How to train your Phalanx: Ceaser's headache

[Alciphron]

All I can say is: try it!

; COMMENTS Phalangitai / Unit ID 321 / Start exp: 0 / Refr rate: 0,044 / Pool cap: 6
type hellenistic infantry phalangitai
dictionary hellenistic_infantry_phalangitai
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Heavy
accent East_Greek
banner faction main_spear
banner holy crusade
soldier Phalangitai, 96, 0, 4, 0.25, 2
officer officer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect horse +1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, frighten_mounted, can_withdraw, pike
move_speed_mod 0.5
formation 0.4, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 5
stat_pri 10, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 5, 1
stat_pri_attr spear, spear_bonus_10, long_pike
stat_sec 2, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, sword, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 5, 2, 2, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground -1, -1, -4, -3
stat_mental 3, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 0
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1589, 385, 170, 724, 1291, 6, 516
stat_stl 9
armour_ug_levels 0
armour_ug_models Phalangitai
ownership f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_hayasdan, f_pontos, f_parthia, f_aedui, f_arverni, f_casse, f_lusotannan, f_sweboz, f_getai, f_saba, f_saka, f_sauromatae, f_numidia, f_pergamon, f_gandhara, f_lugia, f_bosporan, f_arevaci, f_boii, f_nabatu, slave
era 0 f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_pontos, f_pergamon
era 1 f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_pontos, f_pergamon
era 2 f_rome, f_carthage, f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_hayasdan, f_pontos, f_parthia, f_aedui, f_arverni, f_casse, f_lusotannan, f_sweboz, f_getai, f_saba, f_saka, f_sauromatae, f_numidia, f_pergamon, f_gandhara, f_lugia, f_bosporan, f_arevaci, f_boii, f_nabatu
info_pic_dir f_all
card_pic_dir f_all
recruit_priority_offset 5


Credit: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...pike-and-sword

[Swagger]

you do know saying "just try it" isn't much technical info

i'd advise you to post a video/screenshots and details on what you've done, while you code is pretty much straightforward, to the non-modder user all you've just said means pretty much nothing.

[QuintusSertorius]

Try it and it does what, and why should we?

[Ferdiad]

Fixes pikes according to reading he thread he linked. Although Pikes would need their stats nerfed then if they're fixed.

[gustave]

I've tried it and i must say that the behaviour of phalanxes is quite good when put in guard mode, it's actually impressive considering it's medieval 2's engine. Is there a way to make guard mode the default stance for a unit ?

[Alciphron]

you do know saying "just try it" isn't much technical info

i'd advise you to post a video/screenshots and details on what you've done, while you code is pretty much straightforward, to the non-modder user all you've just said means pretty much nothing.

You're right. To be honest I was quite excited so I made up a puny title on the spot and posted. After all, it's mostly there for those who have been looking a solution. I'm hoping that someone more capable will tweak it even further and do a Submod.

Try it and it does what, and why should we?

I honestly thought it was pretty straightforward...

This code modifies the phalangitai unit so that they behave more like an actual phalanx. Now, they will use their swords when cornered. They will decimate any forntal attack, but fare poorly when outflanked. I was unable to test whether they can be used on walls (they should be, I think) but now they can be defeated easily by 2 infantry units attacking from opposite directions.

Of course, this is not perfect. Soldiers will sometimes go past the pikes and hit/kill a phalangite and when they cannot, they are mostly charging in front of the pikes, unable to go further. Nevertheless, the result is definetely acceptable, but could be better I suppose. As I said above, the main reason I posted this was so that someone could improve it further.

[Swagger]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...art-by-default

try this

by enabling guard_mode pikemen get rid of a bug that makes them turn like crazy and fight more agressively. so theyre weaker in melee but from a visual point of view thay still look great. also because the game considers tham as being siege crews he will never send them up a ladder but he'll send them through a breach or a cracked gate.

it's a weird solution but an interesting one

i'd say it's just a matter of finding the balance between which hoplites should have phalanx by default and which ones are long spearmen

[Swagger]

also, in descr_formations_ai there's an option to enable certain 'mentality' of units, it must be coded per unit or per class

• defend - sets units on guard mode, which also disables skirmish and fire at will setting for archers

but AI coding is beyond my coding skills... but editing and testing should do the trick

[Alciphron]

Swagger, those are very interesting findings! Thank you!

[QuintusSertorius]

I honestly thought it was pretty straightforward...

A link, some code and an exhortation to "try this" isn't straightforward, it tells us nothing.

This code modifies the phalangitai unit so that they behave more like an actual phalanx. Now, they will use their swords when cornered. They will decimate any forntal attack, but fare poorly when outflanked. I was unable to test whether they can be used on walls (they should be, I think) but now they can be defeated easily by 2 infantry units attacking from opposite directions.

Of course, this is not perfect. Soldiers will sometimes go past the pikes and hit/kill a phalangite and when they cannot, they are mostly charging in front of the pikes, unable to go further. Nevertheless, the result is definetely acceptable, but could be better I suppose. As I said above, the main reason I posted this was so that someone could improve it further.

This on the other hand, does. Why didn't you just post this in the original post?

[Alciphron]

A link, some code and an exhortation to "try this" isn't straightforward, it tells us nothing.



This on the other hand, does. Why didn't you just post this in the original post?

Yes, you're right. I guess I should avoid being that vague in the future.

