with a private army recruited out of slaves similar to the Mamelukes in Egypt.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goryeo_military_regime

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Good sources for armies from late-Tang early-Song, Goryeo, and pre-Gempei Japan

    I wrote this Wiki article a long time ago. This section of the article should be of some use for you in regards to China at least:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societ...and_techniques

    However, the period before the Song Dynasty (960 - 1279 AD), the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period (907- 960 AD), I know much less about, unfortunately.

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    Default Re: Good sources for armies from late-Tang early-Song, Goryeo, and pre-Gempei Japan

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    David Graff, Medieval Chinese Warfare 300-900
    Peter Lorge, War, Politics and Society in Early Modern China, 900-1795
    Karl Friday, Samurai, Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan
    William Wayne Farris, Heavenly Warriors: Evolution of Japan's Military, 500-1300

    South East Asian and Tibet are out of my area unfortunately, as is Korea.
    I have read three of those titles, save for Farris, and can emphasize they are good quality.

    I can also support the mention of the Osprey titles, as they are good visual sources.

    For Korea, this title might be handy:

    A Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail: Ming China and the First Great East Asian War, 1592–1598, By Kenneth Swope

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    Default Re: Good sources for armies from late-Tang early-Song, Goryeo, and pre-Gempei Japan

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    David Graff, Medieval Chinese Warfare 300-900
    Peter Lorge, War, Politics and Society in Early Modern China, 900-1795
    Karl Friday, Samurai, Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan
    William Wayne Farris, Heavenly Warriors: Evolution of Japan's Military, 500-1300

    South East Asian and Tibet are out of my area unfortunately, as is Korea.
    I have read three of those titles, save for Farris, and can say that they are good quality texts about the subject matter.

    I can also support the mention of the Osprey titles, as they are good visual sources.

    For Korea and Tang China, this title might be handy:

    http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.p...=9780674033061
    Last edited by The Byzantine Basileus; October 19, 2015 at 07:10 AM.

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    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Good sources for armies from late-Tang early-Song, Goryeo, and pre-Gempei Japan

    A lot of people really have it out against the Osprey books. I know Osprey makes mistakes but for a Westerner with no knowledge of this stuff and no access to Chinese sources Osprey books at least give you some sort of idea or introduction when before one would be drawing blanks on what this stuff even was. I have that Harvard series book "China 's Cosmopolitan Empire: the Tang Dynasty" though I have not gotten as far as the military stuff itself since I started with the "Northern and Southern Dynasties" and then jumped to "The Troubled Empire: Yuan and Ming" out of sheer curiosity. Sorry I could not be more helpful as Korea and Vietnam are really not my areas.

    Finding sources for Tibet and Nanzhao are difficult enough and the op seems to want specific information on the Chinese armies which I would have to go mine for in my books or somewhere on the internet.
    pre-Gempei Japan isn't really my area either but you could try Karl Friday. One book I have of his is "the First Samurai: the Life and Legend of Taira Masakado" which is at least useful when trying to see how feudal politics, small scale operations and gaining support among military groups sort of worked.

    I mean armies back then were raised almost like mercenaries or volunteers from strong samurai groups or families if they were willing to support your clan on a local level. Aside from that the much stronger family raising said troops would have other families under them as well as their own retainers to fight for them. Armies back then weren't exactly very large, at least not in Japan and full scale mobilization probably had not occurred since the Emishi threat in the 700's when the peasant based conscript armies were disbanded. As far as actual threats go it was basically just one family fighting another for local territorial gains and of course some were bigger wars than other depending on how strong the families were or how much support they had from the Emperor. The greatest disturbance of this kind must have been when Taira Masakado seized the Kanto region and declared himself Emperor in 939. Then later the Zenkunen and Gosannen Wars (1051-1089) when the Emperor sent the Minamoto and Fujiwara governors and strongmen to destroy certain clans in the Tohoku region (and of course grab chunks of land for themselves) which were fighting among themselves and ignored the wishes of the governors and the Imperial Court in Kyoto.
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; October 19, 2015 at 12:40 PM.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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