How to manipulate diplomacy in M2TW

[Vlad Dracul]

Yup, shock and horror, yet another topic about Medieval II Total War Vanilla diplomacy, but this one will be slightly different than the others, methinks.

From my point of view diplomacy represents the weakest link of this game, meaning that during a campaign it often lacks any form of elementary human logic or common sense (one relevant example can be found at the end of this post, the story between France and Milan). Allies attacking you for no reason and without warning, kingdoms on the verge of destruction that refuse an advantageous ceasefire offer, factions that gang up only against human player if that player has a low reputation but not on AI, even if AI is despicable etc. etc. you know what I’m talkin’ about, you lived this nightmare before for sure.
The reason (as I found out quite recently - thanks, FootSoldier) is in the game scripts, which are quite pervert, I'm tellin' ya.

That was the bad news, the good news is that the diplomacy can (and should) be manipulated in your advantage.

By manipulating diplomacy one can mind his own business and concentrate on the campaign’s goals, rather than go wild goose-chasing fighting everybody everywhere.

Allies remain (well, more or less) allies, enemies are the ones the player picks, no unnecessary wars take place (almost). The player can decide who to fight and where, can actually work on a military and economical strategy.
Don’t have to bother with occupying every settlement (which is bugged anyway in the original patched game. Here is how to fix it. Vampiresbane claims you can do it even without unpacking the game) or releasing every captured prisoner (which is very much counterproductive) in order to increase the global reputation.

The game gains the sanity that previously lacked. Doesn’t look like a mental institution anymore, but rather like something you can have fun while playing.

But enough foreplay, let’s cut to the chase:
As you definitely noticed in your game-experience, regarding Medieval II Total War, reputation is the key.
If you have high reputation, the game is enjoyable, otherwise it becomes something ugly and frustrating (especially for new players) like I described here (yeah, long post, but worth reading).
After a lot of struggle with the overcheating AI that made every effort almost every game to destroy my pleasure of playing, I finally found a way to easily increase my reputation to Immaculate on VH/VH (without manipulating diplomacy my highest rep level was Trustworthy on hard) and imho to get the best out of the Vanilla version of the game.

I always was curious about that “Attack faction” diplomatic option the game has and since nobody could give me a satisfying answer about how it works, I start testing it myself.

The results were quite shocking, turned out that if I offer to (let’s say) Denmark an attack against a faction (or rebels) and keep my word (really do attack), the reputation of Denmark rises.
And the other way around.
If you convince factions to attack rebels or other factions, your reputation will increase.

Logically speaking, it’s a nonsense, but it works.

So, by manipulating diplomacy that way I even managed to achieve a performance like reachin’ Immaculate reputation after the first 11 turns of the game in one of my campaigns with HRE (on very hard).



If you’re interested in this tactic, here’s how it should be done:

Diplomats are extremely important, so in the beginning of the game start creating as many of them as you can; use your first princess also in diplomacy.
If you don’t have any Town Halls, stray from your usual building-path and start creating one in the very first turn of the game.

Make alliances, as many as you can (well, not antagonistic ones) and as fast as you can; it’s better to have a couple of allies before conquering the first rebel settlements and at least 4 before starting a war with another faction. That’s because sackin’ settlements and ransomin' prisoners affects your reputation so you better take some countermeasures first. And also because it’s easier in the future to convince an ally to attack someone than to convince a neutral faction to do the same.

When you’re offering alliances, always ask for an attack against rebels in exchange; factions tend to agree easier to attack rebels in the beginning of the game; on later stages, you won’t convince them anymore to attack rebels, but other factions instead.
If they don’t agree, try to offer them money (usually a tribute, sometimes they ask themselves for that) or/and attacks against rebels, anything but determine them to attack.
If they’re still not convinced, just ally with them anyway and try again some turns later.

(Btw, you get better deals by negotiating with captains than with generals/family members or towns/castles)

As many successful deals you make, as much your diplomats’ influence rises, the relations with different factions also and after your reputation will be above Trustworthy, it will be easier and easier to get better deals in the future (even if they’re regarded as “demanding”).

