Sub-forums for major sub-mods?! Feel invited to vote and discuss.

[Casual Tactician]

Hi there, TATW und TATW-submod fans!

I recently asked the devs of one of the big submods here (I don't want to say which one, to stay at least a little bit impartial), if they could have their own sub-forum, as - imho - they really deserve it and I guess it could make development (but certainly at least bug-reporting and feedback) easier. For example, in the forum of good, old EB1, a submod has it's own sub-forum, as you can see in the below image.

Spoiler for example of sub-forum for a submod: 

Though due to an "unanimous moderaton decision", that was not possible for any of TATW's big submods, I was told by one of the devs of that afore mentioned big TATW submod. To me that's somewhat harsh and also unfair, as the devs of some submods here have really put an enormous amount of work into their submods. Imho, TATW (as well as SS for that matter) are simply such popular and well-made mods, that their big submods do deserve sub-forums of their own.
Criteria could be, for example: number of replies in their threads, amount of downloads (hard to verify though), size of the dev team, size of the mod... etc., as to limit the number of 'submod sub-forums' to not over five (only my opinion though). They could then be placed here, with eg. an additional 'Sub Mod'-prefix to their name:

Spoiler for location for possible new submod sub-forums: 

So my question is:

Are you in favour of big, major TATW-submods having their own sub-forums - Yes or No?



Sincerly, Casual Tactician


PS: This post might seem disrespectful towards the moderators and their decision, but that's not the intent of this post. I simply want to find out what the opinon of the TATW community is. And if it's in favour of the idea, perhaps the moderators could then at least reconsider their decision. Again, my personal opinion is, that sub-forums for submods would be a great thing - esp. for such highly popular, famous and well-crafted mods as TATW (and SS).

[Ngugi]

We're not offended
Nor do we oppose suggestions, while we do request a solid argumentation for pro's, as it's an old request where pro's & con's been weighted and concluded before

Look at this moment at the first page of the TATW Submods-forum, and we see

MOS
a MOS submod
Alternative Patch
DaC (both active threads)
PCP
FRoGS
Baron Samedi's

The big mods do not suffer being 'lost in the subforum activity', they are the subforum activity, which is resonable for a forum for TATW submods.
All we would gain by giving them their own forums, beside yield to modders ego* and the fan clubs appriciation, is a main subforum that exist for the sake of the submods and fulfill it's purpose drained on activity and life. We will get more subforums to administer and who are harder to navigate and less accessable for newcomers due to plain numbers, undoubtly more threads created in such subforums for matters that as today obviously can be handled in main threads perfectly fine, TATW players and modders further diversed, into subsections, and adding nothing practical that is not covered currently.
That's the current perception and arguments upon which the subforum is not split up.

regards Ngugi


* which is not a judgment but a respectful conclusion; I was a core MOS member when it dominated among submods and we asked for a subforum, and is friend or least good acquaintance with most of the old and new big modders here, I know the drill around the topic.

[Casual Tactician]

We're not offended
Nor do we oppose suggestions, while we do request a solid argumentation for pro's, as it's an old request where pro's & con's been weighted and concluded before

Then please let me explain in some more detail. And +rep [EDIT: sorry, I have to wait till I can give you more +rep again] for your respectfull smilies, they are well appreciated on my side! I hope all further posters (if any) will keep to this standard.


Now let's start...

The big mods do not suffer being 'lost in the subforum activity'

I agree that they don’t ‘suffer’ as such, but for newcomers to TATW submods - and even old fanboys and fangirls - the current setup isn’t ideal imo. As it’s hard to get a good overview of what the big submods offer, due to a lack of multiple threads presenting and discussing the many new features (and in some cases also factions) they have.

yield to modders ego* and the fan clubs appriciation

To be honest, exactly that’s what a fan-based forum for modifications should be doing – not so much to the ‘modders ego’ though, I agree. Also I was thinking, how much more convenient it would be for players as myself, if these big submods had more space for a better presentation and feedback.

drained on activity and life

Having, say, the biggest five or so submods in their own subforums would free up the actual submod-forum for newcomer-submods and the smaller existing ones. Sure, some activity would move elsewhere, but the emphasis here is on move – it wouldn’t disappear. Also it frees up space for all the other smaller submods and allows these to thrive unhindered by the top dogs of the business.

