[Battle Physics] There's some weird mass stuff going on

[Dago Red]

I waited until last night to download EB II (after waiting 7+ years, etc) so that there would be a solid release out (2.01) and there is! Love everything about the game so far, save one somewhat crucial aspect -- the battles.

Indeed the physics seem almost altogether lacking. I don't think we want to see men flying 30 feet into the air on every collision in EB II, but this is too far in the opposite direction. Battles feel castrated. There are almost no charge/collision animations. Men walk up to each other and rub chests ever so gently with only a few in each unit taking swings. So, lots of work here....

My greatest suggestion would be to look at the work that various teams have done over the years in Broken Crescent with combat values and re-adjust accordingly for the time period. But simply swapping in gamegeek2's EDU from BC 2.3 would be better than what is here now, even if horse units still have too much impact there.

Fire at will and projectiles in general are a breath of fresh air from Total Farce Rome 2, on a good note.

[QuintusSertorius]

Skirmishers are still trash. Only the trajectories of the javelins were changed, which is a cosmetic change.
Anyone interested: wait a couple of days and I'll post my modified EDU for skirmishing that really works.

Did you ever get round to doing this? Would you be interested in combining it with my light_spear submod?

I note they've all got their 40m ranges, which is far too short to get them to throw. Would 70m work better, if I were to have a go myself?

[WAD81]

I did, among a few other changes.
The thing is.... Changing that is sooo simple. It would take the 'mysterious' statter 1 day.
Same with 'light-spear' attribute. Armour values... Defence values.... You post a ton of simple stuff, yet receive 1 disinterested & not to the point response.
So I simply lost the interest to share anything.

[WAD81]

Find all the skirmishers.
1) Formation: 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3.
2) Weapon: prec_javelin80 (this is important, 'javelin' is useless)
3) Range: 70/80 meters, as you wish.
4) My default number of javelins is 6 (sometimes lower). I lowered their attack to 6, from the previous 9.
5) animation chage - you can change it in battle_models, to 'EB_Short_Javelin_Prec' as a primary weapon
5) ^if you don't know how to do it, change the EDU like that:
-'Euzonoi' soldier for javelin + knife/sword
-'kareus_late' soldier for javelin + overhand spear
-'Garamantes_Inf' soldier for javelin + underhand spear

I hope you get it, mate. One hour of work and your skirmishers are in the badass mode.

[QuintusSertorius]

I did, among a few other changes.
The thing is.... Changing that is sooo simple. It would take the 'mysterious' statter 1 day.
Same with 'light-spear' attribute. Armour values... Defence values.... You post a ton of simple stuff, yet receive 1 disinterested & not to the point response.
So I simply lost the interest to share anything.

I don't really have a day, and I don't want to touch the wider statting; but an hour or two I can manage.

In any case, if you've already done it, put it up in the submod forum. As long as you explain what's been done, people will try it and feed back.

Find all the skirmishers.
1) Formation: 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3.
2) Weapon: prec_javelin80 (this is important, 'javelin' is useless)
3) Range: 70/80 meters, as you wish.
4) My default number of javelins is 6 (sometimes lower). I lowered their attack to 6, from the previous 9.
5) animation chage - you can change it in battle_models, to 'EB_Short_Javelin_Prec' as a primary weapon
5) ^if you don't know how to do it, change the EDU like that:
-'Euzonoi' soldier for javelin + knife/sword
-'kareus_late' soldier for javelin + overhand spear
-'Garamantes_Inf' soldier for javelin + underhand spear

I hope you get it, mate. One hour of work and your skirmishers are in the badass mode.

1) What does the formation change do? Akontistai are currently: 1.86, 1.83, 2.79, 2.99, 5 - only the last number seems a big change. Euzonoi should probably use the formation you posted before, since they're actually light infantry.
2) What's the difference between the javelin and prec_javelin traits? How does it impact the AI using skirmishers with it?
3) I can understand that. I'm thinking 70m is the best trade-off between functional and realistic.
4) I wasn't planning to touch that, or their attack.
5) So changing the soldier to one of those three will sort out their animations, if I only want to edit the EDU?

[WAD81]

1) Unit will throw javelins better because each soldier will get in the range faster. If the unit is spread out too much, they will wait and wait. Or start skirmishing. It's just more handy to have them together. You can always put them on 'loose' formation. Just my experience. Feel free to do anything you like obviously.

2) I'm talking about the missle type, in the 'stat_pri' line.
'Javelin40/50' etc. have very bad accuracy in 'desc_projectile', which makes them useless. Prec_javelin80 has much better & will work with 70 m range very well. It's a no brainer here, trust me.

3) I even went as low as 60 meters. They still work well. Give it a try.

4) Personal choice. No worries here.

5) Yes, no need to touch battle_models. EDU changes are enough.

BTW, no part of my previous post was directed at you. Have a nice day!

