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Thread: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

  1. #1

    Default Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    Again, first of all, EB2 is great and im loving it, last time i had such a long and fun campaign as im having with Pergamon was years ago, on EB1 with Ptolemaioi, Romani and Casse, even though i tried many other TW games and mods, nothing reaches it!

    It absolutely aint game breaking or even close to it, but i sincerely hope the campaign map will be worked for the next version, graphic wise mostly. It seems it was made quite in haste. Specially chains of mountains, which are quite weird in EB2 as of now. Does the EB2 team have anyone working specifically on the campaign map?

    All the mountains and chains of mountains that i think could really need some changes for the next version. The main problem are those "Ice cubes"

    North Africa, Morocco
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Greece
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 








    Spain
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







    Flat scotland
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Apeninne Mountains
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Carpathian Mountains
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







    Caucasus Mountains
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Check the ice cubes
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Flat Anatolia
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Some other mountain pics
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







    And there is also the "farming nomads" ekdqn posted in the bug report forum

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    I think improving the campaign could really make the experience and the immersiveness much better!
    Last edited by Wulfburk; September 05, 2014 at 04:20 PM.
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  2. #2

    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    The EBII team lacks any members with sufficient mapping skills, so they had to cobble together what they could for the first release. It'll probably stay like that until someone with the right skills joins them.

    Well, that's what they said when this issue was brought up pre-release.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    Ah alright, well i hope a mapper will join their team then.
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  4. #4

    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    I think the best way to represent mountains is using the Low Mountains (and Hills, if you want to add passages through them) in the ground_types with the right heights in the height_map. I never use the High Mountains.


  5. #5

    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    You got any screenshots from other mods (or vanilla idk) that uses those low mountains as you say? Dont have any reference to compare.
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  6. #6

    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfburk View Post
    You got any screenshots from other mods (or vanilla idk) that uses those low mountains as you say? Dont have any reference to compare.
    Paeninsula Italica 2 does it, but theirs are quite round. I'll post some of mine ASAP.

    ---
    Here, check them:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 









    ^This one is in similar scale to EB2 mountains




    (you can also use the Impassable ground type for similar effects).

    And here two techniques I use in the map_heights:




    In case anyone is wondering, these are for personal mods (that's the reason you can see some borrowed textures in some of the pics). I used several tools to make the maps, including Photoshop, ImageJ, Geomod and Aurun's M2TW Random Map Generator. I'm planning a tutorial on how to create your own maps using mostly random input with a few tweaks (the mountains being among them).
    Last edited by Yayattasa; September 06, 2014 at 04:54 PM.


  7. #7

    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    They do look much better continuously and more natural in comparison to the current ones! Doesnt has that uneven mountain that out of the sudden pops out.
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  8. #8

    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    I did not download EB2 yet, but you can easily make something like what I did editing just the map_ground_types.tga and the map_heights.tga, just be aware you might change some roads and stay clear of characters/cities and you won't break anything.


  9. #9
    Slor's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    The PI team created a great map and those mountains do roll together nicely. However, at no fault of their own, those low mountains(when close like that) throw off extreme pathing problems for the AI for whatever reason. I was only able to get the AI to move thru some of those areas after making a somewhat large and clear cut valley thru areas where the mountains part for passage. I'm not extremely technical, so I dont know the issue really.

    Bellum Crucis also has fantastic mountain ranges.

  10. #10
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    The ice cubes are actually 3d (CAS) models used on the 'high_mountains' area in map_ground_types. It requires someone with the knowledge to work with that format.
    If memory serves right the map was made from actual satelite data. Which does not lend itself to exaggerated height differences - which in turn leads to unplayable battlefields if accessible.










  11. #11

    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    Border Princes, Orcs and Goblins, Dwarves and Night Goblins have no issues with the mountains in Rage of the Dark Gods (and they look stunning in that mod btw).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    The ice cubes are actually 3d (CAS) models used on the 'high_mountains' area in map_ground_types. It requires someone with the knowledge to work with that format.
    If memory serves right the map was made from actual satelite data. Which does not lend itself to exaggerated height differences - which in turn leads to unplayable battlefields if accessible.
    In my pics, the higher accessible areas (mostly hills groundtype) are all under the 80-100th height level, making them fully accessible in the battle map.
    Last edited by Yayattasa; September 06, 2014 at 09:09 PM.


  12. #12
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    The unplayability I am referring to occurs when you have height differences in excess of 8-10 in RGB value between neighbouring pixels, something that easily happens with exaggerated heights.
    Accessible == passable ground type, not related to height.










  13. #13

    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    Hmm, I see. Never found such occurrence because it never gets to such extreme slopes.
    Anyway, you can blur a bit the heights around the mountains to lessen such effect.

    EDIT: I found a few places with a 11 to 15 level increment from accessible to impassable terrain, will check the battlefields.

    EDIT2: Couldn't make the battle editor work, sorry :/
    Last edited by Yayattasa; September 06, 2014 at 10:08 PM.


  14. #14
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    correct, blurring is the standard method to smoothen transition areas.
    unplayable in the sense that opposing armies are not able to get to each other due to steepness of the terrain.










  15. #15

    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    correct, blurring is the standard method to smoothen transition areas.
    unplayable in the sense that opposing armies are not able to get to each other due to steepness of the terrain.
    Oh yeah, I understood, only happened to me once.


  16. #16
    Barlind's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    I wouldn't agree that all mountains end up in need of change. The Himalayas or especially Alps look stunning IMO, with it's extra height & plenty of high peaks. I have put more attention how these were made while playing, since I live in the alps area, and I must say the map designer captured it pretty good.



    However, these two mountain chains are more the exception overall. The flatness of "hills" or "low mountains" is really a problem, and the areas of map, that are naturally hilly, but not extremely high, end up feeling a bit unrealistically flat. I think the problem is in the textures/height value for these two tiles. If they're used around a "high mountains" tile, it ends up gorgeous (Alps). If they are used on itself, as in modern Scotland's highlands, or in, say, central Europe's hilly interior, it ends looking flat. I'm saying this purely from aesthetically POV, as I sadly don't know the way mechanics work in map tiling.

    Yayattasa:
    If using "low mountains" this way, does this means that they are all unpassable? I think the low mountains tiles should be passable in some instances (high mountain passes) and also that they should be easy defensible (as in vannila, where the elevation granted huge bonus to the defender's army). However, as I said, I really don't know how it works.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    Yeah i agree that the alps look great, reason why i didnt mention them in the OP
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  18. #18

    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    Quote Originally Posted by Barlind View Post
    Yayattasa:
    If using "low mountains" this way, does this means that they are all unpassable? I think the low mountains tiles should be passable in some instances (high mountain passes) and also that they should be easy defensible (as in vannila, where the elevation granted huge bonus to the defender's army). However, as I said, I really don't know how it works.
    The low mountain tiles are impassable, yes, but the neighboring hills tiles are passable, and all under the 80-100th height level to prevent a known battle map elevation bug (when the whole minimap gets black and the map looks flatter). I use the hill tiles to simulate impaired movement in the mountains, so there you got your mountain passes.


  19. #19

    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    Gigantus since you are a dev let me ask will the map be worked upon for the next version(s) or its pretty down in the priority list?
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  20. #20
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Campaign Map graphics, specially mountains

    At present minor corrections are being made, I am not aware of any 'overhaul' plans.
    At some point a review of 'general' map issues will be made and I am sure the necessary corrections will be done. Sorting out 'spikes' and unplayable battle fields will take time as it requires detail work, the 'ice cubes' will require some specialist approach - either through geography.db or via a model.










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