[RELEASED] New Roman Roster Overhaul

[Dresden]

I agree that is probably a good idea to explore. I will work on improving the historical accuracy of the units and formations. Please continue giving feedback because it is highly appreciated

[MagicCuboid]

It's perhaps not the most accurate suggestion, but if we must call the spear wielding comitatenses something, why not "Pseudocomitatenses"? This term was used to describe the Limitanei who had been permanently re-drafted into the Comitatenses field army. We could go with the conceit that the Limitanei prefer to fight with the spear.

Also, should the unit itself bear the "Legio" title? This suggests the unit is its own legion. Perhaps Cohors would still do fine, but I'm unsure if that was still the regiment in use at this time.

The Notitia Dignitatum typically refers to cavalry regiments as Vexillatio. According to Adrian Goldsworthy in his book The Complete Roman Army, a cavalry vexillationes was a large grouping of some 600 men.

This may not equate well to the smaller tactical unit in the game. That said, a cohort is about 480 men but we willingly employ that term instead of century in the context of this game. However, unlike the cohort's centuries which functioned "glued together", it's unclear whether the vexillationes was split into smaller tactical groups on the field (though I imagine it must have been).

Anyway, here is an example of a field army under the Master of Soldiers of Praesentalis II from the Notitia Dignitatum:
6 vexillatio palatina
6 vexillatio comitatenses
6 legio palatina
17 auxilia palatina
1 pseudocomitatenses

And the key that Goldsworthy provides:

scholae: imperial guard cavalry regiments
vexillatio palatina: elite field army cavalry regiments
vexillatio comitatenses: field army cavalry regiments
legio palatina: elite field army legions
auxilia palatina: elite field army auxiliary regiments
legio comitatenses: field army legion
pseudocomitatenses: formerly border troops, now part of field army

Also, are the scholae recruitable anywhere? It would be fun to have some available to armies led by the Augusti for RP reasons.

EDIT: last question: could someone explain to me the difference between the Legio Milites/Hastati and the Legio Comitatenses Milites/Hastati? Wouldn't they be the same thing?

[andrew881thebest]

It's perhaps not the most accurate suggestion, but if we must call the spear wielding comitatenses something, why not "Pseudocomitatenses"? This term was used to describe the Limitanei who had been permanently re-drafted into the Comitatenses field army. We could go with the conceit that the Limitanei prefer to fight with the spear.

Also, should the unit itself bear the "Legio" title? This suggests the unit is its own legion. Perhaps Cohors would still do fine, but I'm unsure if that was still the regiment in use at this time.

The Notitia Dignitatum typically refers to cavalry regiments as Vexillatio. According to Adrian Goldsworthy in his book The Complete Roman Army, a cavalry vexillationes was a large grouping of some 600 men.

This may not equate well to the smaller tactical unit in the game. That said, a cohort is about 480 men but we willingly employ that term instead of century in the context of this game. However, unlike the cohort's centuries which functioned "glued together", it's unclear whether the vexillationes was split into smaller tactical groups on the field (though I imagine it must have been).

Anyway, here is an example of a field army under the Master of Soldiers of Praesentalis II from the Notitia Dignitatum:
6 vexillatio palatina
6 vexillatio comitatenses
6 legio palatina
17 auxilia palatina
1 pseudocomitatenses

And the key that Goldsworthy provides:

scholae: imperial guard cavalry regiments
vexillatio palatina: elite field army cavalry regiments
vexillatio comitatenses: field army cavalry regiments
legio palatina: elite field army legions
auxilia palatina: elite field army auxiliary regiments
legio comitatenses: field army legion
pseudocomitatenses: formerly border troops, now part of field army

Also, are the scholae recruitable anywhere? It would be fun to have some available to armies led by the Augusti for RP reasons.

EDIT: last question: could someone explain to me the difference between the Legio Milites/Hastati and the Legio Comitatenses Milites/Hastati? Wouldn't they be the same thing?