We will get more subforums to administer

I'm confident that the TWC staff will be able to manage a few new subforums. The TWC could always recruit new staff for that Herculean task though, if need be.

harder to navigate and less accessable for newcomers due to plain numbers

I heavily assume that most TWC members and visitors are capable of clicking their left mouse-button two or three times to switch to a different part of the TATW forum without any trouble – or to create a few new bookmarks.
Imo, having the biggest submods in their own subforums, would actually make it far more easy for newcomers, as the can have a good look at the then much better presented big submods - plus the main submod-forum then has more space for all the smaller and/or newer submods.

TATW players and modders further diversed, into subsections

TATW imo is more or less a complete game in it's own right - both quality- and fanbase-wise. If there’s one mod that can handle further diversification (why ‘further’ btw, there's currently only one submod thread?), then it’s surely TATW. What you call diversification, is to me an evolution of how the single biggest mod in the TWC is presented. I guess when the current TWC-structures were implemented, nobody imagined the success and demand a single mod such as TATW would have.

adding nothing practical that is not covered currently.

This point I strongly oppose. If major submods could open up threads on specific features or factions, that would make them more accessible and offer players more space (ie. threads) for better feedback, suggestions and questions. Currently feedback can easily get lost or overlooked, as the big submods only have a single thread for all of these issues.
I’d even argue, that giving big submods their own subforum, would encourage players to get more involved in the submods, as they could open up new threads on specific issues they have, post AARs, create screenshot-threads and discuss all kinds of (fun) topics in distinct threads.
And the dev-teams would have the opportunity to submit stickied threads on eg.: FAQ, download & installation, bug reporting, suggestions for next release, features/faction previews etc. I really can't see any downside to giving the biggest submods their own subforums.


Regards!

[Radagaisus]

The reason there should be a submod forum, apart from what Casual Tactician has already said, is the original game - 3.2 - hasn't been updated in years. The five main submods have become mods in their own right by now (owing alot to the original obviously)... Some of them have several thousand posts. (edit: And hundreds of thousands of views, not posts )

[manekemaan]

I also like the idea of a subforum for some big mods.

Example mos: In the past I would like to occasionally post somethingh about my in game experience or a suggestion or whatnot. What I often noticed is that they got lost in the ammount of people asking for help about installing or or having a crash etc etc.

Having a submod subforum would solve this and allow small talk about the mod, a suggestion topic a bug reporting topic a faq (specifically about the mod) with a topic where all these questions can be asked etc etc...

I believe that the subforum would indeed lose some of its activity. But right now i only go there for MOS and RK. I think that when those mods are moved out of there it will allow the "smaller" mods more breathing room and less competition to be noticed.

I also like the point of Radagaisus that indeed TATW modding activity has been completely moved to the submods so they should be the one having bug report topics etc instead of TATW itself.

[ElvenKind]

Which would be those five major submods?

[Arandir Tur-Anion de Bodemloze]

DaC, Mos, Frogs, PCP and leo's patch. BS compilation is too old in my opinion

[Casual Tactician]

Which would be those five major submods?

It wouldn't necessarily have to be exactly five submods. But, as you imply, the criteria would have to be discussed and aproved. Though imo it's fairly obvious which mods should have an own subforum. I'd suggest to chose them based on the replies they have in their most prominent thread(s) - though that's only my opinion.

And please don't consider this thread as some kind of rebellion vs the TWC staff or such. That's not the intent at all. What's so bad about big mods having their own subforum? EB1 did it, and nothing bad happend. Also please view post #3, for my arguments pro sub-forums for big submods.

[alreadyded]

I think this would help the smaller mods more since the "big" ones are always taking up the first page and constantly pushing smaller works to the second page and into oblivion rather quickly. I only peruse these forums every once in awhile for new, and often enough older stuff I have never seen or heard about in my absences, to add to my stuff. For the more casual forum users like myself it would make finding unknown smaller works easier to notice and therefore give them more "spotlight."

At the same time, these forums are not as active as they used to be so I would not say it is needed. But since it would take no time at all to implement and I can only see good things as a result I will vote yes.

