The original thread

[Julianus Flavius]

Well that's why I think it only really works for Daemons or undead. Daemons are known to randomly appear in all sorts of places, and given that all settlements would have some kind of means of disposing of the dead (seriously, why the Empire hasn't started state-mandated cremation is beyond me...) so small armies of undead makes sense. What annoyed me was giant armies of chaos warriors appearing behind the frontlines just coz.

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Good day to you all, grateful fans of Warhammer Universe.
As foreword, i want to make some explanation of what im writing here. For a long time i watched how botet is rising up from concept ideas to a sort of finished game(or mod if you wish). And despite of being totally impressed and excited as a modder kin, i became totally dissapointed as a player. Why so? Well, it was not easy to come for this conclusion for me, to be honest. I played a few campaighns(not finished none of them) and get frustrated. Its just.... its like nothing happend there. You just play, build, grow and fight on a vast map with a lot of factions and races. All what we did before in other total war games. Its okay, its something we expect, right? But then, im starting to remember what we did in our team, just to get away from all that things. Okay, not away, its the core of total war, but get something more there. I call it atmosphere and feeling of warhammer. And all that tiny things buried in small details. Im confident, that a lot of people here do not like scripted stucks of doom, summoned on the map here and there from nowhere and wich makes players life a bit harder. But dont you think this is the point? In therms of medieval 2 mechanics its nearly the only way to get you the whole sence of playing warhammer. Its suffer, surviving, event-rich gameplay flow. And then again, diplomacy. oh baby, it was restricted as in our mod. But there was a reason for that. Yeah, another attempt to get classic total war sandbox gameplay style closer to warhammer lore. Its looked like for some times, that im just playing vanilla med2 with orcs in botet, with passive AI and a poor gameplay... Also i know, that my commentary may sound mean and lots of guys here can say that im... not correct, that botet brings a lot of fun and yes, its more then a truth, so pretend this is a lonely comment that makes a target to spell some opposite thoughts of warhammer fan about mod. Anyway, this submod brings a lot to warhammer, specially great units and new races. And a bit of life you know I guess thats all i wanted to say, gratz to you, talented modders and keep up the good work!

I understand what you mean, and I agree that the 1.01 release is lacking in a lot of ways. I'm sure if you looked back on version 1 of Call of Warhammer you'd be astounded at how simple it was compared to 1.6. Remember the vanilla Medieval 2 models for Empire State Troops?
I very much appreciate everything the CoW team has managed to do. Personally I don't hate the scripted stacks, I just wanted to find a way to get a tense level of activity utilizing the AI, diplomacy, and crusade/jihad mechanics, to make it all more randomized and unpredictable. Obviously, we've only had some mixed success so far in 1.01. As you well know, the only way to get the AI to do exactly what you want is to script it and give it no choice, but we're doing a lot of work to improve everything so the AI will be more dangerous, at least as competent as Medieval 2 AI can ever be.

I get why you'd be frustrated, we're taking your team's creation, with its very specific vision and a LOT of HARD work, removing an important core feature of it (the Storm of Chaos scripting), and changing it so it fits a very different vision, one which hasn't been realized in 1.01, so it's comparatively very boring for now.

To me, both are fun in different ways, and people should play both. I love Call of Warhammer, and I hope 1.6 can take some of our work and improve that fun, scripted, very dangerous experience your team has worked to create. Likewise, we need to improve BoTET to make it a more active, interesting, lore rich campaign.

BoTET is like DAC for TATW, without that foundation there'd be nothing to expand on, and the differences are preferences, not one thing being better. I hope we can inspire more people in the CoW community to create submods and add to CoW, like TATW's modding community.

[Lord Necromancer]

I understand what you mean, and I agree that the 1.01 release is lacking in a lot of ways. I'm sure if you looked back on version 1 of Call of Warhammer you'd be astounded at how simple it was compared to 1.6. Remember the vanilla Medieval 2 models for Empire State Troops?
I very much appreciate everything the CoW team has managed to do. Personally I don't hate the scripted stacks, I just wanted to find a way to get a tense level of activity utilizing the AI, diplomacy, and crusade/jihad mechanics, to make it all more randomized and unpredictable. Obviously, we've only had some mixed success so far in 1.01. As you well know, the only way to get the AI to do exactly what you want is to script it and give it no choice, but we're doing a lot of work to improve everything so the AI will be more dangerous, at least as competent as Medieval 2 AI can ever be.

