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Thread: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

  1. #1
    Ecthelion's Avatar Great Ramen Connoisseur
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    Default Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Traditionally, Constantine the Great is ranked in at least the top 5 greatest Emperors. But I just cannot for the life of me see why. In fact, I think his reign was the one that put the last nail in the coffin for the Roman Empire. And indeed, after his reign, the West went into terminal decline.

    Let’s review what he did:
    Destroy the Tetrarchy and attempt to rule the Empire as one. This effectively renews the struggle for sole domination of the empire which was what led to the Crisis in the first place. His decision to divide the Empire among 5 successors is nothing short of ludicrous, and fell apart before his corpse was cold.
    Force Christianity upon the empire, thus marking the formal separation of Church and state as he effectively renounces the traditional dual titles of Emperor and Pontifex Maximus, becoming only Emperor in the secular sense.
    Call the Council of Nicea, which not only didn’t resolve the schism over Arianism, but actually made it effectively official.
    Formalize the comitatus/limitanei division. This meant that the best troops were left to wallow far from the conditions at the frontiers, eroding combat readiness and straining the resources of the cities in Gaul and that had to quarter these armies.
    Formalize the adoption of large contingents of foederati under their own ethnic commanders. Effectively putting the Imperial legions proper on the course to irrelevance.
    Completely fail to curtail the inflation problem in silver and copper. He succeeded only with gold, in the solidus. But as only the rich dealt in gold…
    Start a completely meaningless war with the Sassanids under Shapur. This war would eventually consume the resources of the Eastern Empire for the next 3 decades, and claim the life of Julian, the one man who could have turned the Empire around.
    • Won many military victories and was a great general. Except these were all against other Romans.

    In short, he basically built the terminal structure of the late Empire, the structure that would eventually drive it into the ground.

    Worst Emperor eva!
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    Niles Crane's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Sorry, but why do you think Julian is the only man who could have saved the empire? The guy went on a fruitless expedition into Persia on his own initiative. You can't blame Constantine.

    Also, Constantine didn't force Christianity on the empire. If you want to say someone did that, look at Theodosius who actually made Nicene Christianity the state religion. And as far as I know, Gratian was the first to relinquish the title pontifex maximus, not Constantine.
    Last edited by Niles Crane; August 22, 2014 at 02:55 AM.

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    Ecthelion's Avatar Great Ramen Connoisseur
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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Indeed Julian went on his unfortunate expedition for less than practical reasons. But officially it was a continuation of the hostilities started by Constantine and carried on by Constantius II (though he did sign a nominal ceasefire to take care of Julian’s revolt).
    I’m a Julian believer. To me he is a latter day Hadrian who pulled back long enough to realize that the direction of the Empire was completely wrong. And he had already proven himself a capable and creative administrator with his years in Gaul. He was young enough when he took power that 30 or even 40 more years could have really helped the Empire turn a corner.

    You are correct that it was Theodosius and Gratian who finalized the domination of Christianity over paganism, Constantine is the indisputable “game changer” figure who brought about a change that was unlikely to have happened with his personal edicts. Constantine’s support of Christianity was a true decision point in Roman history. And since he could no longer perform religious rituals to Jupiter or Sol Invictus (as that’s the bishop’s job now), he effectively made his ancient title as Pontifex Maximus moot.

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    Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    How did losing the office of Pontifex Maximus doom the empire?

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    Niles Crane's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    How did losing the office of Pontifex Maximus doom the empire?
    Well, it didn't, but Theodosius prohibiting sacrifice to the gods probably did. I mean, it's surely no coincidence that Rome was sacked two decades afterwards, is it???

    (I'll come back with a serious post tomorrow.)

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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Destroy the Tetrarchy

    Since the death of Diocletianus, the tetrarchy had created an endless list of civil wars. It was a failed experiment that needed to go. To say that destroying something so negative weakened the empire makes no sense.