[MIKE GOLF]

I voted no on this because, I read these forums almost daily. It is easy to see at a glance what new posts are in each of these mods as I check them all whenever a new post has been made. Having 5 additional sub forums to check would mean in all probability that I would check none or very rarely. And since these "big 5" submods only take up 5 lines or so there is plenty of room for new mods or submods to be viewed. The ones I like I bookmark for future reference.

[Withwnar]

as to limit the number of 'submod sub-forums' to not over five (only my opinion though)

DaC, Mos, Frogs, PCP and leo's patch.

What happens when another one comes on the scene that is 'bigger' than one of these? Does that now-smaller one lose its subforum? (Surely not.)

"Major" is a relative, subjective and temporary term. Only two years ago (?) Baron Samedi's would have been number one on that list. And we could, in theory, have 20 submods in five year's time that are just as "major" as any of those five.

[dannyalex]

i always say yes in progress

[Radagaisus]

What happens when another one comes on the scene that is 'bigger' than one of these? Does that now-smaller one lose its subforum? (Surely not.)

"Major" is a relative, subjective and temporary term. Only two years ago (?) Baron Samedi's would have been number one on that list. And we could, in theory, have 20 submods in five year's time that are just as "major" as any of those five.

This is only a question of how many sub forums should be created now. If BS were to come back and start the mod up again, he'd deserve a sub forum. But other than that, if future sub forums should be created, that would be up to future moderators and users to decide.

[revan.be]

As someone who is somewhat new to TATW (only having ever played one campaign as Isengard),
i must support the OP 's views about needing sub-forums for CLARITY regarding sub-mods features.

OP's are usually limited in what they can write about the mods features,
(or even far worse , say stupid like "also includes several surprises around this or that...",
i mean how is that any help to people wanting an in-depth overview of its changes to know its the one to DL or not?)
and the threads themselves contain about a hundred pages or more .

Let alone the fact , that when looking for something specific , not included in the major submods,
one has the unenviable task of trawling through 51 pages of threads, with some just as coy about the description..yay

[MIKE GOLF]

Let alone the fact , that when looking for something specific , not included in the major submods,
one has the unenviable task of trawling through 51 pages of threads, with some just as coy about the description..yay

Do you think that adding 5 subforums will solve this?

[Radagaisus]

Do you think that adding 5 subforums will solve this?

Of course it will. If nothing else people can ask their questions in a chain of their own - the submod can create a faq chain, a questions answered chain etc. etc. And that's just a small range of the things they can do - stickies etc.

I'm used to the Paradox forums where mods of a big enough size get their own forums. Third Age has advanced so far that it is basically a finished game in it's own right, so it's only fair that it's biggest submods get their own forums.

[revan.be]

It will at least reduce some of the pressure on the current forum , for one of THE mods on TWC,
(one no longer officially being worked on afaik, therefore relegating new content to the sub-mods)
alowing smaller , more specific sub-mods to be accessible at all.

Besides , as someone who already knows which mods do what exactly and where to find them at the drop of a hat,
(within the aforementioned 51 pages , which constantly change position through bumping)
compared to someone who needs to read EVERYTHING to find out what does what,
which one will know more of accessibility through recent experience?
(sorry , but these general TWC-wide issues have been a pet peeve of mine for a longer time)

What would help the sub-mods of TATW ( and others) to be more accessible , then? (both the big and the small)

For every large mod forum of a very major part of TWC (ie; TATW)
to BOTH have the major compilations get their own sub-forum , (like a TATW :Hosted submods/compilations section above the TATW stickies,
which lead to the major sub-mods) therefore no longer crowding the sub-mods forum;

AND for the existing smaller submods (including the single mods included whithin the major sub-mods)
to be sub-divided within categories like , visuals & audio , campaign map tweaks, unit packs,small compilations, other, etc...

10 pages or so for a sub-forum reaally should be the limit where people realize ,
hmm this forum offering mods is starting to become juuust a little unclear ...
(no longer allowing people to see the forest for the trees)

Furthermore i hold the same opinion regarding other large mods on TWC ,
their submods need to be subdived into submod types so people can more easily find the mods they want,
as well as OP's and stickies for the larger mods needing to be exhaustatively descriptive of WHAT exactly the mod does.