[QuintusSertorius]

1) My primary concern there is that it will make all skirmishers uniform and lose the variety. Euzonoi need a formation change (as per your earlier post), but for my first go I think I'll leave the rest alone.
2) This sounds like a critical change, I'm sold on it.
3) If 60m works, I'll give that a go.
5) How do I know whether they're underhand or overhand spear from the EDU alone? I've never seen some of these units before.

Thanks for your help!

[WAD81]

1) Euzonoi are pure skirmishers in my opinion. Real infantry starts with thureophoroi. But if you want to make them infantry, go with this:

soldier Euzonoi, 64, 0, 1.1, 0.33
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, free_upkeep_unit, can_withdraw, start_not_skirmishing
move_speed_mod 0.91
formation 1.2, 1.2, 3, 3, 6, square
stat_health 1, 3
stat_pri 9, 1, javelin, 70, 4, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr thrown

4 javelins, why? One already in their hand + 3 which they hold behind the shield.

BTW, did you notice that the euzonoi dissapear too fast when you zoom in the camera? They disappear as soon as the camera reaches half of their body.

5)
germanic jugundiz - overhand
eastern skirmishers, roman leves, celtiberian gesamica - underhand
rest - euzonoi

[torongill]

If I may add my ten cents worth:

• Variety of skirmishers depends also on their speed, formation, defensive and offensive equipment and more. Using the Euzonoi model lets you use the animations, but the EDU still provides the majority of the stats.
• Changing them all to Euzonoi or their equivalent allows the skirmishers to use the "volley" javelin throw, which coincidently makes them look and behave exactly like skirmishers.(change in the EDU.text)
• Increasing the range of skirmishers and decreasing it for prec_javelins for main infantry. The effect is that with the new animation skirmishers run for something like 10m and then launch their javelins. I have increased it to 80 meters, which still leaves about 70m of effective range - 60 if we have another javelin-equipped enemy.(change in the EDU)
• If I'm reading it correctly, according to the battle_config.xml skirmishers don't start their animation immediately when they are in range. Instead they walk to about 80% of their max range and then launch.(change in the battle_confix.xml)
• Changing the minimum skirmishing distance has another effect as well - skirmishers will retreat in the face of incoming infantrly, and if they face skirmishers they could retreat. I have noticed real skirmishing behavior to be honest, exactly like it's been described: a screen that's constantly moving and changing, that prevents the opponent from seeing how you have set your main battle line.(change in the battle_confix.xml)
• Decreasing the miss rate of javelins and increasing the one of arrows and stones will "motivate" the AI(and the player) to recruit javelineers, both foot and mounted ones. The miss rate is confusingly termed accuracy, but in reality it's miss rate, because the lower you set it, the more accurate the unit becomes(change in descr_projectile.txt)
• Decrease the radius of arrows and stones, as well as slightly decrease the one of javelins, because if it's counted in meters, then arrows and javelins are larger than howitzer shells(change in descr_projectile.txt)
• Increase mass of the javelins, which increases the chances of knock-downs.(change in descr_projectile.txt)
• I have to tinker with it a bit, but maybe lowering of the velocity of the javelins so that they are launched at a higher angle. Currently most of the javelins come in a very flat trajectory, which makes the first line of enemy soldiers likely to suffer gruesome injuries and death, but the rest are mostly intact, due to the fact that such flat trajectory takes full advantage of the shield stats.(change in descr_projectile.txt)

Do yourself a favor and use Notepad++ if you don't use it already, not just for stability but also for clarity. I had a few crashes due to sloppy editing and fat finger syndrome, but with Notepad++ and the system log I could encounter and fix the problem swiftly.
Any change in the .txt files should be savegame compatible. Changes in the .xml tables require a deletion of the map.rwm and a new campaign.

Personally I'm very glad of the modifications I've done in my campaign. Apart from the flat trajectory, skirmisher units are useful - not just in terms of garrisons, but also in terms of performance. When you realize that Skirmisher units are something between 5% and 10% of the complete roster and they're cheap as hell.


If only the AI were capable of maintaining a battle line! If only friendly horses weren't capable of stampeding over units without doing them nor harm... Alas...

I'm just putting it out there, but does anyone know if it's possible to give bonuses to formations, so that the AI has more motivation to keep a battle line?

[WAD81]

^ I got ninja'ed.
All spot on, sir! Variety, usefulness, and Notepad++... couldn't agree more.

[QuintusSertorius]

Alright, so I may try a more extensive edit.
1) Reduce the range of all the current precursor javelins (the line infantry using heavier javelins), perhaps to 40m.
2) Give prec_javelin80 to all the skirmishers and increase their range, perhaps to 70m.
3) Change the soldier model for all the skirmishers to Euzonoi/equivalent (thanks WAD81 for identifying which ones are which).
4) I may take a look at descr_projectile.txt, what are some sensible values to edit to?

I do use Notepad++ nowadays.