When you’re Immaculate there’s no need to ask your allies to attack rebels/factions anymore, that is ‘till 2 of your allies will start a war. Then you’ll be forced to break an alliance which can lead to a rep drop. And that will lead you to ask your allies to attack factions once again.

And speakin’ about attackin’ factions, no matter how perfect are the relations between us I noticed that my allies are almost impossible to convince to attack my enemies (which could be very useful for me) and even a common enemy, but they tend to agree attacking some of their own enemies (not any enemy, only certain ones).

Instead I have no problems getting’ serious florins out of them when I offer attacks against rebels. Which I do quite often, beside the money it also helps the relations to go up.

Now, I’m not particular happy I have to defy logic that way in order to enjoy M2TW, and I can’t help myself from asking all kind of questions:

Why in the name of sweet Lord Jesus Christ would they be so ecstatic if I attack rebels on my territory?! Or a faction that they don’t care about, thousands miles away from their borders?! Why should my reputation go up if I convince my allies to attack their enemies located at the end of the world from my lands?!
What’s the tactical or strategical advantage for me or for them out of this mess?!
What kind of pervert logic this game is following?!


No clue, the answers are beyond me. All I know is that it works.

One last thing, I don’t pretend this to be some sort of ultimate diplomacy guide for M2TW;
I’m also not sure at all that it was CA’s intention that Medieval to be played this way;
I’m not even thrilled I have to act so out of logic for the game to behave mentally sane;
It’s just how things work for me best (at least, for now) and I wrote this thinkin’ that other players will enjoy the game more by following my playstyle.

I’ll end this with some useful statistics:

Relations level

Abysmal
Terrible
Very Poor
Poor
So So
Reasonable
Amiable
Good
Very Good
Outstanding
Perfect

Reputation levels

Despicable
Deceitful
Very Untrustworthy
Untrustworthy
Dubious
Mixed
Reliable
Very Reliable
Trustworthy
Very trustworthy
Immaculate

Factions wealth

< 2,500 Bankrupt
< 7,500 Meagre
< 12,500 Very Poor
< 17,500 Poor
< 22,500 Modest
< 27,500 Reasonable
< 32,500 Well off
< 37,500 Rich
< 42,500 Very Rich
< 47,500 Extreme
> 47,500 Boundless

Oh, and let’s not forget that afterall it’s not Total War, because…

[UndrState]

Interesting, if a bit crazy. It really should be reversed, and I've seen claims from the likes of Nazgul Killer that the reverse is true. Not to say that I'm doubting your results, this should be easily testable.

[Vlad Dracul]

Yeah, since I made this discovery (both of us talked about it in the General Questions thread some while ago) I end up being Immaculate in every game (I play Vanilla only, not mods), and all my allies also, because I make money by selling my allies attacks against rebels, I ask each of them around 1.000 - 1.400 florins (depending by their wealth and my diplomats' influence) in exchange for an attack and I gain that way around 6k -8k (or even 10 k if I'm lucky) every turn or almost every turn starting with the mid-period of the game.

And I also noticed that if other factions are Immaculate, they tend to act "sane" most of the time, don't attack their allies so often, so the international situation is more stable.

[adimasaditya]

It's just my opinion but maybe the logic is that when you ask your ally to attack other faction, the game regards that faction you request to be attacked is your true enemy. And your ability to make your ally do the dirty work makes you 'good'. Though in real life you would be branded at least despicable. But you got my point, right?!

Anyway great guide!! Will test it definitely

[Swiss Army Cheese]

Two months of research and you're calling the diplomacy broken just because you can't get the AI to pay you to annul the alliance?

From my point of view diplomacy is broken, meaning that often during a game it lacks any form of elementary human logic or common sense (one relevant example can be found at the end of this post, the story between France and Milan). Allies attacking you for no reason and without warning, kingdoms on the verge of destruction that refuse an advantageous ceasefire offer, factions that gang up only against human player if that player has a low reputation but not on AI, even if AI is despicable etc. etc. you know what I’m talkin’ about, you lived this nightmare before for sure.

