Javeliner TW! im just curious

[Artaserse]

Hallo, this is not a criticism, but it is intended as a compliment, im not a modder, so i dont know if it is a feature (moddable) or if it is just a casual think:

well i noticed, with my very nice surprises, that javeliner in ITW are really effective, cant forget (after have played a lot of mods where your javelin ammo is so insufficient) when i played the first time with celtiberians, and 3 unit of peltast (dont remember the correct name) and 3 units of jineced cavalry (sorry for the spell) unleashed an hell of javelin (the three units of light cavalry where in cantabrian formation), it was a real spectacle, and their ammo was not frustrating low (in other mods i usually dont train javelin units cause they are useless in melee and their javelins are uneffective and go out of ammo after a very small time).

I really "felt" with your mod the power of these units

so the question is:
have you modded it to be more effective and to have a more amount of ammo?
if so it was a really great idea and i hope other mods follow your way.
I repeat it was really funny to see the enemy "really" stormed, and now it is a must to have some skirmishers in your roster, while before i didn't use them very much (at last from the time of vanilla RTW) because they seemed all very poor effective in other mods and just usefull as garrison units...

[Idibil]

We are work in new system battle, we want realisc system battle in final version, where player feel a ancient general. This change system battle of ITW 1.5. Now proyectiles are most tactics that killer.

Soon you can see it, guy

[Artaserse]

Ah, to be sincere, i hope you will not lower down them too much, cause the real fun is that they seem more effective than in other mods, and they are really usefull to thin down the enemy units, as in the reality. Anyway waiting for the new relase and thanks!

[caratacus]

I think that the reason that Javelins are more effective in ITW than other mods is largely to offset the absence of archers, as the lack of arrow head finds on battlefields indicate that archey was not considered a weapon of warfare within the Iberian Peninsula during the time frame the mod is set.

[cherryfunk]

Personally I found the javelins too powerful -- when they can obliterate entire units of heavy infantry, that's not realistic. I think they should be reduced in power.

[Watchman]

I've read close-order heavy infantry was in fact particularly vulnerable to javelins. By what I've read of the weapons they're rather slow fliers and fairly easy for light loose-order troops to dodge, but due to their raw mass behind a narrow tip (compared to for example arrows) have so much momentum and penetrating power shields and all but the heaviest armour are not a reliable defense. And close-order heavy troops obviously don't have much room to dodge.
This obviously goes double for heavier javelins like pilums, solifera and the later angon and spiculum.

Apparently javelin-armed skirmishers could decimate heavy infantry almost at will so long as they had enough room to maneuver (ie. to avoid getting caught and slaughtered in close combat) - as the Greeks found out the hard way in their expeditions into the "Thracian wasteland" - but against their peers didn't normally cause much in the way of casualties. "Javelin duels" like that could presumably go on for a while, as both sides could easily re-use enemy ammunition...

[cherryfunk]

Apparently javelin-armed skirmishers could decimate heavy infantry almost at will so long as they had enough room to maneuver (ie. to avoid getting caught and slaughtered in close combat)

I don't buy that at all -- the unmatched success of Roman heavy infantry wouldn't make any sense if this were true.

[Monkwarrior]

In the final version, the equilibrium will be very important.
It will be difficult to find the correct point, to make javelinmen valuable without the overestimation of their possibilities.

We'll try to find that point.

[Watchman]

I don't buy that at all -- the unmatched success of Roman heavy infantry wouldn't make any sense if this were true.

They tended to bring their own light skirmishers along, you know. And archers. And cavalry. And typically got into serious trouble if faced with skirmisher-heavy enemies without sufficient numbers of their own specimen. The Greeks also started doing a lot better with the Thracians once they copied the peltast concept, although conversely the Thracians nicked the hoplite shieldwall idea in a modified form.

A tactics change was also required for the Romans to deal with the pesky Iberians and their hit-and-run tactics properly...

[CrayonVonCaesar]

If the super powered missle units are bothering you...
Here try my customised export-descr_unit, to tide over till the new patch comes out.
http://files.filefront.com/export_de.../fileinfo.html

(by the way, the itw team stated that they themselves know that missile units are overpowered and this will be fixed next release, so this isnt a critisism)

Changes:
lowered the overpowered missile units in stats and number,
changed the defensive stats of many units to suit how they look ( armour, shield size etc.),
upped morale all units,
lowered the melee power of a few missile units who were previously overpowered for a man with a dagger and no armour.
gave all cavalry a better charge rating
and a few other tweaks for gameplay...

