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Thread: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

  1. #21

    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    What happened later would just happen earlier. Barbarians themselves would use Romans to maintain the walls just as the Romans had used greeks before them for a lot of tech (if not all). How many things do you think the Romans invented?

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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    Quote Originally Posted by crucify_ego View Post
    So hypothetically, gauls take, not sack but completely capture Rome and within a year can steal cut, and erect perfectly square and plum walls, let alone entire enclosed structures of marble. No!


    And I highly doubt that all the skilled tradesmen would wait around to become enslaved by a foreign invader before picking up arms to defend their home.
    I stated in my first comment that it would gradually happen over time. Also, I never said that they would be master stone masons, nor that they would be able to match the Romans. All I am saying is that Rome would not fall into a mess of huts and halls because the Gauls took it over. Most of the structures would remain as they were.

    The majority of people (which includes slaves) would not rise up to defend the city, as shown by the multiple sacks of the city. They also wouldn't be enslaved either. So yes, the city would remain a mostly Latin heritage. On a campaign map it shouldn't be made of wood, which is the point of this thread.

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  3. #23

    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Destraex View Post
    What happened later would just happen earlier. Barbarians themselves would use Romans to maintain the walls just as the Romans had used greeks before them for a lot of tech (if not all). How many things do you think the Romans invented?

    Roads, hydraulics, concrete (cement) to name a few.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    * An early version of cement made with lime, sand, and gravel was used in Mesopotamia in the third millennium B.C. and later in Egypt.
    * The Greeks constructed sophisticated water and hydraulic power systems.
    Other early examples of water power include the Qanat system in ancient Persia and the Turpan water system in ancient China.
    * Brick-paved roads were built in the Indus Valley Civilization on the Indian subcontinent from around the same time. Improvements in metallurgy meant that by 2000 BC stone-cutting tools were generally available in the Middle East and Greece allowing local streets to be paved.[9] Notably, in about 2000 BC, the Minoans built a 50 km paved road from Knossos in north Crete through the mountains to Gortyn and Lebena, a port on the south coast of the island, which had side drains

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  5. #25
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    The best way (probably) is to have a single 'culture' will all available buildings for each factions, but each factions can only build certain type of buildings. This way, even as Rome took Athens they don't have to destroy the original buildings and replace them with Roman buildings.

    But then since this is a game it will probably be of no challenge since the 'cultures' were created in game so that holding a new conquered province be more difficult if they are from different cultures.
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    Why are we discussing barbarians taking over a huge city as a hypothetical and trying to guess what they would do? It happened over and over in history and never did they destroy everything and build a wooden village on the site. They actually were capable of up keeping and even expanding the cities because they made prisoners teach them. Thats not to say the conquerer would adapt the culture of the conquered wholesale necessarily, but they would be influenced by it. When the Roman Empire fell in the west and the major cities across Western Europe were occupied by Germanic tribes did they convert them to wooden hilltop forts? i think not.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    I totally agreed with the OP. its realistically absurd to see wooden village or town wall in the middle of a desert. people in the desert, due to short supply of logs, build their village with mud or sand bricks.
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  8. #28

    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    Quote Originally Posted by texoman81 View Post
    Why are we discussing barbarians taking over a huge city as a hypothetical and trying to guess what they would do? It happened over and over in history and never did they destroy everything and build a wooden village on the site. They actually were capable of up keeping and even expanding the cities because they made prisoners teach them. Thats not to say the conquerer would adapt the culture of the conquered wholesale necessarily, but they would be influenced by it. When the Roman Empire fell in the west and the major cities across Western Europe were occupied by Germanic tribes did they convert them to wooden hilltop forts? i think not.
    Because there are a lot of teenagers posting on this forum who are adept at formulating nonsense arguments, I guess?
    Last edited by stevehoos; September 05, 2014 at 02:03 AM.
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    Quote Originally Posted by Moors of the Far East View Post
    I totally agreed with the OP. its realistically absurd to see wooden village or town wall in the middle of a desert. people in the desert, due to short supply of logs, build their village with mud or sand bricks.
    I guess Pyramids, being made of large stone blocks is absurd and unrealistic too.
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    Quote Originally Posted by ^OvO^ View Post
    I guess Pyramids, being made of large stone blocks is absurd and unrealistic too.
    no that would be realistic because there are stones in the desert, however few trees. A wooden pyramid in Egypt would be absurd.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    Quote Originally Posted by texoman81 View Post
    no that would be realistic because there are stones in the desert, however few trees. A wooden pyramid in Egypt would be absurd.
    North Africa are not all deserts.
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    Quote Originally Posted by ^OvO^ View Post
    North Africa are not all deserts.
    did i say it was? I was speaking only of Egypt which was mostly desert with a fertile strip along the nile and a few oasis. Not enough trees to do large scale building. They did import wood from Phoenicia and other places, but it would not be the main building material because it was rare and expensive.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    actually nearly all the wood was reserved for ships because all the ships they build of stone or brick kept sinking

