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Thread: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

  1. #41
    Squid's Avatar Opifex
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin de Bodemloze View Post
    Err what??

    If the want for a custom user title incentives one person to do good then it is serving a purpose. By making it available to all you remove that possibility.
    That's all well and good except it overlooks one thing, if want of a user title prevents at least one person from joining or staying than whatever benefit you've gained per your post as been wiped out. I look at this way, back when my wife and were first looking at houses granite counter tops were considered an upgrade and you expected to pay extra for a house with it in, things changed and now if a house doesn't have granite counter tops you expect to take some off the top to account for not having it. The point is the expectation now, regardless of what it previously might have been, is that custom usertitles are the norm for most users, not having them for those users does not benefit the site in anyway.
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  2. #42

    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by Squid View Post
    That's all well and good except it overlooks one thing, if want of a user title prevents at least one person from joining or staying than whatever benefit you've gained per your post as been wiped out. I look at this way, back when my wife and were first looking at houses granite counter tops were considered an upgrade and you expected to pay extra for a house with it in, things changed and now if a house doesn't have granite counter tops you expect to take some off the top to account for not having it. The point is the expectation now, regardless of what it previously might have been, is that custom usertitles are the norm for most users, not having them for those users does not benefit the site in anyway.
    How many forums have you not joined or left because of an issue like that? Perhaps many but I'd like to think people join forums because something about it interests them - beyond user titles.
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  3. #43
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin de Bodemloze View Post
    How many forums have you not joined or left because of an issue like that? Perhaps many but I'd like to think people join forums because something about it interests them - beyond user titles.
    Me none, but I'm not a good example because I'm active on exactly two forums, including this one. You are trying to tell us that you do not think a single person joined this site, likely because they thought it would be interesting, but then stopped because it didn't have this feature or because it had that limitation or whatever. That's a head in sand attitude. Those users likely never complained about it, they just leave, and we are poorer both monetarily and contribution wise for every user we lose.
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  4. #44
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by Squid View Post
    Support.



    That's all well and good except it overlooks one thing, if want of a user title prevents at least one person from joining or staying than whatever benefit you've gained per your post as been wiped out. I look at this way, back when my wife and were first looking at houses granite counter tops were considered an upgrade and you expected to pay extra for a house with it in, things changed and now if a house doesn't have granite counter tops you expect to take some off the top to account for not having it. The point is the expectation now, regardless of what it previously might have been, is that custom usertitles are the norm for most users, not having them for those users does not benefit the site in anyway.
    Well argued, I hadn't thought of it like that and I can see the benefit to the site as a whole, so after reflection I will change my mind and support this. It is a small enough thing not to really make a difference. If I extrapolate a little, now with all the social media devices and sites, I guess people are now very used to having their online persona completely customisable should we really be restricting what is in effect a minor detail.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin de Bodemloze View Post
    How many forums have you not joined or left because of an issue like that? Perhaps many but I'd like to think people join forums because something about it interests them - beyond user titles.
    This so, much this.

    This (awful) argument that not giving new members a user title may stop some from joining then why don't we give new members Citizenship badges, I'd be 10x more likely to not join a forum if I didn't get a giant badge if I wasn't in a certain group as opposed to not getting 20 characters under my name.

    Plus..
    "If you're not gonna join our forum because you can't put text under your name bro, we didn't want you here anyway."

  6. #46
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by .Mitch. View Post
    This so, much this.

    This (awful) argument that not giving new members a user title may stop some from joining then why don't we give new members Citizenship badges, I'd be 10x more likely to not join a forum if I didn't get a giant badge if I wasn't in a certain group as opposed to not getting 20 characters under my name.
    How many people who join TWC have a badge from the get go. Better put how many people who join even know what citizenship is? None

    How many of the people who join ask why they can't edit posts, display a user title or give rep? Almost all of them. The rep and post editing restrictions make sense because they help contain spammers but restricting user titles brings 0 benefits to the site beyond stroking the ego of certain members.

