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Thread: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

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    Joseon194's Avatar Miles
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    Default What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    I always wondered what had happened to the French military after the Surrender at 22 June 1940. I know that much of the French military had retreated to Dunkirk with the remnants of the British Expeditionary Force and it was through a sheer force of luck that they weren't vaporized by the advancing German columns, which stopped cold just a few miles outside of the port city. But what had happened to the remaining troops after the Germans broke through in Paris? I mean for the most part, the Battle of France was a bloodless affair compared to the other parts of the Second World War (i.e the Eastern Front) But didn't the French try to reorganize themselves after Dunkirk when they went to England? Or at least try to set up some kind of military command in Algeria? I mean the Germans didn't have much of a hand in North Africa until Rommel actively waged war on the region with the British.

    I have read that the French had surrendered almost 2 million troops after Germany had entered Paris but France had about 3.3 million men mobilized for the defence of France so what had happened to the 1.3 million troops? That seems like a pretty sufficient enough number for the French to continue fighting in the war even with the loss of their homeland like say in Algeria or even with the British as they retreated from Dunkirk.

    ps. I know that there are many experts out there in this forum that will help me clear this up but please be kind to me because I am only just an enthusiast of history but I do want to become a history major when I'm older, I even wish to teach this in a uni hopefully one day.
    "This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some.


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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseon194 View Post
    I always wondered what had happened to the French military after the Surrender at 22 June 1940. I know that much of the French military had retreated to Dunkirk with the remnants of the British Expeditionary Force and it was through a sheer force of luck that they weren't vaporized by the advancing German columns, which stopped cold just a few miles outside of the port city. But what had happened to the remaining troops after the Germans broke through in Paris? I mean for the most part, the Battle of France was a bloodless affair compared to the other parts of the Second World War (i.e the Eastern Front) But didn't the French try to reorganize themselves after Dunkirk when they went to England? Or at least try to set up some kind of military command in Algeria? I mean the Germans didn't have much of a hand in North Africa until Rommel actively waged war on the region with the British.

    I have read that the French had surrendered almost 2 million troops after Germany had entered Paris but France had about 3.3 million men mobilized for the defence of France so what had happened to the 1.3 million troops? That seems like a pretty sufficient enough number for the French to continue fighting in the war even with the loss of their homeland like say in Algeria or even with the British as they retreated from Dunkirk.

    ps. I know that there are many experts out there in this forum that will help me clear this up but please be kind to me because I am only just an enthusiast of history but I do want to become a history major when I'm older, I even wish to teach this in a uni hopefully one day.
    It divided between those elements that remained loyal to the Vichy Government and those that joined rebelled against the Vichy Government and joined Charle De Guale's Free French Movement. After Operation Torch, the majority of the Vichy Forces surrendered and joined the Free French Forces. At that point the term Free French ended and all forces were considered the reconstituted French Army. French Forces continued fighting all the way till the surrender of the Germans in April of 1945, they took part in the fighting in Sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East, North Africa, Italy and were part of the invasion of Southern France (and to a lesser degree Normandy).
    Last edited by Farnan; August 17, 2014 at 10:10 AM.
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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    Why did those 2 million surrender anyway? So what if Paris has fallen.

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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    Because France didn't want millions dead and the whole country ruined. That was the reason that they surrendered. The public mind was still very traumatized from World War 1. More over the French government and the populace were pretty disenchanted by Britain's performance and their decision to evacuate rather than help the French fight on further south.

    Making a "permanent" peace with Germany sounded like a better alternative anyway.
    Charles de Gaulle and the Free French were not even taken seriously at first, the government took measures to ban that radio signal but even then there is little to suggest that anyone saw his cause as legitimate for the first couple years (the exceptions were some Sub-Saharan colonies where officers joined the Free French). Regardless a Franco-German alliance was always held on the table by Germany and for some strange reason the Vichy government was not very willing to go through with that.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    A fighter regiment (three squadrons) of Free French fighter pilots served with the Soviet Air Force during the war as the Normandie-Niemen regiment in the 1st Air Army. Three members of the regiment were named Heroes of the Soviet Union. Kind of cool.