I have been looking at your Milan/France example that you mentioned, and I noticed that you didn't mention the strength of the garison of the town that the french attacked when they betray you. Allies will often attack provinces they see as weak.

And I also noticed that if other factions are Immaculate, they tend to act "sane" most of the time, don't attack their allies so often, so the international situation is more stable.

Interesting. That means that you can focus on improving both yours and your ally's reputation.

Edit: Vlad. I think I'll start looking for my own font from now on.

[Vlad Dracul]

Two months of research and you're calling the diplomacy broken just because you can't get the AI to pay you to annul the alliance?

No idea what you're talkin' about, I didn't research anything for 2 months, mate. If you meant that "How to determine the AI to pay me to cancel an alliance" experiment, that took me just one or two days (I know I did promise I test it a while ago, but couldn't play the game for more than a month).

And I say that diplomacy is broken because allies are attacking you for no reason and without warning. Read that Milan/France story again and if you still don't get it, I can tell a very similar one, between Moors and Papal States.

I have been looking at your Milan/France example that you mentioned, and I noticed that you didn't mention the strength of the garison of the town that the french attacked when they betray you. Allies will often attack provinces they see as weak.

You're suggesting that because my land garrisons were weak (but I don't think they were, the Moors kept landing there so I was forced to keep a decent army to scare them off) they attacked me by sea?! Never thought of that, doesn't make sense at all to me (besides, I remember that in some diplomacy guides on this forum someone insisted that one should not keep large garrisons in provinces that border your allies or else those allies will feel threatened).

A clear proof that diplomacy is broken ideed is the fact that France, despite the fact that everything was perfect between us, decided to backstab me. And all that while 1/3 of french territory was under foreign (not mine) occupation. Instead to fight their enemies (they were at war with at least England), the french choosed to attack an Immaculate loyal ally.

If that ain't broken, I don't know what it is.

It's just like if in real life you'd have 1 or 2 bedrooms of your house occupied by <insert nasty things here, from bugs or poisonous snakes to insane monkies or terrorists or w/e>. What you would do? Get out of your house, enter your best friends home and slap him, right?!

That would be following a very broken logic, methinks.

And Milan-France is just an example, during my campaigns (I played the short campaigns on H/H with all 17 factions and now I started the 6th on VH/VH) I encountred many similar situations but decided to post only one certain situation that defined a pattern the game is following. I think it wouldn't make sense to bore everybody with detailed descriptions for every similar situation I met in most campaigns.

Interesting. That means that you can focus on improving both yours and your ally's reputation.

Yeah, but here's also a catch: if this game had any logic, it would have been kinda dangerous to “boost” factions to Immaculate, because in the eventuality of a war a high reputation would have been an advantage for your enemy; in practice it’s not the case, the reputation level for AI factions doesn’t matter at all, even if they’re despicable nobody gangs up against them (like everybody gangs up against a human player with low reputation).
Also, a human player could use the treacherous AI-behavior in his advantage, ally with a faction that’s very likely to attack and wait for them to betray and then they suffer the consequences.
But since the AI factions suffer no penalty from having a bad rep, well…

P.S.: And about fonts, I would like to have Lucida Blackletter.
Bold.
But since we don't have that here, I decided some serious while ago that Palatino Linotype looks better than Georgia and did stick with it ever since.

[Dr. Conquest]

My two cents: You can technically use's TAW's descr_faction_standing.txt soltuion without the game being unpacked ('file_first = true' in prefs), but you will need to unpack it at least once in order to grab the file. I actually keep a backup of my modified version handy so I don't have to do this al the time.

[BroskiDerpman]

Very useful info, if you want to play dirty. Mwahahahaha ;D I might try this out later.

[Vlad Dracul]

"And we ask the stranger not to kill us in our beds tonight for no damn reason at all"

Marching further with my opinion that diplomacy is broken (allow me just one more rant, I can’t help myself, I hate it dearly plus I just got betrayed once again for no reason in my current campaign), from my point of view it’s like Ukraine would declare war and invade Poland today. With the present situation there, I guess that would be suicidal, don’t you think?

That’s the kind of logic that really bothers me and that’s why I’m sayin’ the diplomacy is broken.