I get why you'd be frustrated, we're taking your team's creation, with its very specific vision and a LOT of HARD work, removing an important core feature of it (the Storm of Chaos scripting), and changing it so it fits a very different vision, one which hasn't been realized in 1.01, so it's comparatively very boring for now.

To me, both are fun in different ways, and people should play both. I love Call of Warhammer, and I hope 1.6 can take some of our work and improve that fun, scripted, very dangerous experience your team has worked to create. Likewise, we need to improve BoTET to make it a more active, interesting, lore rich campaign.

BoTET is like DAC for TATW, without that foundation there'd be nothing to expand on, and the differences are preferences, not one thing being better. I hope we can inspire more people in the CoW community to create submods and add to CoW, like TATW's modding community.

You are totally right. Thing is, my opinion mostly stated on a fact, that i cant get where you heading mate. If you can hear me right - for me personally it is very painfull to watch how much hard work you've put in mod and thats all for simple sandbox? Nah, i could be wrong, you said you trying to make AI do miracles? Is it capable? We saw a lot of AI mods, we had some of them, and... as you said, only scripts can do things right. But you know what? I want to believe im just blind))) And in the end, your submod will flourish. I want to wish you luck and keep that eager and effort on the right place.

P.S. Though im 100% sure you will not convince me why you bring flying units to the game

[regnak999]

Good day to you all, grateful fans of Warhammer Universe.
As foreword, i want to make some explanation of what im writing here. For a long time i watched how botet is rising up from concept ideas to a sort of finished game(or mod if you wish). And despite of being totally impressed and excited as a modder kin, i became totally dissapointed as a player. Why so? Well, it was not easy to come for this conclusion for me, to be honest. I played a few campaighns(not finished none of them) and get frustrated. Its just.... its like nothing happend there. You just play, build, grow and fight on a vast map with a lot of factions and races. All what we did before in other total war games. Its okay, its something we expect, right? But then, im starting to remember what we did in our team, just to get away from all that things. Okay, not away, its the core of total war, but get something more there. I call it atmosphere and feeling of warhammer. And all that tiny things buried in small details. Im confident, that a lot of people here do not like scripted stucks of doom, summoned on the map here and there from nowhere and wich makes players life a bit harder. But dont you think this is the point? In therms of medieval 2 mechanics its nearly the only way to get you the whole sence of playing warhammer. Its suffer, surviving, event-rich gameplay flow. And then again, diplomacy. oh baby, it was restricted as in our mod. But there was a reason for that. Yeah, another attempt to get classic total war sandbox gameplay style closer to warhammer lore. Its looked like for some times, that im just playing vanilla med2 with orcs in botet, with passive AI and a poor gameplay... Also i know, that my commentary may sound mean and lots of guys here can say that im... not correct, that botet brings a lot of fun and yes, its more then a truth, so pretend this is a lonely comment that makes a target to spell some opposite thoughts of warhammer fan about mod. Anyway, this submod brings a lot to warhammer, specially great units and new races. And a bit of life you know I guess thats all i wanted to say, gratz to you, talented modders and keep up the good work!

You have the base mod with teleporting doomstacks. Let the people who hate that crap have fun too. Don't try and ruin this mod.

[Lord Baal]

He's not trying to ruin anything, just making an input and giving constructive criticism on some details of the mod.

[Mr. Blob]

You have the base mod with teleporting doomstacks. Let the people who hate that crap have fun too. Don't try and ruin this mod.

Relax man. It is quite a bit easy to remove additional scripts by just deleting unwanted part of it. I do hope that new version would have scripting, at least a garrison script. Otherwise, player could steam roll the M2TW AI, making for one boring campaign. That would be a shame, when they've built such a big map and added new factions. M2TW AI ain't great, it needs every help it can get.

[regnak999]

Relax man. It is quite a bit easy to remove additional scripts by just deleting unwanted part of it. I do hope that new version would have scripting, at least a garrison script. Otherwise, player could steam roll the M2TW AI, making for one boring campaign. That would be a shame, when they've built such a big map and added new factions. M2TW AI ain't great, it needs every help it can get.

For you maybe. Not having a campaign on rails is a FEATURE of the mod. Furthermore this too easy is crap. Not all of us play M2TW every days for years on end. The base mod is for people like that and it seems to me that the creators of that are happy going screw the casual players.