    Force Christianity upon the empire
    Fun fact, he didn't even receive baptmism until on the point of death. Hard to say he forced on the empire something he wasn't so convinced himself about.
    Persecutions of Pagans happened later. So no.
    Start a completely meaningless war with the Sassanids under Shapur.
    Shapur first embassy to the Romans claimed the lands of Armenia, Syria, Egypt and Anatolia as heritage of the Achaemenid Empire. War was inevitable.

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    vikior's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Constantine certainly didn't doom the Empire.

    As Basil already said, the Tetrarchy needed to go. It created non stop civil wars, just like the ones after Constantine's death. With his death, the Empire was divided between his sons, leading to further civil wars.

    Also, the army reform was needed. Something like the limitanei/comitatenses system had to be implemented because the legions of old just couldn't manage to focus on both defending the vast frontiers of the Empire, and attacking at the same time.

    For example, with the old army system, when planning a campaign in the East, one had to withdraw precious legions from the West to bolster his forces, thus weakening the Western frontiers.

    With the new system, field armies could be sent to a point of crisis without weakening the borders significantly, as the limitanei protected those.

    Also, the foederati problem wasn't that significant until many years after Constantine's death. Only after Adrianople did the foederati become a nuisance.

    You say that Constantine built the structure that drove the Empire into the ground. I myself think that he built a structure that allowed the Empire in the West to survive for another century and a half, and the Empire in the East to survive for more than a millenium.

    Also, a bit off topic, I don't think that Julian could have turned the Empire around. Without a doubt, he was a very capable man, but there were many capable men on the throne before him and several after. His war with Shapur was utterly pointless.

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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post

    Force Christianity upon the empire
    Fun fact, he didn't even receive baptmism until on the point of death. Hard to say he forced on the empire something he wasn't so convinced himself about.
    Persecutions of Pagans happened later. So no.

    Fun fact, receiving baptimism on the point of the death was common for many christians, bishops included

    State sanctioned persecution started later yes, but Constatine inaugurated the policy of non PROsecution of christian mob violence.Basically fanatics could do as they wish against pagans with impunity.Finally, christian inner turmoils exploded under his watch.

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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Empires built on solid foundations can bounce back from disasters, military or otherwise. An example would be the Punic Wars.

    Julian might have saved what remained of the Empire, but that would have needed fundamental reform, though not necessarily a repaganization.
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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar Germanico View Post
    Fun fact, receiving baptimism on the point of the death was common for many christians, bishops included
    It doesn't mean anything. Common doesn't make it the rule. It's relative. Still, why wait?
    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar Germanico View Post
    State sanctioned persecution started later yes, but Constatine inaugurated the policy of non PROsecution of christian mob violence.Basically fanatics could do as they wish against pagans with impunity.Finally, christian inner turmoils exploded under his watch.
    True but let's face it, Christians were the ones persecuted until then. Lame ass revenge, still they are humans after all.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    It doesn't mean anything. Common doesn't make it the rule. It's relative. Still, why wait?

    It doesn't mean much yes, it just means enough to render your point moot.Why wait?It's a theological question, basically baptism was considered the final act of a christian religious formation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    True but let's face it, Christians were the ones persecuted until then. Lame ass revenge, still they are humans after all.
    I don't think human revenge feelings had much to do with what happened.Anyway, Christians were persecuted yes, just not as much they claim and often not for the reasons they claim.
    Last edited by Caesar Germanico; August 22, 2014 at 08:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    OP-

    Nah it was Octavian. It was cool and all but doomed to failure at birth (*). It had no coherent system to legitimize Octavian and his heirs and thus was simply a dictatorship of the last man standing. As such it was vulnerable to Military revolt. It lacked any real republican/federal structure that would have allowed such a space to be ruled effectively. It lacked any means of checks on power but revolt by the army. It always lacked a coherent ideology and a sense of its own goals - its size to expand or consolidate and certainty while some leaders did they rather had little means to communicate that to the hoi polloi.