Or should I better say “The diplomacy’s logic is broken, technically the diplomacy works (it’s not bugged, well, when it’s not bugged) and if an ally attacks you for no reason and without warning it’s perfectly ok”.

But for any sane human mind the AI behavior in some moments is simply unacceptable.

The game offers (in theory, at least) all kind of diplomatic options that, if they would work right, would avoid this fracture of logic.

I can accept the fact that alliances aren’t forever, that it’s possible at a certain moment for my interests and one (or more) of my allies to conflict.

If an ally doesn’t like me anymore (although I did NOTHING to offend him) he can break our alliance, no sweat. AI doesn’t get any penalty for low rep, so why should he care?

Or simply negotiate a way out of the alliance, offering me something in exchange for our relations to end there, anything (“We will give you only 1 florin, be so kind and end our alliance now!”), even that “Accept or we’ll attack” message which I saw used correctly only one time during 30+ campaigns.
Just send a God damn diplomat or princess and put an end to it.
Speak your damn mind and maybe I can grant your wish, oh "honorable" ally!

[Now it’s time for the story between The Holy Roman Empire of German Nation (me) and Sicily:

During a long campaign I was long-term ally with Sicily (yup, it’s possible) and both were at war with Byzantines. I saw they want Corinth (and noticed it in the previous games also) but they didn’t actually take it - more precisely, they just dicked some armies around there without sieging - so I did (as I needed all the land I could get).
They sent a diplomat asking for Corinth, “Accept or we’ll attack”. I knew (I knew it!) that this can be a legitimate threat, but decided to ignore it (afterall, everybody threatens me all the time but they never actually attack).
Couple of turns later the sicilians really did attack Corinth. At first I was outraged but I calmed down very quickly, they were right and I was wrong, they offered me a way out of this, I refused so I had to suffer the consequences.

That’s how this game is supposed to work, unfortunately it doesn’t.]

And it’s not even that they would have the slightest chance to gain anything from backstabbing me, so someone could claim that the perfect plan is to attack an enemy that never saw it comin’.
They declare war only to ruin the human player’s gaming experience.

First, I’m not an enemy, I’m their ally. If they didn’t like me in the first place, why accept the alliance?

Second, I did nothing to offend my ally. Meaning I don’t hold any lands a certain faction might possibly want (I learned my lesson, so I don't touch them anymore), don’t use any agents against them, don’t trespass their lands or waters, didn’t vote for the wrong cardinal in papal elections, even have the same religion and a common ally/enemy.

And third, I’d understand if all factions that don’t like the human player would form a big coalition if the human player gets way too powerful, but the game prevents my enemies to form alliances with my allies.
So, the ally that betrays me is acting alone, supported by no one (even worse, when he is already at war with others. And when I usually have 6 more allies by my side and I am no.1 military power).
A suicidal rat against a raging elephant.
I know very few examples in human history when that happened and it always ended terrible for the nation that declared war to everybody.
Not exactly the wisest path to follow, don’t you think?

And another thing, if my allies can attack me at will and I can attack them, why can’t I convince any faction to attack one of its allies? By using that “Attack faction” diplomatic option, I mean.
If attacking an ally is ok, why the game doesn’t give the human player the possibility to persuade a faction to act that way?

Furthermore, what if an ally could betray you in the middle of the battle? If they're able to do that on the strategical map, it should be quite ok to do it on the tactical map also, no?
You start the fight on the same side and notice that instead of attacking the common enemy, your ally will suddenly charge you?
Wouldn’t that be just great?!

It’s true that since I discovered how to reach Immaculate in an easy way (even on very hard game difficulty) allies betray less often (and that’s the main reason I created this topic and insist to bump it, to share the info so others will enjoy the game more), but unfortunately they still do.

And that’s just unacceptable.


L.E.: I wrote this rant (and I'll leave it this way, for everybody to see how frustratin' can it be) a long time ago, way before finding out that the real reason for diplomacy acting this way (givin' the impression that is broken) is actually in the scripts of the game.
So, diplomacy isn't really broken or bugged, it's just designed to be pervert af.