This is a good idea but I think that a unit of Limitanei/Ripenses is necessary, too. Since Pseudo comitatenses gives the idea of something between comitatenses and something different, we should have that something represented too. Limitanei could have low moral and low armor and poor offensive status, while Pseudo comitatenses could have better armor but still low moral and offensive, maybe just a bit higher than Limitanei (since they would have been retrained someway).
Another important thing is that, as reported by ancient sources, comitatenses were used to live in some cities of the Empire, not far from the Borders, ready to be deployed, and they caused a lot of civil unrest and degradation (I imagine thousands soldiers getting drunk and molesting girls, quarreling with people, stealing ET cetera). This could be represented in the game, with the player able to chose between putting armies in separated forts or in towns, saving some money and logistic problems but causing degradation and unrest.
As for the name of the units, as I said before I would call each unit "legio" or "auxilia" for infantry, adding the name "comitatenses" or "palatina", then eventually the peculiar name of the legion (Like Erculiani, Ioviani, Lanciari) with the exception of Limitanei who were not in any legions but simply under the command of some Duces. if you want to make a difference between swore and spear units, you could add "spathati" for sword and "lanceati" for spear units since "lancea" meant spear and so not to be confused with Republican "hastati"
Then as for the tactics I would work to implement a real and good anti both cavalry and infantry Fulcum/shield wall, which should give a good defensive bonus while repelling barbarian charges. Because the Fulcum I see for example in DEi mod has a horrible gap between first and second row of shields (and a third row of raised Shields should be added too). Idea of Fulcum was to create a barrage of shields to stop charges, someway like a pike phalanx did with wall of pikes. So a fulcum should last for a while and not be disrupted to quickly.
Finally (I swear it is last thing) forts should be added. In the time of Constantine the Limes in the border was a very deep and solid barrage against any attacks. There were forts with towers, deep and tall walls, which had been made better and better in the previous century to repell barbarian invasions. There were both internals and external forts as outposts in enemy territories. Hope some of this can be remade?

[cosminache4u]

how do i install this??

[Razor]

Ignore

[Razor]

The issue here is mainly one of gameplay vs. historical accuracy. I do want to maintain historical accuracy in the mod but I have sacrificed it on various occasions for gameplay purposes. For example, Constantine was not a fully Christian emperor and the lands he owns were not christian vs imperial. However, to provide some sort of culture system to the game I instituted religions and gave Christianity to Constantine.

In the same way, if you are playing as Romans against other Romans, I prefer to have different and varied unit types to add to gameplay. It would get quite boring if there were the same units in every single army for the entire campaign. Having various unit options improves the gameplay (in my opinion). It also helps with the battle mechanics as there are specific roles in the basic game for the unit types.

As far as the axe-throwers, they simply throw them before they charge. They aren't a specific axe-throwing unit. It's more of thing that certain German units do rather than having them use the javelin. I simply advertised them the axe throwing element because it is fairly unique.

I understand that a compromise has to be made between historical accuracy and gameplay. That's the whole reason to have only one spear-sword unit rather than copy-paste units that differ only from each other between sword and spear. Having many double units would make a mess of the unit roster and overwhelm the player, especially if he's uninformed about the period and with funny names that look very similar to one another like:

Legio Hastati
Legio Spatharii
Legio Comitatensis Hastati
Legio Comitatensis Spatharii
Cohors Hastati
Cohors Spatharii
Cohors Miliaria Hastati
Cohors Miliaria Spatharii
Cohors Palatina Hastati
Cohors Palatina Spatharii
Auxilium Hastati
Auxilium Spatharii
Auxilium Palatinum Hastati
Auxilium Palatinum Spatharii

Really. For my late Roman mod in M2TW I only have 5 units that cover all these 14 units:

Legio (the new Comitatensis legion)
Cohors (the old border legion unit)
Cohors Miliaria (old border legion unit; double cohort)
Cohors Palatina (= Cohors Praetoria/Praetorian Cohort under the Tetrarchy)
Auxilium (regular unit recruited from barbarians)


You can't prevent the fact that players are fighting units that are similar to their own. It's a civil war. What would you expect? The difference would be in the regional units (Constantine: Gallic/Germanic legions and many Germanic (Frankish, Alamannic) auxilia units, Maxentius: Italian Legions, Moorish auxiliaries and Praetorian units, Licinius: Illyrian elite legions and Germanic/Gothic auxiliaries, Maximinus Daia: Eastern Auxiliary units.

