How fast could Roman armies moblize?

[Moorish guy]

I have been reading up on the Punic wars and other conflicts in roman history during the era, even though generals like Pyrrhus and Hannibal inflicted disastrous defeats on the Romans over and over again they still could continue mobilizing huge well armed formations how?

[Stalins_Elite]

Because the Romans and they're allies had vast amounts of Manpower, where as they're major opponents ie Carthage, Epirus did not.

SE.

[conon394]

I have been reading up on the Punic wars and other conflicts in roman history during the era, even though generals like Pyrrhus and Hannibal inflicted disastrous defeats on the Romans over and over again they still could continue mobilizing huge well armed formations how?

Because they had an effective state structure in the Republic that generally was very effective at getting local elites to buy into, and whose rhetoric sufficiently satisfied the lower classes and allies enough and that was just in general successful (*). The last point is important - very important but so are the first two. Who lost Pyrrhus or Rome? Who lost the First Punic war? (mind you a state that never even manged to beat Syracuse permanently). So even if Hannibal come marching in with a couple victories what does he offer - certainly nothing comparable to the Republic and long term rather poor military track record combine that with Rome's rather solid track record on how bad it could be to 'flip'... well I stick with the SPQR.

* Sure when it got bigger is started breaking at the seams - social war, heavy handed imperial policy in the east, etc. But of course by than it was just too big and its generals had a vast pool of manpower to recruit from...

[Hanny]

Try here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1...20army&f=false

Every year the State had x amount of new 16 year old ready for use, added to those liable for military service either as citizens or allies rendering mil service, its this large pool of human resources any Roman with authority could readily draw upon for service that made the Punic wars wars of attrition, no matter that they lost battle after battle against superior generalship, which was the way the greeks decided wars, a couple battles to settle who was superior followed by a treaty recognising this new supremacy, instead Rome went into wars of attrition that saw superior armies bled out by the superior methods of the legion ( despite being poorly commanded in the norm, as politicaly the state did not want generals becoming dictators and actually made it difficult for generals to learn the craft of war). Rome came to see war not in the greek style of a changing reality of who was in charge, but instead you are under our political domination for ever or your simply gone from history if you dont acept our reality of who is in charge.

[Roma_Victrix]

In the late Republic and Empire, the extensive system of paved roads also allowed the Romans to deploy troops to distant places fairly quickly. The Roman navy, first built during the First Punic War, also allowed them to ferry troops around the Mediterranean. However, this was a bit perilous as the Romans lost many ships and troops to violent storms at sea. Yet every time the Roman navy was wrecked from a huge storm or a defeat at the hands of the Carthaginian navy, they seemed to be able to rebuild their fleet in no time. They must have had an abundant amount of timber on the Italian peninsula in those days.

[Hanny]

Ships were made up out of pre fabricated parts, and laid up in sheds out of water when not required, this fabrication method, copied from Carthage, allowed large numbers of ships to be put into service in a short time span, horses were left behind in most cases when sent by sea, and local mounts aquired instead at destination, see Luttwalk Grand Straergy of the Roman Empire for some insights.http://books.google.co.uk/books/abou...d=fIzyfXF1gh0C

[Cyclops]

Conon and Hanny have summed it up, basically the Roman state included more people who fought for their stake in the Res Publica. Hannibal had to hire or ally with almost every soldier in his army, whereas the Roman state spewed out middle class soldiers every year.

[Edelfred]

But that ended up after the conquest of Gaul influx of millions of slaves has destroyed Roman middle-class . Turning it into olygarchy akin
to low-effective Russian Empire in the Crimean , Japanese Wars

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

That's not true, the Romans had a massive middle class in the Principate. It wasn't until the Late Empire that you begin to see the beginnings of feudalism where the Aristocracy use tax burdens and debts to tie the Citizens to the posessores.

As for mobilization of the Roman Army, I recommend Logistics of the Roman Army at War (264BC -235 AD) by Jonathan P. Roth. If you want, I can email it to you.

[Mangalore]

Conon and Hanny have summed it up, basically the Roman state included more people who fought for their stake in the Res Publica. Hannibal had to hire or ally with almost every soldier in his army, whereas the Roman state spewed out middle class soldiers every year.

Though the Carthaginian mercenary system would a be a worthwhile study in itself. Of all the adversaries of Rome their system seemed to be the only one capable to rival Rome's in mobilization if you take that no other Mediterran power managed to fight several decade long wars of attrition against Rome. Also even with Polybius' estimates of Roman manpower Hannibal's rampage were not happy, fun times for Roman recruitment...

[Roma_Victrix]

Conon and Hanny have summed it up, basically the Roman state included more people who fought for their stake in the Res Publica. Hannibal had to hire or ally with almost every soldier in his army, whereas the Roman state spewed out middle class soldiers every year.

From what I've read, no one explains the unconquerable Roman manpower pool on the Italian peninsula, their auxiliaries, system of allies, and citizen recruitment system better than Klaus Bringmann in his History of the Roman Republic. It's worth a read if you haven't checked it out yet.

[Condottiere 40K]

As far as I know, there's no patron Roman God of Rabbits.

The rules for eligibility might have been a lot more looser under the Carthaginian onslaught, and may have recruited from a younger and older demographic slice to make up the numbers.

[Cyclops]

As far as I know, there's no patron Roman God of Rabbits.....

wink wink

I would love to know more details on what the Carthaginian recruiting systems were. I'm guessing they had a fairly hellenic/hellenistic class system in the home city with hoplite and cav elements, and likewise from their allied Punic city states like Utica. Not sure if the Sacred Band can be counted as professional state troops? They seem top have been selected from asocial class so probably they fit in the "classical" military system.

They had allies like the various Numidian kings, bringing their own followers. They also used mercenaries extensively. I have read Hannibal entered into oathsworn arrangements with some Iberian warriors that may go above and beyond the usual mercenary arrangements.

All these arrangements were available to Romans too (although prior to the First Punic war they wouldn't have had the commercial surplus or buying power of Carthage to acquire as many mercs), they used auxillia and so on but their raw classical levy (that is classes of troops obliged to serve as part of citizenship) seems to have been freaking enormous, because they accepted so many allied and conquered peoples into their polis system.

I think Carthage was able to match Rome because they had a trade economy that gave them the cash and trade goods to raise mercenary forces, and Hanibal had the badassery to acquire sworn followers (IIRC he had a companion called "the Gladiator", I'm imagining he looked like Russell Crowe) able to eat large numbers of Romans.

[Hanny]

http://books.google.co.uk/books/abou...sC&redir_esc=y take a look here cyclops

[Condottiere 40K]

I think if you can restrict the operational area(s), mercenary model works. Once levée en masse is instituted, it's a whole new ball game.