The game creators decided to implement some code-lines in the scripts that give the AI a small chance to attack the human player, regardless of alliance, relation-level, reputation-level or anything else.
So, an ally betrayin' you has nothing to do with anything, except the game scripts that allow this perversion to happen, sometimes.

All the credits for this recent discovery goes to FootSoldier who spent some serious time lookin' in those damn scripts and finding out the perversions that are lurking there.

[Kaiser Nonsense]

Or just download SS and stop crying about this stupid vanilla's diplomacy.

[puddingkip]

Attacking allies in battle was a feature in Shogun and Medieval total war, it rarely got used and thus was dropped. Also it was so exploitable

[UndrState]

Attacking allies in battle was a feature in Shogun and Medieval total war, it rarely got used and thus was dropped. Also it was so exploitable

I remember - it's too bad, though. With so proper negative consequences for betrayal, could've been an interesting addition. Of course, in those games, all you needed to do to join a battle with an ally was, what? be in the same province? Neighbouring province?

[Vlad Dracul]

I feel the need to point out another thing about that "Attack faction" option:
It's funny that if you only promise but don't keep your word, the AI doesn't get a penalty (reputation wise). But it gets a reward if you do keep your word. Same happens if the AI promisses and they don't actually attack, your rep won't drop.
Kinda inbalanced, but one of the few favorable things in this game.

[Vlad Dracul]

I feel the need to insist on certain advantages offered by manipulating diplomacy the way I do:
You don’t need to give money to AI factions in order to raise relations-level; you actually don’t spend (well, except the situations when you really need to convince them to attack someone in order to increase your reputation quickly; plus when you buy provinces from them, but otherwise it’s not worth it to give money), on the contrary, you gain quite a lot (by selling attacks against rebels/other factions to your allies; I noticed that “selling” rebels is more profitable, you can demand more gold than for “selling” other factions. And you can repeat that in the same turn, depending by your diplomats’ position and the possibility of attacking a certain faction/rebels or all factions twice in short intervals – look what a nice income I gathered just because I had 4-5 diplomats at every allies’ door):



And due to those repeated successful deals, your relations with your allies go up.

There is an obvious relation between AI factions wealth and how much they are willing to pay you in exchange for those attacks. It also depends by the relations level between your nations and by how good your diplomats are, more skilled diplomats get better deals, no surprise here.
If the faction is Bankrupt, you won’t get more than 500 florins for an attack; if it’s Meagre then you can ask (depending by your diplomats influence and relations level) from 1.000 up to 1.400 (against rebels) or from 600 up to 800 (against other faction).
From Very Poor factions you can demand up to 1.600 (against rebels) and 900 (factions).
And from Poor factions the maximum numbers are 1.700 and 900.

Those numbers fit mostly the first approach in a turn, for the second you will get fewer florins, as those factions will obviously have less money.

There are some exceptions to those rules (for example, if by giving you 1.400 florins a faction will drop from Meagre to Bankrupt, they won’t pay, so you have to ask 500 in order not to lose their interest), but they usually work just fine.

You know you got maximum profit out of a deal when they Barely Accept it. Just Accepted means you could have asked (and got) more.

I also noticed that during the game the AI tends to create some sort of “alliances blocks”, groups of 4 nations that are all ally to each other; and there are serious chances that if you please one ally, also the relations with another one to go up.

[Vlad Dracul]

Another thing, if their finances are at (just one example) "Meagre", but they refuse to pay you 1.400 to attack Rebels, it means that they're at the edge of being Bankrupt, so try ask for less next time.

And by "Next time" I mean during the same negotiation session.

And by "Less" I'm thinkin' 'bout 500 florins only, in order not to lose their interest and still get the best out of a bad situation.

L.E.: Recently I discovered that it's safe to ask for 600, they agree with that sum. You can push your luck tryin' 700 or 800 if you feel that they could have it, but it's risky, sometimes they just don't want to negotiate any further.