I know that the 3rd Age Mod MOS has an option to disable scripts at the beginning of that mod. Why has the main mod not done that? there has been enough treads complaining about the doomstacks. Such complaints are normally met with stuff like, "Are you paying the modders?" And "This the way they want it."

Speaking of the latter this mod is the way the modders want it. Lack of doomstacks is a feature. If you don't like the features it is not for you. I will continue to speak up in support of the modders and against people trying to ruin the mod and hell yes it would.

[♔atthias♔]

For you maybe. Not having a campaign on rails is a FEATURE of the mod. Furthermore this too easy is crap. Not all of us play M2TW every days for years on end. The base mod is for people like that and it seems to me that the creators of that are happy going screw the casual players.

I know that the 3rd Age Mod MOS has an option to disable scripts at the beginning of that mod. Why has the main mod not done that? there has been enough treads complaining about the doomstacks. Such complaints are normally met with stuff like, "Are you paying the modders?" And "This the way they want it."

Speaking of the latter this mod is the way the modders want it. Lack of doomstacks is a feature. If you don't like the features it is not for you. I will continue to speak up in support of the modders and against people trying to ruin the mod and hell yes it would.

he is NOT trying to ruin the mod just offering his vision of it so let him do that please!!!!!! and if you disagree thats fine but can it be a bit less rude if I may ask?

[tarenor]

@Regnak Dude Relax. Also if you recall Scripts were in the orginal build with attacks and spawn stacks. (not as much as RotDG ofcourse) and if they want again it's their decision. the fact they even communicate with us and ask our opinion is great because they don't have to.

Continue to support the modders, I think that's awesome. but don't speak for them.

[JVR]

Intense thread lol, can anyone tell me off hand what building a need for the Ostland Unit "Black Guard"?

[Kaaihan]

well I came on to ask if there is a chance that having the correct model of the general would be part of the 1.5 experience, I have been playing border prince and well, the speech that Prince Morgan gives prior to deployment is underwhelming because the old guy model it uses is nothing like the "real" Morgan Bernhardt. Then I got into reading the posts, and I have to say, yes, the excitement I felt when the first time the Grudgebringers appears on my doorstep with the for hire sign in RoTDG, it was priceless and I would love to see that in BoTET. I literally shouted OMG, then quickly hired and saved the game as OMG. Small scripts like that, whether beneficial or impeding to the players, would be welcome imo.

[JVR]

ok im dumb...figured it out, got another question though, does anybody else notice that all the faction leader units are limited to 12 units???? I cannot figure out how to change that besides say making them an infantry unit.....

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

well I came on to ask if there is a chance that having the correct model of the general would be part of the 1.5 experience

Yes.

ok im dumb...figured it out, got another question though, does anybody else notice that all the faction leader units are limited to 12 units???? I cannot figure out how to change that besides say making them an infantry unit.....

It's from the faction leader trait, it's being fixed with a different trait limiting special bodyguard units so you don't end up with 48 Griffons.

[JVR]

ok i see thanks for the reply

[tarenor]

Yes.



It's from the faction leader trait, it's being fixed with a different trait limiting special bodyguard units so you don't end up with 48 Griffons.

Reminds me back in Rome 1 when Faction Leaders had like a bodyguard unit count of like 90+ hahahah

[OhHaiEmma]

Not sure if It's my new laptop, but I've gotten some odd screen flickering on the battle map. Grayish purple flickering. Not sure what's causing it. It comes and goes when I move by certain areas of the battle map. (Nevermind the flickering has stopped and hasn't come back.)

This has probably been answered somewhere in the posts somewhere, but I'll ask again anyway, are you going to change the trebuchet crew for Bretonia to be actual bretonians and not Empire Free Company? Also, why are the Temple Guard so whimpy in the current version. I remember reading that it's being fixed, but they seem to die even faster than regular saurus warriors, so is there a mechanical reason for their glass jaws?

[DecayWolf]

I have started a new campaign playing as VC, britonnia besieged mosolium, whanever I try to fight it loads, gets complete, freeze, then crash.
The patch, and 4gb after patch both were done. I am playing long campaign, because that's what modb suggested to do.