    * But to be fair it had good run better than most so its hard lash it too much - since there are few cities (and I would in way Rome was always just a city) that can say they did not here the boot of foreign army for as long as Rome. Remember what Pericles said:

    "...even if now, in obedience to the general law of decay, we should ever be forced to yield, still it will be remembered that we held rule over more Hellenes than any other Hellenic state, that we sustained the greatest wars against their united or separate powers, and inhabited a city unrivalled by any other in resources or magnitude..." And he was not wrong otherwise countries would not be bickering over the Parthenon art, or Athens be the capital of Greece or anyone still know who Socrates or Plato or Thucydides were (a lot more than can for example name three Persian Kings).

    All things come to an end - to try to pin the end of the Roman empire on one man is is a mistake. It was always brittle.
    Last edited by conon394; August 22, 2014 at 09:18 AM.
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    Anna_Gein's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Wow. As much as indifferent or even slightly hostile I am to Constantine reign I think there are several serious misconception here.

    Destroy the Tetrarchy

    As said before Constantine did not destroyed it by alone even if he participated to this cycle of civil war and was the one victorious. The Tetrarchy did literally fell apart as soon as Diocletian was not in charge anymore. Constantine was certainly not responsible for the civil conflict in Asia Minor or Africa when Maxentius was still alive for example.

    He did not had 5 heirs. And only 3 were still alive and assumed power at his death. While Constantine ended the Tetrarchy, every Roman Emperor of theses time recognize that the Empire was too much threatened to be effectively defended by a single Emperor. At this point the Empire was always divided. At least between an Emperor and a Caesar. His Son Constantius II defeated several usurpers and saw that family ties were not enough to prevent civil wars yet he recognize the need of a Caesar to defend the half where he could not be.

    Force Christianity upon the empire

    I hope you don't see Christianity as responsible for the Empire fall. In any case Constantine did not enforced Christianity across the Empire. Pagan rites remained in existence in the official celebrations. For example when Constantinople is dedicated on 11 mai 330, it happens with pagan rites and pagan religious responsible. Constantine did confiscated some temples and destroyed some other but it did not happened on a grand scale. On the contrary the State continued to financially support pagan temples.

    Call the Council of Nicea

    First I don't see how it was a bad thing in itself. Then you are extremely sever here. Until then Christianity as propagated itself without clear organization. It was made of a great number of different sects with different usages and beliefs. Constantine, by his tolerant and non-interventionism posture certainly allowed the Arianism to remain. But his son Constantius II, himself Arian and, contrary to his father, interventionist, was certainly more decisive to give weight to the Arian movement.
    Additionally you should realize how much difficult it was for the emperors to intervene in the theologian debates. First it was not considered their place to decide the result of a council but just to convoke it. Then even if they attempt to act with a bit of brutality, the priests were not the most easily population to deal with as a lot of them welcomed exile for their religious belief.

    Formalize the comitus/limitanei division

    Except he did not. The only time when he took troops from the frontier to incorporate them into his personally led army, it was in his march against Maxentius who had a greater army. Constantine took troops from the Gallic frontier. But he did so after he campaigned against the Germans there. Latter he may be accused to have a larger comitus but what he did was in fact to keep the comitus troops of the defeated Tetrarch and incorporate them in his own. So there was technically not a vast increase of Comitus troops in disfavor to frontier troops. That's for Constantine.
    Then the division between Comitenses and Limitanei is a debated topic. While it received a lot of success in the past, Most historians now agree it did not happened. At least not as it is still commonly portraited on the web (*caught* wikipedia *caught). See Yann Le Bohec for example. In fact "limitanei" did not even existed in Constantine time. The term "ripenses was used instead.