L.L.E.: Another thing, you can use a pervert tactic to get more shekels from the AI, regarding the attacks against other factions that you're "selling".
It's better to Ceasefire (if your enemy agrees, that is) and only after that you go around the medieval known world asking for gold in order to attack someone. AI factions tend to offer more florins for an attack against a nation you're neutral with, than for attacking somebody you're at war with.
The only exception is if they are at war with your target, then they'll give more than those usual 800-1000 florins.

And, of course, you can rinse and repeat that (ceasefire - negotiate - attack - ceasefire etc.) during the same turn (that's why you need lots of diplomats all over the map, have 2-3 for each ally, 1-2 for a neutral nation you can sell those attacks - and therefore you have high relations level - and also 1-2 for each enemy) until the AI factions run out of money. They don't know how to spend it smart anyway, so the gold coins are put to better use in your treasury.

[Matthewcthf]

Yeah, since I made this discovery (both of us talked about it in the General Questions thread some while ago) I end up being Immaculate in every game (I play Vanilla only, not mods), and all my allies also, because I make money by selling my allies attacks against rebels, I ask each of them around 1.000 - 1.400 florins (depending by their wealth and my diplomats' influence) in exchange for an attack and I gain that way around 6k -8k (or even 10 k if I'm lucky) every turn or almost every turn starting with the mid-period of the game.

And I also noticed that if other factions are Immaculate, they tend to act "sane" most of the time, don't attack their allies so often, so the international situation is more stable.

It's very interesting but I play vanilla with Jack Lusted's better AI mod so I get different results. The AI seem to attack less and keep alliances longer. For those like me who play vanilla but without mods than this should be very useful.

[Vlad Dracul]

It's very interesting but I play vanilla with Jack Lusted's better AI mod so I get different results. The AI seem to attack less and keep alliances longer. For those like me who play vanilla but without mods than this should be very useful.

I play Vanilla only and everything I write is about the original version of the game (on very hard level), that's why I didn't make my topics in the numerous mods-sections of this forum.

Did return to the game after one year break and I discovered something, while playin' the moorish short campaign on VH/VH: I managed to convince Sicily to pay me a tribute over a number of turns, but later it seemed they changed their minds and started sieging my very heavily defended Algiers.
Having a couple of diplomats in their territory (and I wish to insist again regarding this aspect, always make diplomats and send them all over the world, it's worth and even necessary to have 2-3 of them in each of your allies kingdoms, but also some at your enemies) I went and looked if they wanted to ceasefire (before retaliating, always try the peaceful solution in those kind of situations regarding factions you don't want to go to war with) and my proposal was considered very generous.

It was the second time when they did that, so my logical conclusion is that when a faction simply doesn't want to pay you anymore, instead of sending a diplomat to negotiate the cancellation of tribute you previously agree, they send an army to siege something of yours or blockade a port, but they don't do that with the real intentions of starting a war.

So, better have your diplomats ready, you can actually get some florins out of this deal (ironically, yeah), depending by how rich is your temporary aggressor. Or determine them to attack a nation or rebels, giving you a reputation-boost. Or, who knows, maybe you can even get a province (ceasefire plus a small sum of gold in exchange of a territory), I never tried it but I think it's possible.

[Vlad Dracul]

I discovered a new trick and I wanna share my findings with you:

While playing the long campaign with Scotland on VH/VH I owned Pamplona, Zaragoza, Toledo and Valencia, while Leon, Lisbon, Cordoba and Granada belonged to Spain (with which I had only a Trade Agreement).
So I had this idea, to offer 40.000 each turn for 10 turns in exchange of Leon, Lisbon and Granada (which the spanish regarded as demanding but they accepted nevertheless) and then attack them and quickly after offer a ceasefire in the same turn, in order to see if I could avoid paying anything for those territories.

They thought that a simple ceasefire was Very Demanding, but strangely after I threw in the Trade Agreement they saw the deal Balanced so I ended up with 3 free provinces.


Pervert, but it works if you have good diplomats and good relations with that certain faction.