I also have a suggestion for the game currency.
Would be nice if the VC and tomb kings had a currency named Dark magic or Necromancy or Unholy Energy, or Karls once Altdorf is captured as VC or whatever seems fit.
Empire instead of gold, changed to Empire crown or gold crown.
For orcs teeth or teef.
For dwarfs, dwarf gold or silver... And so on and so fort for each faction race in the game.

The buildings seems a little bit too expensive at very beginning (starting funds from VH/VH) and soon after it's easy to have a very huge cash flow.
I've played only as druchii on my city number 9 - 10 with slave markets upgrades, I've reached a point where I am rolling with money. Same effect seems to be taking place as VC, however it's too soon to say anything, since I just started the campaign.

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

Not sure if It's my new laptop, but I've gotten some odd screen flickering on the battle map. Grayish purple flickering. Not sure what's causing it. It comes and goes when I move by certain areas of the battle map. (Nevermind the flickering has stopped and hasn't come back.)

Maybe a hardware graphics issue, I dunno. Good it stopped.

This has probably been answered somewhere in the posts somewhere, but I'll ask again anyway, are you going to change the trebuchet crew for Bretonia to be actual bretonians and not Empire Free Company?

Yes, that wasn't finished yet.

Also, why are the Temple Guard so whimpy in the current version. I remember reading that it's being fixed, but they seem to die even faster than regular saurus warriors, so is there a mechanical reason for their glass jaws?

Because balancing requires ensuring the 100 or so values for 500 or so units are all perfectly adjusted to work with and against every other combination of them. It takes a lot of time and adjustment.

I have started a new campaign playing as VC, britonnia besieged mosolium, whanever I try to fight it loads, gets complete, freeze, then crash.

Siege bugs are being fixed.

I also have a suggestion for the game currency.
Would be nice if the VC and tomb kings had a currency named Dark magic or Necromancy or Unholy Energy, or Karls once Altdorf is captured as VC or whatever seems fit.
Empire instead of gold, changed to Empire crown or gold crown.
For orcs teeth or teef.
For dwarfs, dwarf gold or silver... And so on and so fort for each faction race in the game.

It would be cool if we could give every faction their own currency types and mechanics like in Total War: Warhammer, but unfortunately Medieval 2 was based around every faction using interchangeable Gold Florins, and every faction being more or less exactly the same mechanically.

The buildings seems a little bit too expensive at very beginning (starting funds from VH/VH) and soon after it's easy to have a very huge cash flow.
I've played only as druchii on my city number 9 - 10 with slave markets upgrades, I've reached a point where I am rolling with money. Same effect seems to be taking place as VC, however it's too soon to say anything, since I just started the campaign.

Buildings and economy are being fixed.

[DecayWolf]

It would be cool if we could give every faction their own currency types and mechanics like in Total War: Warhammer, but unfortunately Medieval 2 was based around every faction using interchangeable Gold Florins, and every faction being more or less exactly the same mechanically.

That's a bummer, I could think also bringuing these changes into the diplomatic currency for import and export income ratio, for instance if the currency from one faction has a higher ratio lorewise, then it would be more likely that this faction would import more your tradable goods, also the amount receive by trade would have a percentage boost or penalty depending on the currency power of the said faction. Surely if this kind of mechanic would be possible, would require a quite extensive amount of time, which could probably be better spend elsewhere, still would be pretty nice nevertheless.

Probably these questions has already been asked, but I was wondering...

- How many hit points does a general like Mannfred and Malekith has? What is the average amount of hit points per general stack? Or at very least for the most important heroes for each faction?
- What does the necromancy special abillities does? The description of some says "fighting harder, getting a second wind" and such, but what exactly does it does?
- I saw a video on modb where units were being ressurected, will this be a replacement from the necromancy skills? This will be the only planned spell for VC and possibly tomb kings or there other magic going to be implemented? And how it will work, I mean amount of uses, requeriments for casting...
- One thing when playing as Druchii was a little disapointing, once all the primary stats like dread, command and piety where maxed, all retinues item like become pointless. There is any plan for making retinue items more userful? It could give special bonuses to troops like morale boost, or perhaps add an active special skill such rally or perhaps something more creative such animation speed boost, or attack boost, or defense boost temporarly or permanent... Maybe it could also give a passive attribute boost for the general squad, like attack or defense, or hit points... I mean anything besides command, piety, chiv/dread, autority, since these were very easy to be maxed out.
- There is any chance of releasing a pre patch for fixing the siege problems, before this big next update that is inc?