As for the axe-throwers: fair enough.

It's perhaps not the most accurate suggestion, but if we must call the spear wielding comitatenses something, why not "Pseudocomitatenses"? This term was used to describe the Limitanei who had been permanently re-drafted into the Comitatenses field army. We could go with the conceit that the Limitanei prefer to fight with the spear.

Also, should the unit itself bear the "Legio" title? This suggests the unit is its own legion. Perhaps Cohors would still do fine, but I'm unsure if that was still the regiment in use at this time.

The Notitia Dignitatum typically refers to cavalry regiments as Vexillatio. According to Adrian Goldsworthy in his book The Complete Roman Army, a cavalry vexillationes was a large grouping of some 600 men.

This may not equate well to the smaller tactical unit in the game. That said, a cohort is about 480 men but we willingly employ that term instead of century in the context of this game. However, unlike the cohort's centuries which functioned "glued together", it's unclear whether the vexillationes was split into smaller tactical groups on the field (though I imagine it must have been).

Anyway, here is an example of a field army under the Master of Soldiers of Praesentalis II from the Notitia Dignitatum:
6 vexillatio palatina
6 vexillatio comitatenses
6 legio palatina
17 auxilia palatina
1 pseudocomitatenses

And the key that Goldsworthy provides:

scholae: imperial guard cavalry regiments
vexillatio palatina: elite field army cavalry regiments
vexillatio comitatenses: field army cavalry regiments
legio palatina: elite field army legions
auxilia palatina: elite field army auxiliary regiments
legio comitatenses: field army legion
pseudocomitatenses: formerly border troops, now part of field army

Also, are the scholae recruitable anywhere? It would be fun to have some available to armies led by the Augusti for RP reasons.

EDIT: last question: could someone explain to me the difference between the Legio Milites/Hastati and the Legio Comitatenses Milites/Hastati? Wouldn't they be the same thing?

Scholae units only came into being because Constantine disbanded/re-branded the Praetorian Guard after he defeated Maxentius in 312.

My guess is that the Legio Milites/Hastati represent the border legions (but border legions were much bigger than the Legiones Comitatenses, Under Diocletianus they were reduced to half the size of the 'old legion', so around 3000 men, consisting of some 5-6 Cohorts), and the Legio Comitatensis Milites/Hastati the 'new legion' either drawn from the border legions as a (Double) Cohort and re-branded as a Legio (Comitatensis) or a completely new recruited unit.

This is a good idea but I think that a unit of Limitanei/Ripenses is necessary, too. Since Pseudo comitatenses gives the idea of something between comitatenses and something different, we should have that something represented too. Limitanei could have low moral and low armor and poor offensive status, while Pseudo comitatenses could have better armor but still low moral and offensive, maybe just a bit higher than Limitanei (since they would have been retrained someway).
Another important thing is that, as reported by ancient sources, comitatenses were used to live in some cities of the Empire, not far from the Borders, ready to be deployed, and they caused a lot of civil unrest and degradation (I imagine thousands soldiers getting drunk and molesting girls, quarreling with people, stealing ET cetera). This could be represented in the game, with the player able to chose between putting armies in separated forts or in towns, saving some money and logistic problems but causing degradation and unrest.
As for the name of the units, as I said before I would call each unit "legio" or "auxilia" for infantry, adding the name "comitatenses" or "palatina", then eventually the peculiar name of the legion (Like Erculiani, Ioviani, Lanciari) with the exception of Limitanei who were not in any legions but simply under the command of some Duces. if you want to make a difference between swore and spear units, you could add "spathati" for sword and "lanceati" for spear units since "lancea" meant spear and so not to be confused with Republican "hastati"
Then as for the tactics I would work to implement a real and good anti both cavalry and infantry Fulcum/shield wall, which should give a good defensive bonus while repelling barbarian charges. Because the Fulcum I see for example in DEi mod has a horrible gap between first and second row of shields (and a third row of raised Shields should be added too). Idea of Fulcum was to create a barrage of shields to stop charges, someway like a pike phalanx did with wall of pikes. So a fulcum should last for a while and not be disrupted to quickly.
Finally (I swear it is last thing) forts should be added. In the time of Constantine the Limes in the border was a very deep and solid barrage against any attacks. There were forts with towers, deep and tall walls, which had been made better and better in the previous century to repell barbarian invasions. There were both internals and external forts as outposts in enemy territories. Hope some of this can be remade?