    Formalize the adoption of contigents of foederati under their own ethnic commanders

    As said by vikior, foederati troops were not that much important under his reign. Foreign troops have been in the Roman Army since the very beginning of the Republic. Gothic soldiers serving Rome were around since the III century AD. Since the first time this people was identified by the Romans. Constantine indeed recruited in large number Foederati soldiers at the same time he took troops from the Gallic frontier to battle Maxentius, but he was not the first to do in this period. His father, Constantius Chlorus settled foederati troops in Britain for example. More importantly "foederati" started to designate full units only by the time of Theodosius I. Until then it referred to the soldiers on an individual basis. It is only when Goths were settled in Roman territory and allowed to keep their ethnic structure following the Roman lost war in the Gothic War of (376-382) that they became a danger to Rome.

    Completely fail to curtail the inflation problem in silver and copper.

    Inflation have been there during the whole imperial era. True Constantine was unable to stop it but so were all emperors. The economical knowledge was limited in this time. Diocletian attempted to deal with in with profound reforms but the result was catastrophic and the attempt cancelled during his own life. Constantine probably increased further the tax to meet the needs of the Empire defence.

    Start a completely meaningless war with the Sassanids under Shapur.

    A conflict with the Sassanids was bound to happen. Ammianus Marcellinus says the war was started by Constantine. On the Opposite Theophanes says it was the Persians who started it. Shapur II was certainly determined to re-claim Persians territories lost to Diocletian and take more if possible. Julian was remarkably bad in his management of this conflict. Odd considering how good he was in Gaul. He was the one who attempted to turn this conflict from a defensive one to the conquest of Persia.

    Won many military victories and was a great general. Except theses were all against other Romans.

    This is untrue. I fear you are badly informed on his reign.


    As a conclusion, you should be prudent to not assign all radical change to a single man. The Empire was in an intensive but progressive phase of evolution. Constantine did offered some but he was not alone. Both his predecessors and his successors added their parts.
    Last edited by Anna_Gein; August 22, 2014 at 11:15 AM.

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    Ecthelion's Avatar Great Ramen Connoisseur
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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna_Gein View Post
    Wow. As much as indifferent or even slightly hostile I am to Constantine reign I think there are several serious misconception here.

    Destroy the Tetrarchy

    As said before Constantine did not destroyed it by alone even if he participated to this cycle of civil war and was the one victorious. One would say that the defeat and execution of the other Tetrarchs qualifies as "destroying". He could easily has settled with Licinus and divided the Empire in half as it was always meant to be. But he let his ambition and Christian beliefs get ahead of him and provoked Licinius to action. The Tetrarchy did literally fell apart as soon as Diocletian was not in charge anymore. Constantine was certainly not responsible for the civil conflict in Asia Minor or Africa when Maxentius was still alive for example.

    He did not had 5 heirs. And only 3 were still alive and assumed power at his death. No. He appointed 5 heirs. Which was crazy and bound to fail, and when these things start failing, they keep failing, like the Tetrarchy. Constantius II killed Dalmatius and Hannibalianus when he purged the family line immediately following Constantine's death. While Constantine ended the Tetrarchy, every Roman Emperor of theses time recognize that the Empire was too much threatened to be effectively defended by a single Emperor. At this point the Empire was always divided. At least between an Emperor and a Caesar. His Son Constantius II defeated several usurpers and saw that family ties were not enough to prevent civil wars yet he recognize the need of a Caesar to defend the half where he could not be.

    Force Christianity upon the empire

    I hope you don't see Christianity as responsible for the Empire fall. I do. Gibbon was right, and has always been right. Like I said with the divorcing of the Church from the state, the authority of the state can rest on many things, and religion is one of them. By separating Imperial authority from divine authority, it meant that the Empire itself was no longer sacrosanct. This creates all kinds of problems for the mandate to rule. In any case Constantine did not enforced Christianity across the Empire. Except he did. Christianity became the official religion of the Empire, all public sponsorship of pagan institutions was cut off and diverted to Christian ones. And he made is super clear that anyone wishing to climb the Imperial hierarchy had better be Christian. He stopped just short of actually killing pagans outright. Pagan rites remained in existence in the official celebrations. For example when Constantinople is dedicated on 11 mai 330, it happens with pagan rites and pagan religious responsible. Constantine did confiscated some temples and destroyed some other but it did not happened on a grand scale. On the contrary the State continued to financially support pagan temples.