[Vlad Dracul]

About diplomats, I found some new things:

The diplomats should be used to negotiate in a certain order, if you want to raise their skill.
When you go around the map having the intention of making diplomatic deals with your allies (or neutrals), start with the youngest ones or the ones with the best growing potential. You’ll notice that some diplomats tend to get more scrolls quicker, almost every time you close deals, so use those first.
The rest should come after that. Leave the old and unskilled ones for the last round of negotiations, if you're gonna use them at all.

The reason for this is that at the beginning of each turn the AI factions have a certain amount of florins at their disposal, an amount that an experimented player can deduce; therefore, in the first round of negotiations you have the best chances of success (and as a consequence the best chances to improve your diplomat's skill).

When it's about negotiatin' with an enemy, the first choice is to logically pick your best diplomat assigned to that faction.

If you accept a counteroffer from a faction, most of the times your diplomat will gain one scroll. Also, when closing a deal that’s regarded as Demanding, your diplomat usually gets +1 influence. The same can happen after a negotiation that increases relations-level and also when you determine a faction to pay tribute to you.

Plus, I discovered that sometimes even if the Ceasefire is regarded as Very Demanding, you can work your way around that (if you're Immaculate and have a high skilled diplomat) by adding Trade Rights, a tribute (usually, between 400 and 600 florins for 15 turns. It seems the AI prefers those 15 turns, rather than receiving more gold in 10 or 20 turns) and even Map Information if it’s the case.


When you send a diplomat/princess to open negotiations with a faction, you probably noticed in the diplomatic window something called “Priorities”. Around 90% of the time that indicator is set to Unknown, but in the rare occasions when it’s not (usually they tend to reveal what they want after the first accepted/refused offer), you’ll see 4 things: Peace, Trade, Military and War.

Knowing how to handle those can help you significantly in your campaign both from the strategic point of view as well as regarding the financial part.

Peace is obvious when you’re at war with that faction (you can take advantage of that and ask for a territory or some florins in exchange of a Ceasefire, they will pay you if they have the gold coins), but when you’re just neutral it means that they want an alliance. If you consider that offer fit for your interests, you can profit of that and gain shekels, territories and reputation (by asking them to attack another faction or the rebels). If not, just pretend you didn’t notice.

Trade is self-explanatory, usually the only advantage you can gain from that deal are hundreds of florins. Or, in rare exceptions, if you’re really lucky and they are so desperate for that agreement, you can even get a settlement.

Military, if you’re allied with that faction it means they want military access, so you can exchange that. If you already did that, it could also mean that they want you to attack certain someone, an enemy they hate dearly. You’ll see them thrilled when you offer an attack against that faction even if you ask for a larger than usual sum of money. Or, depending by situation, you can ask for them to attack somebody they are willing to (look for what they’ll regard as Balanced or Demanding, if you have a good diplomat and high relations-level with them, they’ll agree), therefore increasing your reputation (if they keep their word and really attack).

Regarding War, that occurs only when you’re allied with someone that doesn’t want it anymore, so the best you can do in that situation is to ask them for something in exchange of cancelling the alliance. Depending by the wealth of that faction, you can get serious florins out of them (I got 5k once from the Mongols, but they are rich when they’re invading, normal factions don’t have that amount of gold available, especially if you cash-milk them properly).

[Vlad Dracul]

I feel like I gotta share some stories with you:

In my english long campaign on vh/vh at one point there was a very interesting battle for the Papal Seat, with political implications (ofc).
Sicily had 4 cardinals, Poland also 4, England had 3 while Denmark and Venice had 1 each.
With Sicily I was in neutral relations (literally and figuratively speakin’, the relations-level was at Reasonable which is the neutral point), Denmark and Venice were my allies, but Poland (who also was allied with Venice) started to dislike me more and more after I conquered the former Reich settlements from central Europe (Prague and Magdeburg more precisely, it’s no secret the poles want those since they had Breslau already) and invaded those provinces without attacking.

Now, I couldn’t attack ‘em either because that would’ve cost me the alliance with Venice (remember when I said in a previous post to learn how to provoke a war without you bein’ the aggressor in order for alliances to stick?) and the Pope was old and on the verge of dyin’, so...

The coming elections would’ve look like this:
Sicily – 4
Poland – 4
England – 3 +1 from Denmark = 4

Decisive vote – Venice, with whom I had Perfect relations.