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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Because France didn't want millions dead and the whole country ruined. That was the reason that they surrendered. The public mind was still very traumatized from World War 1. More over the French government and the populace were pretty disenchanted by Britain's performance and their decision to evacuate rather than help the French fight on further south.

    Making a "permanent" peace with Germany sounded like a better alternative anyway.
    Charles de Gaulle and the Free French were not even taken seriously at first, the government took measures to ban that radio signal but even then there is little to suggest that anyone saw his cause as legitimate for the first couple years (the exceptions were some Sub-Saharan colonies where officers joined the Free French). Regardless a Franco-German alliance was always held on the table by Germany and for some strange reason the Vichy government was not very willing to go through with that.
    I always knew that the French's activities after France had fallen were usually restricted to guerilla warfare and other subterfuge tactics. Another thing that just always got to me is that I heard many frenchmen actually enlisted in the Wehrmacht when France was in Germany's control. Is that true?
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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseon194 View Post
    Another thing that just always got to me is that I heard many frenchmen actually enlisted in the Wehrmacht when France was in Germany's control. Is that true?
    YES, so were the Slavs.
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    Joseon194's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    YES, so were the Slavs.

    I thought the Slavs were one of the first people on the Nazi party's list to exterminate.
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    Most of the occupied nations had collaborationist groups that would field volunteers for the Wehrmacht, whether it be for the anticommunist cause or simply thugs looking for opportunity (such as the many SS formations from occupied areas).

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseon194 View Post
    I thought the Slavs were one of the first people on the Nazi party's list to exterminate.
    While the Slavs were labeled as untermensch, once the war in the East began to drag on the enemy was reshaped as the Judeo-Bulshivik threat, the political enemy of Soviet communism being the greater threat to Nazi Germany (with of course the Jew thrown in there...)
    Last edited by Aikanár; August 18, 2014 at 03:29 PM. Reason: consecutive postings



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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    There was no planned extermination of Slavs just like there was no Japanese plan to kill all the Chinese. I don't know where people get this from. Considering the Slavs were classified as Aryan peoples. What the Slavs were going to be used for was cheap labour to build the infrastructure in Russia and to integrate those territories into the Reich. Huge construction projects would have provided for lodging for tens of thousands of people in Russia and Ukraine in order (I'm assuming many of these also included Germans that were to migrate East) to build new cities and whole new industrial sectors, ports major roads, rails etc.

    Aside from the propaganda that the Germans used the Third Reich never actually considered the Slavic people anything other than an Aryan group. You do see the term "Untermensch" thrown around by German propaganda though. As Kentucky Bandit stated the main goal was the downfall of international Bolshevism/Jewry and this really reflected in the changes to their propaganda.
    There were even some idea thrown around by high party officials on how to administrate all of those territories and regional autonomy was an idea passed around a few times.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    There were even some idea thrown around by high party officials on how to administrate all of those territories and regional autonomy was an idea passed around a few times.
    While doing my undergrad thesis on Nazi propaganda and the Eastern Front ( many nightmarish, sleepless nights from that subject matter. I delved a little deeper than I had wanted to) I came across some writings on early plans to divide conquered Russian territory into districts. Each district would have an SS city and patron division, that would administrate and draw its forces from the new Germanic populations in some perverted neo-feudalist system. Also as stated by Lord Oda above, it wasn't a concerted policy of extermination (except for Jews) but rather a disregard for said ethnic groups that resulted in brutal treatment.
    Last edited by kentuckybandit; August 17, 2014 at 02:54 PM.



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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    Ahh I see thank you for the clear up, Lord Oda and Kentuck Bandit. Another question regarding my OP, out of the nearly 2 million French soldiers that had surrendered to the Wehrmacht I'm sure there was a significant amount of soldiers that were Jews, were those soldiers sent to the camps afterwards when they had surrenderd?
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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseon194 View Post
    I always knew that the French's activities after France had fallen were usually restricted to guerilla warfare and other subterfuge tactics. Another thing that just always got to me is that I heard many frenchmen actually enlisted in the Wehrmacht when France was in Germany's control. Is that true?
    No, after France fell there were many Frenchmen who collaborated with the Germans and the French Government in Vichy, either by serving in the milice or joining up to serve in French SS units down to regular citizens, business, and enterprises. The French resistance movement only started to become significant when D-Day started approaching since that's when they started attacking Germans, or basically when it was clear to the French that the Germans were losing. Basically there were many more Frenchmen who were collaborationists and neutral than there were people who resisted Germany or what we refer to as the Vichy Government, as though it wasn't the legitimate government of France.