    Call the Council of Nicea

    First I don't see how it was a bad thing in itself. Then you are extremely sever here. Until then Christianity as propagated itself without clear organization. It was made of a great number of different sects with different usages and beliefs. Constantine, by his tolerant and non-interventionism posture certainly allowed the Arianism to remain. But his son Constantius II, himself Arian and, contrary to his father, interventionist, was certainly more decisive to give weight to the Arian movement.
    Additionally you should realize how much difficult it was for the emperors to intervene in the theologian debates. First it was not considered their place to decide the result of a council but just to convoke it. Then even if they attempt to act with a bit of brutality, the priests were not the most easily population to deal with as a lot of them welcomed exile for their religious belief.
    I should have explain this one more clearly. Religions will always fracture and divide. That's the way theology works. Had he just let Arianism play its course, it might have remained isolated in Egypt. But by forcing the decision at Nicea, and then not actually forcing it as he let Arius the man himself off the hook, he gave Arianism the best boost it could hope for. Making something "heretical" just makes it cooler. Do you think it's an accident that one of his heirs just happened to be an Arian? There's no such thing as bad publicity.

    Formalize the comitus/limitanei division

    Except he did not. Except he did. Check your sources. If not Constantine then who? And yes, there is still some confusion on how exactly the system worked and Vegetius is just not all too helpful on the matter. However, we can all agree the result was disastrous. Both the Rhine and Danube frontiers deteriorated to the point where they effectively ceased to exist. And how could they when you've placed the best troops at the back. It's not 1942 on the Eastern Front. Logistics back then meant that the field armies in the rear were weeks or months away from an effective response. The only time when he took troops from the frontier to incorporate them into his personally led army, it was in his march against Maxentius who had a greater army. Constantine took troops from the Gallic frontier. But he did so after he campaigned against the Germans there. Latter he may be accused to have a larger comitus but what he did was in fact to keep the comitus troops of the defeated Tetrarch and incorporate them in his own. So there was technically not a vast increase of Comitus troops in disfavor to frontier troops. That's for Constantine.
    Then the division between Comitenses and Limitanei is a debated topic. While it received a lot of success in the past, Most historians now agree it did not happened. At least not as it is still commonly portraited on the web (*caught* wikipedia *caught). See Yann Le Bohec for example. In fact "limitanei" did not even existed in Constantine time. The term "ripenses was used instead.

    Formalize the adoption of contigents of foederati under their own ethnic commanders

    As said by vikior, foederati troops were not that much important under his reign. Foreign troops have been in the Roman Army since the very beginning of the Republic. Gothic soldiers serving Rome were around since the III century AD. Since the first time this people was identified by the Romans. Constantine indeed recruited in large number Foederati soldiers at the same time he took troops from the Gallic frontier to battle Maxentius, but he was not the first to do in this period. His father, Constantius Chlorus settled foederati troops in Britain for example. More importantly "foederati" started to designate full units only by the time of Theodosius I. Until then it referred to the soldiers on an individual basis. It is only when Goths were settled in Roman territory and allowed to keep their ethnic structure following the Roman lost war in the Gothic War of (376-382) that they became a danger to Rome.

    This assessment completely ignores the key point. Auxiliaries or foederati are just fine until they get grouped into large, army-sized contingents and fall under the command of their own ethnic commanders. Constantine's victories were not the work of God or Chi-Ro, they were cause he led an army whose core was composed of the Franks. In fact his own personal bodyguard detachment was all Frankish, headed by a Frank. He used an expedient to gain the throne and it eventually led to the end of Roman control of the Roman army

    Completely fail to curtail the inflation problem in silver and copper.