I'm thinking of making a submod out of this, although there are no more 5 phalanx units in the game. What do you guys think?

[Swagger]

Yes, you're right. I guess I should avoid being that vague in the future.

I'm thinking of making a submod out of this, although there are no more 5 phalanx units in the game. What do you guys think?

make a test editing first and videos for each version and compare

[Alciphron]

make a test editing first and videos for each version and compare

I'm not motivated to do videos right now. Unfortunately, the videos that Valiant Champion had made can no longer be viewed.

On another note, this is most definetely the best version so far, meaning that they are no other versions for the time being.

Nevertheless, there definetely are more expirements that could be made; increasing mass to 0.3 and reducing height, playing with attack frequency and modifying formations just a tiny bit. These settings wo'nt provide significant variety but, it's something...

So I guess I will continue expirementing and act accordingly. In the meantime, if anyone of you is willing to make a submod and the like, please go ahead.

[QuintusSertorius]

Yes, you're right. I guess I should avoid being that vague in the future.

I'm thinking of making a submod out of this, although there are no more 5 phalanx units in the game. What do you guys think?

Sounds like a good idea to me. There may only be 5 units at present, but fixing (or at least ameliorating) this underlying problem with phalanxes before the final release would be a good thing.

[TWWolfe]

Sounds like a good idea to me. There may only be 5 units at present, but fixing (or at least ameliorating) this underlying problem with phalanxes before the final release would be a good thing.

and don't forget, there will probably be a lot more phalangite units in the final release too!

[Alciphron]

Ok, so I have done some extensive testing and have come with some interesting conclusions.

This whole fix is one very peculiar exploit. What happens is that ONLY the phalagitai of the second line attack with their spears, while the spears of the second line serve as trapping hitboxes. If the formation is tight enough, the first line spears trap the enemy soldiers while those of the second row attack and kill them.

This can also work if the phalangitai of the first line are attacking with the swords. However if the enemy soldiers get close enough the phalangitai of the second line will also draw their swords.

Remember when I said that only the 2nd line attacks? The phalangitai of the 3rd or 4th line will never use their spears. This means that once the 2nd line draws its swords, the phalanx breaks.

There is another value which determines the preferance of the phalangitai for their spears over theri swords. It's useful, but, unfortunately, if the value is too high some units go so close to the second line and can no longer be hit. Then, when they get even closer, the 2nd line drops its shields and the phalanx is ruined.

The OP is, you see, the sweetspot. I assume that Alexgold and/or Valiant Champion found that very sweetspot with extensive testing.

I'm afraid that, unless the mentioned issues are somehow fixed, the OP is as close as we can get to an actual Phalanx (which isn't too bad, but it's a pity because EB2 has great potential).

Meh.

[Alciphron]

Ok, so I have done some extensive testing and have come with some interesting conclusions.

This whole fix is one very peculiar exploit. What happens is that ONLY the phalangitai of the second line attack with their spears, while the spears of the first line serve as trapping hitboxes. If the formation is tight enough, the first line spears trap the enemy soldiers while those of the second row attack and kill them.

This can also work if the phalangitai of the first line are attacking with their swords. However if the enemy soldiers get close enough the phalangitai of the second line will also draw their swords.

Remember when I said that only the 2nd line attacks? The phalangitai of the 3rd or 4th line will never use their spears. This means that once the 2nd line draws its swords, the phalanx breaks.

There is another value which determines the preferance of the phalangitai for their spears over their swords. It's useful, but, unfortunately, if the value is too high some units go so close to the second line and can no longer be hit. Then, when they get even closer, the 2nd line drops its shields and the phalanx is ruined.

The OP is, you see, the sweetspot. I assume that Alexgold and/or Valiant Champion found that very sweetspot with extensive testing.

I'm afraid that, unless the mentioned issues are somehow fixed, the OP is as close as we can get to an actual Phalanx (which isn't too bad, but it's a pity because EB2 has great potential).

Meh.

Full of errors.

How come I can't edit my posts?

[Revan The Great]

If everything you describe is true, that sounds like a pretty good find.

I'll say though, that phalanxes really are not that bad right now. I did some extensive testing last night sending different units against a phalanx where, for example, one unit of Principes attacks them from the front while another unit attacks from the back. The result was that while, visually, the phalanx kind of formed a hedgehog circle there were relatively few losses on my side and the phalanx got slaughtered, albeit slowly.

From a balance standpoint, I don't think that phalanxes are terrible...but of course any improvement is welcome.

[Alciphron]

If everything you describe is true, that sounds like a pretty good find.

I'll say though, that phalanxes really are not that bad right now. I did some extensive testing last night sending different units against a phalanx where, for example, one unit of Principes attacks them from the front while another unit attacks from the back. The result was that while, visually, the phalanx kind of formed a hedgehog circle there were relatively few losses on my side and the phalanx got slaughtered, albeit slowly.

From a balance standpoint, I don't think that phalanxes are terrible...but of course any improvement is welcome.

It definetely is a good find, although credit goes to Alexgold and Valiant Champion. I just stumbled upon of their threads while searching for a solution.

I'd also like to point out that I disagree with you on the phalanges. They are VERY bad. It's a matter of not only balance, but also function, flavor and strategy. But it's a beta so that is understandable.

[Funeh]

What if they are used on guard mod? Do they still form hedgehog?