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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseon194 View Post
    Ahh I see thank you for the clear up, Lord Oda and Kentuck Bandit. Another question regarding my OP, out of the nearly 2 million French soldiers that had surrendered to the Wehrmacht I'm sure there was a significant amount of soldiers that were Jews, were those soldiers sent to the camps afterwards when they had surrenderd?
    Some POWs were repatriated to France, but these were usually reservists who had prewar occupations that were high demand or that supported the civilian infrastructure. Most were kept in stalags or used in labor groups. The Vichy government eventually made this really strange propaganda idea where French POWs were serving their time in Germany to purify the new France and they tried to get people to volunteer to work in Germany in exchange for POWs. Never really worked out.



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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    A lot of Frenchmen participated to the "Service du travail obligatoire". Working in Germany factories. Few of them would have been voluntaries. It was not a success at the beginning a law of 4 September 1942 made it civic duty and stated than any able body men of 18-50 years and single woman of 21-35 years should be ready. Around the same time 210 000 war prisoners were "converted" into worker. They were not freed but required to stay and work as normal civilians.

    It was in part sold as a agreement to between both government to send French worker in exchange of what French prisoner would be released quicker.

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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    Also when the term untermensch was thrown around to describe Slavs it really was just party propaganda. The justification being that the Slavs were mentally inferior to Germanic people (but not necessarily racially either, Slavs were Aryans). The race angle only comes into here with Jews and things about hordes from the east which may have tainted Russian blood. Slavs as well were classified into many groups; Russians, Serbians, Poles, Croats, Baltics, Ukrainians etc.

    The main goal regarding the people there was to make the new territories German, which meant that Germans would take precedence and Slavs came second. The main goal with newer generations of Slavs being to incorporate them into the Germanic system with massive government complexes and schools. Not too sure about the details though. Certainly some form of Slavic autonomy was seriously considered in certain towns. The main goal regarding the acquisition of territories however was to greatly increase Germany's food production and industry (like seriously though, by gigantic amounts) and so German migration and cheap local labour was required in massive numbers.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    kentuckybandit's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    @Anna_Gein: I would really like to know more about this program. I did not realize it was taken so seriously. For a government to ask its own citizens (its own labor force and human resource) to offer itself up as payment for the paroling of its capture soldiers is rather interesting. Granted this is a totally unique situation.

    @Lord Oda Nobunana: The desire to turn captured Russian territory into a German breadbasket (which was really the main issue, even greater than the infamous Lebensraum idea) was the greatest reason for the invasion or Russia, imo. Many people act like Hitler was knowingly committing suicide by invading but honestly if he had been able to consolidate his early conquests there and began agricultural production, the German population would have had food for a very very very long time.



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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    Not to mention the huge amount of resources extracted from the Ukraine and the minerals extracted in Western Russia. These allowed for the Germans to keep their military machine from grinding to a halt. The Baltic states provided for a more secure Baltic and imports from Finland and Sweden untouched by Allied raiding (for the most part).

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Darkhorse's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: What happened to the French Military after the Surrender of Paris in 1940?

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    It divided between those elements that remained loyal to the Vichy Government and those that joined rebelled against the Vichy Government and joined Charle De Guale's Free French Movement. After Operation Torch, the majority of the Vichy Forces surrendered and joined the Free French Forces. At that point the term Free French ended and all forces were considered the reconstituted French Army. French Forces continued fighting all the way till the surrender of the Germans in April of 1945, they took part in the fighting in Sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East, North Africa, Italy and were part of the invasion of Southern France (and to a lesser degree Normandy).
    Pretty much sums it up, although there was a substantial Vichy French deployment in Indochina as well. They continued to administer the colonies until the Japanese got fed up.

    Of course this, amongst other reasons, caused issues with the post-war British operations to occupy southern Indochina, disarm the Japanese, and hand the colonies back to the French.

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