    Inflation have been there during the whole imperial era. True Constantine was unable to stop it but so were all emperors. The economical knowledge was limited in this time. Diocletian attempted to deal with in with profound reforms but the result was catastrophic and the attempt cancelled during his own life. Constantine probably increased further the tax to meet the needs of the Empire defence.

    Fair enough, inflation was not gonna stop anytime soon.

    Start a completely meaningless war with the Sassanids under Shapur.

    A conflict with the Sassanids was bound to happen. Ammianus Marcellinus says the war was started by Constantine. On the Opposite Theophanes says it was the Persians who started it. Shapur II was certainly determined to re-claim Persians territories lost to Diocletian and take more if possible. Julian was remarkably bad in his management of this conflict. Odd considering how good he was in Gaul. He was the one who attempted to turn this conflict from a defensive one to the conquest of Persia.

    You're missing the two major things Constantine did to provoke the war: 1. appointment of Hannibalianus as the border marshal of sort in the East with titular claims to territories of the Sassanids. 2. Sending a formal letter to Shapur putting him on notice that the Christians of his domain were under Rome's protection. This is a huge insult to any sovereign state. Shapur would have been seen as weak to ignore it. If Shapur wasn't tied up with other fronts at the time, he would have invaded immediately rather than waiting till Constantine was dead.

    Won many military victories and was a great general. Except theses were all against other Romans.

    This is untrue. I fear you are badly informed on his reign.

    Name me one major campaign against a foreign enemy that's even close to the scale of his 10 year civil war against the other Tetrarchs. He recovered some Dacia from his Danube campaigns and made a few incurisons across the Rhine, but what half way decent Emperor didn't when posted to those frontiers? None of these campaigns had any lasting effect. Dacia was lost soon again and the Rhine and Danube frontiers were alive and kicking again less then 5 years after his death.

    As a conclusion, you should be prudent to not assign all radical change to a single man. The Empire was in an intensive but progressive phase of evolution. Constantine did offered some but he was not alone. Both his predecessors and his successors added their parts.
    Constantine was a turning point in the Empire in every sense of the word. Even if you ignore all else, the adoption of Christianity along is enough. Christianity would never have become a state religion were it not for Constantine. None of the other Tetrarchs were Christian, in fact the Illyrian officer cabal of which Constantius I was a product of was staunchly anti-Christian. The triumph of Christianity across Europe, especially in the West where it had almost no adherents prior to Constantine, was made possible only because of Constantine. And wow... this thread has turned into a lot more fun than I had expected

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    Ecthelion's Avatar Great Ramen Connoisseur
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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    OP-

    Nah it was Octavian. It was cool and all but doomed to failure at birth (*).
    I can agree to this. In fact, I blame Scipio Africanus for formalizing the end of the 1 year proconsul term, and thus creating the idea of the Roman army that owed it allegiance first to the commander, and to the Republic second. In a way, Hannibal did destroy the Roman Republic, it just took 600 years more than he had expected.
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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar Germanico View Post
    It doesn't mean much yes, it just means enough to render your point moot.Why wait?It's a theological question, basically baptism was considered the final act of a christian religious formation.
    Not really. If we had any evidence of it being his choice, yes. But it's just your theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar Germanico View Post
    I don't think human revenge feelings had much to do with what happened.Anyway, Christians were persecuted yes, just not as much they claim and often not for the reasons they claim.
    That or religious fanaticism, or both. History is literally filled with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ecthelion View Post
    I can agree to this. In fact, I blame Scipio Africanus for formalizing the end of the 1 year proconsul term, and thus creating the idea of the Roman army that owed it allegiance first to the commander, and to the Republic second. In a way, Hannibal did destroy the Roman Republic, it just took 600 years more than he had expected.
    Kind of off topic but nah. The reforms necessary to stop Hannibal made Rome the unstobbable force that went on ruling the entire Mediterranean area. Ironic that he exploited the weaknesses of the Roman Republic to the point they had to become the perfect war machine or perish.