[torongill]

Alright, so I may try a more extensive edit.
1) Reduce the range of all the current precursor javelins (the line infantry using heavier javelins), perhaps to 40m.
2) Give prec_javelin80 to all the skirmishers and increase their range, perhaps to 70m.
3) Change the soldier model for all the skirmishers to Euzonoi/equivalent (thanks WAD81 for identifying which ones are which).
4) I may take a look at descr_projectile.txt, what are some sensible values to edit to?

I do use Notepad++ nowadays.

I'd say that 40m for the pre-charge javelins is too little, because of the underlying limitations: the battle_config limits the range of skirmishing, and the animation cuts another 10 meters or so.

4. Personally I have no idea, but I have lowered the radius of arrows and stones and may lower it even more. The soldier model is still a target on average a column 1.7m tall and 60-80 cm diameter, so adding another 10 cm on each side due to the radius of the missile is too much for me, especially for arrows.

• I'm thinking about lowering radius to 0.02 for arrows, 0.03 for stones and maybe 0.05 for javelins.
• Mass of the projectile is difficult, but something like 0.06 for missiles, 0.1 for stones and probably around 0.3 for normal javelins, about 0.6 for heavy javelins and about 1 kilogram for soliferra and pila. Anything more would be excessive IMHO.
• Speed should be managed carefully, because it basically determines the maximum range. Setting it too high makes the trajectory too flat.

[QuintusSertorius]

50m for non-skirmishers? Can I change the range without changing the name? Ie does prec_javelin70 have to have a range of 70m?

I'd say the speed is too high right now, they barely arc much. It's listed as minimum maximum, right? So presumably I just need to change the maximum to get more of an arcing trajectory? Reduce by 25%?

[z3n]

If you use notepad ++ and press control+f, then input the line you want to change like "Formation: 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3" to "Formation: 1.5, 1.5, 3, 2, 1.5" , then say replace. It can save you some time but keep in mind the lines arent always the exact same.

Plus if you want to change some numbers like attack of 10 to 9 for sword units, you need to make sure that there's an identifier like 'stat_pri 9, 0, sword' instead of just '9'.

[WAD81]

@ Sertorius:
1) No need to limit 'prec' units to 40 meters. Not all of them seem to have a 'heavy' javelin. I'd keep them at 70ish.
2) yes
3) yes
4) I wouldn't mess with descr_projectile. Just ascribe 'javelin_prec80' to all javelins. It has 0.08 accuracy and will work with ranges up to 80 meters.

[torongill]

50m for non-skirmishers? Can I change the range without changing the name? Ie does prec_javelin70 have to have a range of 70m?

I'd say the speed is too high right now, they barely arc much. It's listed as minimum maximum, right? So presumably I just need to change the maximum to get more of an arcing trajectory? Reduce by 25%?

I think the team basically forgot about the lower distance due to the animation.

То find out maximum range using the maximum velocity you use the formula in descr_projectile.txt

Velocity = Sqrt(Distance*9.81) (at 45º) To find the angle of flight for a given range and velocity of the projectile, use the formula sin(2*angle) = Distance*9.81/(Velocity^2)

For 80 m the maximum velocity at 45º is 28.01. Set it say 5-10% higher for skirmisher units, that would be a theoretical maximum if 30.81, but personally I'd put it no more than 29 myself, because with the new animation there are meters lost and with 30 m/s the range is almost 92 at 45º. 80m will be at 30º, and 70m will be at just under 25º

As a matter of fact, even setting the max velocity at 28.5 will lower the angle substantially. Of course, we shouldn't forget that the back lines need to discharge their projectiles as well, so yeah, a max of 28.5 to 29 should do the trick.

The problem, of course, is the limitation of the animations and the conflict with the engine and the reality of battle.

In real life the javelineer would actually release his pointy stick at above maximum range, because he would be calculating that the opponent would also be closing during the flight of the projectile. The javelineer would be prepared to throw before that.
In-game the skirmishers need to get within maximum range allowed by the speed of the projectile, prepare to throw, aim, run forward, throw. The diminished range due to both own movement and target movement will oblige the engine to flatten the angle of flight of the projectiles accordingly.

[QuintusSertorius]

Alright, for my first foray, I'll keep it simple and just alter the javelineers stats (with prec_javelin80 and change the Euzonoi formation). Wish me luck...

[QuintusSertorius]

Axe-wielding skirmishers (Kofyaren-i Para-uparisaina) - should they use the Euzonoi soldier too? I've changed it for consistency with everything else, it was kavakaza_javelinman in case I need to change it back.

See here for the consolidated submod.

[WAD81]

^ I forgot about them. Well, no other choice but to give them Euzonoi. But they will stab with an axe I think....
Unless you do a minor change in the battle_models

[QuintusSertorius]

^ I forgot about them. Well, no other choice but to give them Euzonoi. But they will stab with an axe I think....
Unless you do a minor change in the battle_models

But the trade-off is worth it for the better throwing animation, right? In any case the Euzonoi slash as well as stab, so it won't always look funny.