Also I have a different question...
Why does VC does not have archers anymore? I mean skeleton archers not empire levies... I mean the tomb king has such a horde of undead archers, it's not likely undead can't use a bow...
If it's because the tomb king people are sentinent and 'alive,' aren't the grave guards sentinent and alive like as well? So maybe giving them a archer unit more or less on the same stat level than grave guards but overall less skilled archers with a reasonable big upkeep? Or there is some sort of lore reason to not to? If the tomb kings can have archers, I don't get it why VC cannot. von Carstein were pretty skilled necromancers, not the best, but very skilled.


I saw a video from a few months ago, where kings of saint grail were being kicked by orcs boar riders, because these orcs had 2 hit points, while the grail cav only had 1.
I know you guys were working on balancing each unit, but in this particular case, how these boars will get balanced? Maybe less defense? Or increase the grail hit points to 2 or reduce boars to 1 hp?

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

That's a bummer, I could think also bringuing these changes into the diplomatic currency for import and export income ratio, for instance if the currency from one faction has a higher ratio lorewise, then it would be more likely that this faction would import more your tradable goods, also the amount receive by trade would have a percentage boost or penalty depending on the currency power of the said faction. Surely if this kind of mechanic would be possible, would require a quite extensive amount of time, which could probably be better spend elsewhere, still would be pretty nice nevertheless.

Not really possible, except maybe with a lot of very heavy scripting. And it's Warhammer, not a super realistic heavily scripted mod like Deus Lo Vult , Stainless Steel, Bellum Crucis, or the like, where international currency conversion might make sense.

How many hit points does a general like Mannfred and Malekith has? What is the average amount of hit points per general stack? Or at very least for the most important heroes for each faction?

No real average, I believe the maximum is around 15, and most generals should be somewhere between 4 and the maximum.

What does the necromancy special abillities does? The description of some says "fighting harder, getting a second wind" and such, but what exactly does it does?

Increases your troops stamina and kill rate.

I saw a video on modb where units were being ressurected, will this be a replacement from the necromancy skills? This will be the only planned spell for VC and possibly tomb kings or there other magic going to be implemented? And how it will work, I mean amount of uses, requeriments for casting...

It isn't a spell, it's just a special animation and hide mechanic. We can't do true resurrections.

One thing when playing as Druchii was a little disapointing, once all the primary stats like dread, command and piety where maxed, all retinues item like become pointless. There is any plan for making retinue items more userful? It could give special bonuses to troops like morale boost, or perhaps add an active special skill such rally or perhaps something more creative such animation speed boost, or attack boost, or defense boost temporarly or permanent... Maybe it could also give a passive attribute boost for the general squad, like attack or defense, or hit points... I mean anything besides command, piety, chiv/dread, autority, since these were very easy to be maxed out.

Nope, we're limited to what the Medieval 2 engine allows traits and ancillaries to do, and it's mostly just adding command stars, increasing morale, general hit points, chiv/dread, etc. We can't change the game code. I wish we could do more detailed things with them, we would if we could, but we don't because we can't.

There is any chance of releasing a pre patch for fixing the siege problems, before this big next update that is inc?

Nope, the fixes are tied into all the work. Be patient.

Why does VC does not have archers anymore? I mean skeleton archers not empire levies... I mean the tomb king has such a horde of undead archers, it's not likely undead can't use a bow...
If it's because the tomb king people are sentinent and 'alive,' aren't the grave guards sentinent and alive like as well? So maybe giving them a archer unit more or less on the same stat level than grave guards but overall less skilled archers with a reasonable big upkeep? Or there is some sort of lore reason to not to? If the tomb kings can have archers, I don't get it why VC cannot. von Carstein were pretty skilled necromancers, not the best, but very skilled.

Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings are different factions, and play differently. Why don't High Elves use repeater crossbows? Why doesn't Bretonnia use cannons? Because they're different and meant to play different. The lore reasoning is that Tomb Kings Undead are ancient soldiers bound into eternal service, while Vampire Counts raise local corpses as puppets.

I saw a video from a few months ago, where kings of saint grail were being kicked by orcs boar riders, because these orcs had 2 hit points, while the grail cav only had 1.
I know you guys were working on balancing each unit, but in this particular case, how these boars will get balanced? Maybe less defense? Or increase the grail hit points to 2 or reduce boars to 1 hp?

You'll see, I hope you like the new balance when you get to try it!