    @Anna Gein
    I hope you don't see Christianity as responsible for the Empire fall.

    Although it wasn't exactly a point of strenght. Even if we look at the Eastern part that went on for another millennia, Christianity doesn't really come out as a great collant. Monophysitism alone caused more than a civil war and had an impact comparable to that of Protestantism for the Catholic Church or the Shia for Islam. Even worse, Monophysites ended up preferring being subjects of Muslims than being persecuted by Orthodoxes, facilitating the Islamic conquest of the Levant.
    And then you had Iconoclasts and another pair of full scale internal conflicts.
    And Paulicians deserting en masse to Muslims for the same reason Monophysites did.
    And then all the diatribes with Pope...

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    Anna_Gein's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    I hope you don't see Christianity as responsible for the Empire fall.

    Although it wasn't exactly a point of strenght. Even if we look at the Eastern part that went on for another millennia, Christianity doesn't really come out as a great collant. Monophysitism alone caused more than a civil war and had an impact comparable to that of Protestantism for the Catholic Church or the Shia for Islam. Even worse, Monophysites ended up preferring being subjects of Muslims than being persecuted by Orthodoxes, facilitating the Islamic conquest of the Levant.
    And then you had Iconoclasts and another pair of full scale internal conflicts.
    And Paulicians deserting en masse to Muslims for the same reason Monophysites did.
    And then all the diatribes with Pope...
    I need to read again about the Monophysitism as I don't remember it causing a civil war. But for sure I would not say the Muslim conquest was decisively facilitated by it. The areas have been occupied by the Sassanids who capitalize on the theologian disagreement during a decade. But even then the Syrian conquest had for example some surprising events. The strong place of Hellenism including Antioch opposed little to no resistance while Arab communities resisted. But I agree Byzance lost its Ghassanids allies stupidly because of theologians issues.

    Even then you can agree all of it had little to do with the fall of the Western part. This is my point on this matter. The OP sounded as if Christianity was in itself a reason why the Empire was overan by the Germanic migrations. By the way he made he mistake in his conclusion that the Emperor became a secular figure. It was the opposite. But his divine essence was different.

    It will take me longer to reply on the other points. If I can do it before I go in vacations (tomorrow). I just want to immediately reply on the Comitenses/Limitanei thing. If you want my sources you can check Yann Le Bohec. His book is not the most enjoyable to read but is recent and propose and easily surpass the hundred of references. So it's a good starting point.

    If you want I can give you plenty of book name on the Late Roman Army. The peasant/soldiers were only presented in the Historia Augustata which is an highly unreliable source. The thesis of Comitenses/limitanei was first formulated when historians took it seriously (before we discovered the true date of the text who lied about it). It was firmly supported and developed in a second time by E.N.Luttwak who, with all respect , is not even an historian and applied modern conception. It is him who develop the thesis of in-depth defense. But as you said, such conception is hard to integrate in the Roman world.

    You can check the Notitia Dignitatum. You will notice that Comitenses units are not kept all together in reserve but deploy among the provincial armies.

    As you mention the disappearance of the Rhine frontier I fear you identify the recruitment crisis with an hypothetical Comitenses/Limitanei opposition but thoses are two different topics.


    More to come latter.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecthelion View Post
    Formalize the comitatus/limitanei division. This meant that the best troops were left to wallow far from the conditions at the frontiers, eroding combat readiness and straining the resources of the cities in Gaul and that had to quarter these armies.
    Okay, I'm going to try and be nice in explaining why this is horribly wrong:

    1. The first official Limitanei were created under Constantine in 312 AD when he created the Riparienses Garrisons on the Rhine. By 324, he had formalized this across the Empire. Limitanei were originally Vexiliationes of Roman Legions and the former Auxilia units, and many Legions themselves were graded as Limitanei.