    Quote Originally Posted by .Mitch. View Post
    Plus..
    "If you're not gonna join our forum because you can't put text under your name bro, we didn't want you here anyway."
    This is exactly the type of toxic mentality which I have seen destroy many an interesting forum and I'm quite frankly surprised to see this from you.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; August 20, 2014 at 05:26 PM.
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  7. #47
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Juts because it's late and that is too open an invitation to not rip it apart:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    How many people who join TWC have a badge from the get go.
    How many people who join TWC have a custom user title from the get go? As your question, irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Better put how many people who join even know what citizenship is? None
    Better put how many people who join even know what every other badge stands for? Like your question, irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    How many of the people who join ask why they can't edit posts, display a user title or give rep? Almost all of them.
    Care to link us to the almost 366,394 threads/post of them asking for a custom user title, thank-you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    The rep and post editing restrictions are makes sense because they help limit spammers but restricting user titles brings 0 benefits to the site beyond stroking the ego of certain members.
    How does tying reputation to a certain post count limit spamming? If people are eager to give or receive rep, the contrary is more likely: post as fast as possible as much as possible in order to be able to reach the threshold for being able to give and receive reputation. Same goes out for editing posts.

    Care to provide logic arguments? Or is some random rambling all we get?



    Squid's put a finger on a wound with regards to monetarization though.


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  8. #48

    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by Squid View Post
    Me none, but I'm not a good example because I'm active on exactly two forums, including this one. You are trying to tell us that you do not think a single person joined this site, likely because they thought it would be interesting, but then stopped because it didn't have this feature or because it had that limitation or whatever. That's a head in sand attitude. Those users likely never complained about it, they just leave, and we are poorer both monetarily and contribution wise for every user we lose.
    In a general sense, sure. My guess is the number who left because of the lack of custom user titles is rather limited. Most people are probably like you and are only active on a handful at most - driven by what topics interest them and not custom user titles or the lack thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    The rep and post editing restrictions make sense because they help contain spammers but restricting user titles brings 0 benefits to the site beyond stroking the ego of certain members.
    So you don't think it incentivises behaviour at all, in that some people might go out of their way to earn the titles?
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  9. #49
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin de Bodemloze View Post



    So you don't think it incentivises behaviour at all, in that some people might go out of their way to earn the titles?
    Kindly read the OP. Joining staff or becoming a citizen/LM will still be the only ways to make them permanent.

    Only a hanfull of people have thus far said that they joined because of them nd they all joined waaaay back in the day and with the exception of darling have thus far not expressed opposition to this. In my 1 year in staff I have followed all recruitment drives closely and I can say that nobody, and I mean nobody who has joined in this period has even mentioned them at all. The only cited reasons where:
    1. citizenship
    2. I want to help

    So no at the moment they do not provide any incentive whatsoever. Ironically they would start to provide one if this bill passed because it would give people a taste for the bling and reward those who can abide by the rules and make this a pleasant community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aikanár View Post
    How many people who join TWC have a custom user title from the get go? As your question, irrelevant.
    So the goal of this proposal is irrelevant in a discussion about the goal of this proposal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aikanár View Post
    Better put how many people who join even know what every other badge stands for? Like your question, irrelevant.
    TWC Badges are unique to TWC, user titles are not. False link is false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aikanár View Post
    Care to link us to the almost 366,394 threads/post of them asking for a custom user title, thank-you.
    Browse the Q&S, threads asking about these things pop up rather frequently.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aikanár View Post
    How does tying reputation to a certain post count limit spamming? If people are eager to give or receive rep, the contrary is more likely: post as fast as possible as much as possible in order to be able to reach the threshold for being able to give and receive reputation. Same goes out for editing posts.

    Care to provide logic arguments? Or is some random rambling all we get?
    You are arguing only for the sake of arguing here. I did not come up with the rule I simply accept the explanation given. If you think limiting rep to full users is illogical take it up with Hex or write a proposal.

    At least you understand how I feel about user titles.



    What;s with all the exaggerations and fallacies Aik? You're not normally like this.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; August 20, 2014 at 06:49 PM.
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  10. #50
    Genius of the Restoration's Avatar You beaut and magical
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Genius of the Restoration View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    quite frankly people joining staff for the user titles has already been debunked (bar a few cases)
    So, not debunked then...
    The phrase exceptions which confirm the rule comes to mind.
    You have known cases where people admit that they were swayed by it, but you instead conclude that it's actually a rule against these people who have spoken out and defend this argument with a tired phrase. What sort of logic is this? I don't even understand how you're applying the phrase here. You've used it as a way to counter anything factual in the face of limited data, which is just daft eg.