I refrained myself from attackin’ those pesky polaks before the elections (although was quite annoying to follow their full-flag armies with my armies, just in case they decided to siege something), and despite the fact that I had the fewest cardinals from the Preferati-factions, I managed to win with 5-4-4.
5 bein’ the minimum number of votes (if we talk ‘bout a full College of Cardinals, no empty spots) with which someone can win the Papal Elections.

Funny enough, after that the poles did lose their heads and attacked me, so the venetians broke the alliance with them.
And after a few more years the next elections were won by me the same way, 5-4-4.


One more detail 'bout the circumstances in which AI factions vote for you: Alliance is no. 1 criteria.
It's better to have an ally with whom you have bad relations than having Perfect relations with a neutral faction.
AI always votes for their allies.
And the second criteria is the relations-level ofc.
Which brings us back to the importance of diplomacy and how to manipulate it in your favor...


Oh and btw, this story reminds me of replayin’ the oldest save I got, was my second campaign I ever played, a campaign I decided to repair after more than 8 years.
Long story short, the situation was… definitely not good. Playin’ HRE (on moderate), short campaign. Turn 226, got those 20 provinces needed to win and eliminated Milan, but Denmark… well, not that I couldn’t destroy them, but I was even forced to become their vassal, in order to survive. My alliance-network was backwards, had a Mixed reputation, barely had any diplomats, the guilds in towns were wrong, basically everything had to be redone.
Took me 27 turns to do repair everything and achieve victory, my biggest regret is that I didn’t have a save from turn 200, I could’ve managed to win it in term.

Anyway, back to the point.

I really needed to increase my reputation to stop bein’ attacked by everybody all the time, but I didn’t have enough relations-level with anybody. Puttin’ aside the lack of diplomats in key-locations, I couldn’t really offer anything in order to increase the relations which would’ve led to make deals to increase the reputation. The florins I had were quickly spent with re-organizing the empire (barely had any watchtowers, whatta effin’ disaster!). I also needed a good reputation plus good relations with my allies to begin sellin' attacks in order to increase my wealth.

Only one point to start from and that was the Pope.
The current one was 60 years old. My dyin' ally. Nothin' could be done about that.
So, was crucial for the new Pope to like me. To like me quite a lot.
My only hope was to raise the relations with the Papal States from Amiable to the highest level possible.

The political situation was like this: me (no. 3 military power) and Denmark (no. 2) at war with Spain (no. 1), Spain allied with England (which wasn't at war with anybody yet, but it was just a matter of time 'till they'd join the circus).

In the College of Cardinals, the nations with preferati were Denmark (with 4 cardinals), England (also 4), HRE (me, just 2). The only other catholic faction represented there was (as you suspected by now) Spain, with 3 members.

So, no matter how you put it, was the worst combination possible and therefore the danish-german alliance simply couldn’t win, losing with 6-7 instead. And I desperately needed to win.
If only one of the spanish cardinals were among the preferati, instead of mine or the danish one… Then, the enemies’ votes would’ve been divided and my alliance would’ve won 6-4-3.
If only…

Plus, no assassins near any cardinals, to be able to change something.

My relations with England were Amiable, and that simply wasn’t good enough to be in the new Pope’s good graces, especially if I voted for my guy or for the dane. Plus I was at war with the english’s single ally, so ‘til the old Pope died was enough time for the relations-level to go only one way: down, deteriorating with every attack against Spain.

Therefore, I took the apparently risky decision to vote for the future winner, for the representative of my enemy’s ally. I voted for England.

And that proved to be the winning move of the campaign, the relations level between me and the Papal States became good enough for me to determine the Pope to attack some rebels, therefore starting to raise my reputation. With a good reputation, things begun to snowball in the right direction, other nations started to agree to my diplomatic proposals, increasing my rep even more. Step by step, until I achieved Immaculate.
After that, everything was easier and I completed the campaign in turn 253.

Sometimes, in this game (like in life, in general) you simply have to take a controversial decision in order to achieve long-term success.
And to manipulate diplomacy.