    2. Contrary to popular belief, the role of the Comitatenses was not to fight large barbarian incursions. This was the Limitanei's job, and it was their role to be the quality, experienced front-line soldiers that defended the Empire. The Comitatenses, originally, were created as localized central field armies to combat usurpers to the Emperor. In fact, when Gallenius created the first informal Comitatus in 268, he did so to secure his position as Emperor and combat potential rivals.

    The difference between the Comitatenses and Limitanei, who were not neglected and not lower quality (well... they could be at times but that happened under any general or commander in any time period), was priveleges: the Comitatenses had more tax breaks and a few more legal rights than the Limitanei did. The decay in quality of the Limitanei didn't begin until after the death of Aetius in 454.

    Formalize the adoption of large contingents of foederati under their own ethnic commanders. Effectively putting the Imperial legions proper on the course to irrelevance.
    This is completely mistaken. The standard method of recruitment of barbarians via a Foedus, or treaty, was to recruit them as regular miles. These men were recruited like Roman citizens, trained like Roman soldiers, supplied with equipment from centralized arms factories, and they fought in regular Roman units. Why? Simple. The Romans knew they could never keep the barbarians out, and ideologically their empire had no borders. They therefore chose to assimilate other peoples into the Roman way of life, and recruiting them into the army helped spread Roman-ness and Roman influence.

    And contrary to popular belief, there was no "Barbarization" of the army. Most of the equipment and other changes associated with the Late Roman army were influence via the Civilized, powerful Sassanid Persian Empire (Eranshahr). The Romans spread this quickly across the Empire, and as the Fernpass helmet shows, it had an effect on the Barbarians as well who wanted to look like the Romans they wanted to be a part of.

    The recruitment of "Foederati" or barbarians under their own commanders, was a temporary arrangement done in times of crisis, like the (failed, thanks to the foederati) re-conquest of Spain in 446, or the Great Hunnic war of 451.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna_Gein View Post
    I need to read again about the Monophysitism as I don't remember it causing a civil war. But for sure I would not say the Muslim conquest was decisively facilitated by it. The areas have been occupied by the Sassanids who capitalize on the theologian disagreement during a decade. But even then the Syrian conquest had for example some surprising events. The strong place of Hellenism including Antioch opposed little to no resistance while Arab communities resisted. But I agree Byzance lost its Ghassanids allies stupidly because of theologians issues.
    I'll correct myself, conflicts is definitely a more appropriate term than civil wars.
    As for the rest it's obviously difficult to quantify the impact, but it was definitely a factor. As you mentioned even the Sassanids could capitalize on that. A religiously cohese empire might have offered a stronger opposition (it did later as the Muslims were stopped).
    Quote Originally Posted by Anna_Gein View Post
    Even then you can agree all of it had little to do with the fall of the Western part. This is my point on this matter. The OP sounded as if Christianity was in itself a reason why the Empire was overan by the Germanic migrations. By the way he made he mistake in his conclusion that the Emperor became a secular figure. It was the opposite. But his divine essence was different.
    It goes more into the context of cultural decline of the empire. Paganism definitely fit more into the early warlike Republic and was a pillar of strenght but by the time of Costantine it was a dying religion. If it wasn't Christianity to replace it it would have been Mithraism or something else.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Was Constantine the man who ultimately doomed the Empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    OP-

    Nah it was Octavian. It was cool and all but doomed to failure at birth (*). It had no coherent system to legitimize Octavian and his heirs and thus was simply a dictatorship of the last man standing. As such it was vulnerable to Military revolt. It lacked any real republican/federal structure that would have allowed such a space to be ruled effectively. It lacked any means of checks on power but revolt by the army. It always lacked a coherent ideology and a sense of its own goals - its size to expand or consolidate and certainty while some leaders did they rather had little means to communicate that to the hoi polloi.
    .
    Well in Octavian's defense, he did establish the Praetorian Guard, and it was often they who had the power to declare or dispose of Emperors; but yeah, maybe coherent but probably not republican in anyway. And if I'm not mistaken though, it was actually Constantine who did away with the guard.

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