    Topic: Are Australians racist?
    Genius: 'I have evidence that at least some Australians aren't racist.'
    Sir Adrian: 'The exception proves the rule. Therefore, Australians are racist.'


    This idea that people contribute to get the titles hasn't been debunked despite your insistence that it has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Kindly read the OP. Joining staff or becoming a citizen/LM will still be the only ways to make them permanent.
    What am I missing? They will be permanent. They will only be removed if a person does something naughty. Funnily enough, that's how they get removed from a citizen at the moment too. So it's the same form of permanency, only with different thresholds and removal methods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squid View Post
    That's all well and good except it overlooks one thing, if want of a user title prevents at least one person from joining or staying than whatever benefit you've gained per your post as been wiped out.
    This is a false dichotomy because there are additional options to the one you've presented. An alternative point of view, and the one that I think most people here are arguing for, is that it's an incentive for people to contribute more and contribute better on the site. It's not as simple as saying that if one person gets shirty then the site has lost, because there might also be people who contribute more in the hope of receiving the privilege.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squid View Post
    You are trying to tell us that you do not think a single person joined this site, likely because they thought it would be interesting, but then stopped because it didn't have this feature or because it had that limitation or whatever. That's a head in sand attitude. Those users likely never complained about it, they just leave, and we are poorer both monetarily and contribution wise for every user we lose.
    It's not about whether a single person has stopped because they didn't have a custom user title and using that as proof that we'd be better off if everyone had them. It's about commodifying the benefit of keeping that member (who I'd argue was only marginally interested in the site if that was their tipping point) versus the benefit of encouraging contribution from members who desire the title (who I'd argue would already be more invested in the site if this was their tipping point).

    I think it's a close call. People who know more about internet behaviour and attracting members and incentivising contribution would be better placed to talk on this than me but I think there is a case for both sides.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    So the goal of this proposal is irrelevant in a discussion about the goal of this proposal.




    TWC Badges are unique to TWC, user titles are not. False link is false.



    Browse the Q&S, threads asking about these things pop up rather frequently.




    You are arguing only for the sake of arguing here. I did not come up with the rule I simply accept the explanation given. If you think limiting rep to full users is illogical take it up with Hex or write a proposal.

    At least you understand how I feel about user titles.



    What;s with all the exaggerations and fallacies Aik? You're not normally like this.
    So according to you, exemplifying that your arguments are irrelevant to the topic of the discussion and asking for evidence of unproven claims and hyperbole are exaggerations and fallacies by now? Beautifully argued.

    I rest my case.


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  12. #52
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Give all full members with no active warning points the ability to display a custom user title. Full members excluding citizens or staff with 1 or more active warning points will have their user title reset
    since some users do care about usertitles, I think the part related to the behavior of this (dont break the ToS or you will lose your silly user title) could be useful.

    Support.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Put the name of the Lord Inquisitor Derpy Hooves upon the list.



  14. #54
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by Aikanár View Post
    So according to you, exemplifying that your arguments are irrelevant to the topic of the discussion and asking for evidence of unproven claims and hyperbole are exaggerations and fallacies by now? Beautifully argued.

    I rest my case.
    You didn't exemplify anything you just threw up two random questions and shouted irrelevant. The discussion was about the impression of people who join the site get when they see that don't have access to a basic feature. Mitch said people who join the site care more about the badges. I asked him how many people who join even know about them Where is the irrelevant part?
    You demanded links for 365 thousand users, that is everyone who has ever had an account on this site. If that is not an exaggeration, then what is. As for the fallacy part see the bit where you condition knowing about the badges to knowing about user titles.

    So yeah, beautifully argued Aik.


    Quote Originally Posted by Genius of the Restoration View Post
    You have known cases where people admit that they were swayed by it, but you instead conclude that it's actually a rule against these people who have spoken out and defend this argument with a tired phrase. What sort of logic is this? I don't even understand how you're applying the phrase here. You've used it as a way to counter anything factual in the face of limited data, which is just daft eg.