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    Barbarians could get a reform for their cities after they've come into contact with the civilized world?, maybe city looks are based on regions and not on culture, while the civilized factions would rebuild a barbarian city they would keep an eastern city eastern.
    Something you can do for barbarian city reforms is replace some buildings with other that take exactly the same space. This would mean you don't need to create new maps with pathfinding.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    It's easy to move into a great house, but difficult to build that house.

    When barbarians conquer a "civilized" city, walls, aqueducts, sewers and other passive infrastructure should stay and continue to be used. Temples should be converted to the cult of the invader (or razed if incompatible - a druid religion based on sacred groves probably wouldn't move into a marble temple complex). Barracks should now produce the troops of the invading faction.

    But the invader should not be able to build those walls and aqueducts in their other cities, as that would require adopting those techniques, and that takes a lot longer.
    Last edited by SirRobin; September 05, 2014 at 03:35 AM.
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    It's easy to move into a great house, but difficult to build that house.

    When barbarians conquer a "civilized" city, walls, aqueducts, sewers and other passive infrastructure should stay and continue to be used. Temples should be converted to the cult of the invader (or razed if incompatible - a druid religion based on sacred groves probably wouldn't move into a marble temple complex). Barracks should now produce the troops of the invading faction.

    But the invader should not be able to build those walls and aqueducts in their other cities, as that would require adopting those techniques, and that takes a lot longer.
    yes initially barbarians taking the city of a more advanced civilization would repurpose many of the technologies they didn't understand or just didn't think were necessary. Like say using the aqueducts to water and bathe their horses or putting fish in the baths. Then in time things from the different cultures would merge. Ideal would be once they take a city with more advanced technology it should become available for them to research in the tech tree and only after completing the research could they built the new tech themselves.
    Last edited by texoman81; September 05, 2014 at 03:59 AM.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    Quote Originally Posted by texoman81 View Post
    Like say using the aqueducts to water and bathe their horses or putting fish in the baths.
    Okay, come on, they aren't idiots.

    When a Barbarian faction conquers a city, the only non-Romans in the city are the troops they used to conquer it. Why would two thousand barbarians fill every bath house in Rome with fish, when most of the people still in the settlement are Romans? Why would they do it in the first place?

    "Gaul" does not mean "Club-wielding caveman time traveled into the future."
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    Quote Originally Posted by ♘Top Hat Zebra View Post
    Okay, come on, they aren't idiots.

    When a Barbarian faction conquers a city, the only non-Romans in the city are the troops they used to conquer it. Why would two thousand barbarians fill every bath house in Rome with fish, when most of the people still in the settlement are Romans? Why would they do it in the first place?

    "Gaul" does not mean "Club-wielding caveman time traveled into the future."
    those were just two possibilities off the top of my head. and i wasn't speaking specifically about Rome in that case. In some instances the numbers would be quite different with all of the original inhabitants killed or enslaved and large numbers of the conquorers moving in. and my use of the word barbarian doesn't imply inferior by any means just different. many things that we today would considered more civilized were "barbaric" back to the Greeks and Romans. Soap for instance. Some cultures simply did not bathe and would have found other uses for Roman baths if they took a roman city. Same goes for many other aspects of Roman and Greek civilization.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    I would like certain cities to retain their uniqueness. Such as Rome,Athens,Alexandria
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Barbarization of Hellenic/Latin/Eastern Cities

    Quote Originally Posted by crucify_ego View Post
    So hypothetically, gauls take, not sack but completely capture Rome and within a year can steal cut, and erect perfectly square and plum walls, let alone entire enclosed structures of marble. No!


    And I highly doubt that all the skilled tradesmen would wait around to become enslaved by a foreign invader before picking up arms to defend their home.
    There once was a mongol guy called Djengis Khan that conquered China, Djengis had lived a nomadic life in a tent. So after he conquered China he forced all the chinese to live in a tent and tore down the great wall and replaced it with a wooden one because the mongols werent skilled stonemasons
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