Just make a backup of your export_descr_unit. file first so you can revert if you dont like it..

[cherryfunk]

They tended to bring their own light skirmishers along, you know. And archers. And cavalry.

I'm not saying that skirmishers were useless, and in some cases, when facing isolated heavy infantry, they could triumph as long as they had the space, time and ammunition required. The Romans wouldn't have added javelins to their heavy infantry if the weapon wasn't useful. But in the current ITW javelin units act like machine guns on the Somme, mowing down advancing infantry with a kill rate that, at least from my reading, seems highly unrealistic. I'm glad the team is going to tone it down, because this mod is SO close to being perfect.

[edmont]

In Slitherine's games(Spartan) you can defeat heavy infantry mostly spear based with javeliners in difficult terrain.But RTW don't have those terrain types as they should...

[Artaserse]

Well, I want to try to make explain my point (not from a historical side, but from a gameplay side)

here's what happens in the vast majority of mods:

level I - the very first stages of your campaign

javelin are usefull because:

-they are cheap and you have very few money
-your battle are not fullstack vs fullstack, usually 3/4 units against 3/4 units (usually rebels)
-your general is the power, cause, having these small battles, you use him as a crushing unit, so even if your javelinmen are fighting in melee against a much heavyer troop, you use the general to break this enemy from the back and rout them
-even if javelinmen have very few ammo and their javelin are weak, according to the nature of these small battles, the damage they can inflict to the enemy has some importance, cause as i sayd the enemy have small stack as you.

Level II - the medium and later game

javelin become more and more useless because:

-they are cheap but you have a lot of money
-the battles are fullstack vs fullstack, and the numeber of casualities that they can provide to enemies is so low
-according to the fact that the enemy use often full stack after full stack, it is more difficult to surround from the back with your javelinmen, and even if you succed in this, they are almost useless, cause the enemy is beginning to train better units with more protection + cavalry, so i dont see the point why you have to train javelinmen and try to dodge the enemy and throw javelins from the back, in this case it is very more usefull to train cavalry
-even if you want to use javelinmen as a sort of archers (firing to the front of the enemyes, they are just a waste unit cause their ammo will soon finish against the armour of the enemy without and effective dammage.
-talking of cavalry javelinmen, they become usefull only as a sort of light-cavalry whose task is to pursue routing enemies
-you have a sufficient amount of moneys to train some more effective units that are usefull not only at the start of the battle but even when the battle get the caos point.
-all the points above are true even for the enemies, their javelin become less and less effective as you train better units, and the enemy javelinmen become only a sort of cannon fodders for your cavalry and to gain experience chevrons.
-I dont know if in MP they are used by MP players, but i suppose not so much

in ITW the start of a battle isn't an "ok lets wait the enemy finish his low ammo of javelin without causing me any losses and then start the real battle"
they are effective troops and you can fear them as far as to enjoy them when they are in your stacks.

Some people could blame that they are too much powerfull in this mod, so a suggestion could be:
divide it in 2 class:
-a lower class (poor warriors with no armour and wooden javelin) who is usefull almost only as garrison or in the early stages of your campaign
-a hight class of skilled men with a sufficient ammo and that really can do the difference in the fight, you have to fear those javelin when they are your enemy

from my view, IBW javelin power is very good, they have only to lower a bit the power of the lower class warriors, and of some slingers (I admit it is strange to see 1 unit of your slingers to annihlilate a half of an enemy unit just with 1 shot!)
But i think the power of the highclass javelinmen (the cantabrian cavalry or the jinehed, sorry for the spell) is optimal, and as i sayd it is the first time in a mod when i love to recruit them and to use them in a tactical way.

[Archaalen]

I've read posters (in another forum on this site) suggest that javelineers on horseback actually be made weaker, since it's harder to throw accurately and with sufficient force behind your throw when you're moving and using your other hand to guide the horse.

[Kroz]

When I played it I found Javilineers a tad bit too powerful. I mean a couple formations unloaded on one of my formations and totally destroyed it.

[Watchman]

Well that sounds a bit excessive all right. AFAIK skirmish missile tactics were rarely able to destroy enemies by themselves, but were used more to whittle down their numbers and resolve so they would be that much easier to deal with in hand-to-hand (up to allowing comparatively light skirmish troops engage and rout much heavier stuff after sufficient "softening up").

Maybe you should go through the EDU and take a few points off all the missile attack values ? Just to remove that All Quiet On The Western Front effect...