    Topic: Are Australians racist?
    Genius: 'I have evidence that at least some Australians aren't racist.'
    Sir Adrian: 'The exception proves the rule. Therefore, Australians are racist.'


    This idea that people contribute to get the titles hasn't been debunked despite your insistence that it has.
    Ehm no, that's not how the conversation went. You don't have evidence that at least a few people joined because of them, you have evidence that only a few people joined because of them. Big difference. If only 3 people out 100 like beer you can say that people generally do not like beer because those 3 people act as proof that 97% don't like it. Same thing here, that handful people who are the only ones who joined staff because of user titles act as proof that for the other several hundred (just throwing a number out there, I have no idea how many staff members, citizens and LM are currently active) it did not act as an incentive.

    (sorry for the bad English, sometimes translating ideas can be a )

    Quote Originally Posted by Genius of the Restoration View Post
    What am I missing? They will be permanent. They will only be removed if a person does something naughty. Funnily enough, that's how they get removed from a citizen at the moment too. So it's the same form of permanency, only with different thresholds and removal methods.
    That is enough of a difference. In your time in the Curia how often have you seen citizens get 8 points? My guess would be not very often. After all as a staffer you likely to get kicked out (depending on who is your director) and as a citizen you are liable to face suspension (depending on the infraction).

    On the other hand getting a 1 pointer is as easy as letting yourself be drawn in an off-topic discussion or posting when angry.
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    You didn't exemplify anything you just threw up two random questions and shouted irrelevant.
    So by typing one is shouting? Quite, I guess then I have to type more silently in order to not shout at you, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    The discussion was about the impression of people who join the site get when they see that don't have access to a basic feature.
    You declared that feature basic without even addressing arguments in which you have been displayed, that it is not a basic feature on TWC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Mitch said people who join the site care more about the badges.
    That is not what Mitch argued, care to re-read what he wrote. He didn't argue what other people joining the site would think, but he put himself in the hypothetical situation to join the site anew and what, if anything, he would wonder more, he personally, not some abstract majority of users you keep on rambling about without having ever presented anything other than your personal opinion. Which is all fine and dandy but still remains just that, an opinion, nothing more.

    As of yet, you have failed or didn't care to deliver backup for your opinion and your claims and you have failed to address the arguments of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    I asked him how many people who join even know about them Where is the irrelevant part?
    The irrelevant part is manyfold, first you do know absolutely nothing about "people who join" because all you can tell is your own experience; unless, unless you gathered supporting evidence (take note, the bolded part is not a shout, but only an emphasis for the eyes in order that it might not get overlooked accidentally) that says otherwise.

    Second, there is absolutely no "basic feature overview" preview or summary or the like, which people get to see while registering, there is absolutely nothing that says: "come to TWC, here you can have an Avatar, a Signature, a public Profile page and you can have a custom user title" from which people could be deluded with their expectations and than, as has been implyed in this thread, disappointed turn away from TWC forever, because, wait for it:

    they cannot change their custom user title.

    Third, I doubt (see I say doubt, because I do not know, in contrary to your standard operating procedure in this thread) that the key incentive for people to register are features of personal expression outside postings in general, but the desire to post something. That assumption is based on the simple obsevervation, that you a) do not need to be registered to read the forums (except some special forums like the Q&S that unregistered users wouldn't know about in the first place), b) can download mods without being registered, c) a forums genuine purpose is posting something. But in case you might have come across evidence contradicting to my observation, I'll gladly listen to that.

    Please take note, evidence, not opinion or the incoherrent ramblings you've been bringing forth as "arguments", this kind of "logic" won't convince me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    You demanded links for 365 thousand users, that is everyone who has ever had an account on this site. If that is not an exaggeration, then what is.
    It was you who claimed, and I quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian
    How many of the people who join ask why they can't edit posts, display a user title or give rep? Almost all of them.
    again, I have bolded the relevant part for reading convenience, in case you missed it, while you posted it.

    Now, everyone equals ~365 thousand registered users, hence almost everyone implys a number close to 365 thoussand. All I did was calling you out on your claim, asking for proof to back it up.

    What did you say about exaggerations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    As for the fallacy part see the bit where you condition knowing about the badges to knowing about user titles.
    See above.

    Spoiler for Off-Topic
    That being said, Sir Adrian, if you come to the Curia, a place of discussion and debate, you have to expect that your arguments will be called out, that includes calling BS on your arguments and logic, if they smell like BS, taste like BS and sound like BS.

    Some do it more eloquent and more polite, like GoR, than me, while I simply hit you with a sledge hammer. But that is the same for our arguments and logic too.

    It's simple, is posted, will get called out.
    Last edited by Aikanár; August 21, 2014 at 08:37 AM.


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  16. #56
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    A lot of forums don't even let you have a custom avatar let alone a custom user title. Maybe we lose a few members due to lack of customization but I think the incentive of contribution outweighs that as Genius so effectively stated:

    it's an incentive for people to contribute more and contribute better on the site. It's not as simple as saying that if one person gets shirty then the site has lost, because there might also be people who contribute more in the hope of receiving the privilege.

    It's not about whether a single person has stopped because they didn't have a custom user title and using that as proof that we'd be better off if everyone had them. It's about commodifying the benefit of keeping that member (who I'd argue was only marginally interested in the site if that was their tipping point) versus the benefit of encouraging contribution from members who desire the title (who I'd argue would already be more invested in the site if this was their tipping point).
    Does no one else want to think about a compromise and tieing it to post count? An incentive to stay, be active, and contribute, so grant the privilege after something like 2000 posts?

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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthFox View Post
    A lot of forums don't even let you have a custom avatar let alone a custom user title. Maybe we lose a few members due to lack of customization but I think the incentive of contribution outweighs that as Genius so effectively stated:



    Does no one else want to think about a compromise and tieing it to post count? An incentive to stay, be active, and contribute, so grant the privilege after something like 2000 posts?
    ^As I've said right when you proposed it, that is something I can support. Incentive to contribute -> contribute 2000 posts -> get a small little nice reward for it.


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  18. #58

    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthFox View Post
    Does no one else want to think about a compromise and tieing it to post count? An incentive to stay, be active, and contribute, so grant the privilege after something like 2000 posts?
    I could agree to this.
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  19. #59
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by Genius of the Restoration View Post
    This is a false dichotomy because there are additional options to the one you've presented. An alternative point of view, and the one that I think most people here are arguing for, is that it's an incentive for people to contribute more and contribute better on the site. It's not as simple as saying that if one person gets shirty then the site has lost, because there might also be people who contribute more in the hope of receiving the privilege.
    Except that no one who's opposed has actually provided any proof that people contribute to the site in order to get a custom usertitle. I'd hazard a guess that most contribute, or at least have their contributions recognized (i.e. are offered citizenship), because they either want to contribute to the site (regardless of awards) or because of more substantial rewards they receive such as the badge. In my time here I have never heard of any person contributing for a custom usertitle, though I've known of many who do so for the badges.

    It's not about whether a single person has stopped because they didn't have a custom user title and using that as proof that we'd be better off if everyone had them. It's about commodifying the benefit of keeping that member (who I'd argue was only marginally interested in the site if that was their tipping point) versus the benefit of encouraging contribution from members who desire the title (who I'd argue would already be more invested in the site if this was their tipping point).
    Who knows that their interest is, I'm not going to make claims about it, but personally if I have time to commit to one site and I'm choosing between a couple, assuming I like the content of each equally I will contribute to the one that I get the most from. This is probably a fairly normal decision for people to make.
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    Default Re: [Decision] Give full members a custom user title

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthFox View Post
    Does no one else want to think about a compromise and tieing it to post count? An incentive to stay, be active, and contribute, so grant the privilege after something like 2000 posts?
    I would oppose due to the spam this would create. Look at how new members, if they inquire, are told to spam the TD to get to 25 posts to get edit, poll, etc privileges making them get to 2000 would make it worse or it would be like changing nothing. I'd have to check but I highly doubt that there are many member with 2000+ posts who don't have custom usertitles compared to those that do.
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