It should be noted, I cannot stress this enough, that this distinction of Limitanei, Pseudocomitatenses and Comitatenses, and Palatini units that many recognize as the late Roman army did not exist at the time (the Cohors Palatina was just a different name for the Praetorian Cohort stationed in Rome). The fact that Diocletian still put a lot of emphasis on old border legions during his reign (which is just 6 years prior to the start of the mod) suggests that the legions were still preferably and primarily meant to be stationed at the frontier to stop barbarian incursions (and were well-equipped). The late Roman system you're all describing came into being much later (think: the defeat at Hadrianopolis in 378 and the chaos the Visigoths created around 410).
There was something of a Comitatenses army protecting the Emperors, but that's basically inherited from the crisis of the Third century where emperors drew cohorts ad hoc from the border legions to create a Comitatus (or: personal bodyguard/following) for an expedition on a temporary basis rather than putting their full trust in the corrupt and untrustworthy Praetorian Guard. Again, I would have just the basic Legionary and Auxiliary units and let the player decide whether they are units stationed at the border (Limitanei) or drafted into the personal armies of the emperor (Comitatenses) or anywhere in-between (Pseudocomitatenses).

[MagicCuboid]

My guess is that the Legio Milites/Hastati represent the border legions

It should be noted, I cannot stress this enough, that this distinction of Limitanei, Pseudocomitatenses and Comitatenses, and Palatini units that many recognize as the late Roman army did not exist at the time

Interesting. So the formalized system that we're referring to is really an outgrowth of the mobile Augusti taking vexellations from the border legions? I mean, that WOULD explain why the later Comitatenses units were always listed as "vexellatio", even though these units ceased to identify with their border legions and had no imperative to return.

This is a good idea but I think that a unit of Limitanei/Ripenses is necessary, too. Since Pseudo comitatenses gives the idea of something between comitatenses and something different, we should have that something represented too.

This is my reply in the Historical Thread: "At any rate, I am thinking that the limitanei are best represented as garrison units. They differed little from the comitatenses in equipment, only in the role they served as border-guards.

In fact, the limitanei were stationed permanently in forts (limes), whereas the comitatenses relied upon donations from locals as they moved about the land. Those limitanei who did get transferred to the field armies as psuedocomitatenseswere renamed as such."

So you see, as Razor described, the difference between limitanei and comitatatenses was primarily administrative, an unbeknownst to me, apparently not even relevant to the time period. This very campaign essentially created the environment for such distinctions to be made later.

[Razor]

Interesting. So the formalized system that we're referring to is really an outgrowth of the mobile Augusti taking vexellations from the border legions? I mean, that WOULD explain why the later Comitatenses units were always listed as "vexellatio", even though these units ceased to identify with their border legions and had no imperative to return.



This is my reply in the Historical Thread: "At any rate, I am thinking that the limitanei are best represented as garrison units. They differed little from the comitatenses in equipment, only in the role they served as border-guards.

In fact, the limitanei were stationed permanently in forts (limes), whereas the comitatenses relied upon donations from locals as they moved about the land. Those limitanei who did get transferred to the field armies as psuedocomitatenseswere renamed as such."

So you see, as Razor described, the difference between limitanei and comitatatenses was primarily administrative, an unbeknownst to me, apparently not even relevant to the time period. This very campaign essentially created the environment for such distinctions to be made later.

Exactly. Your last sentence nailed it perfectly.

[Ahiga]

Alright, to simplify the complex narratives, what we'd be looking at if we can get the "legionaries use spear/sword depending on personal whim, and possibly only spears if in a shield wall" to work is:

Tier 1A: Cohors. All armored?
'lowest quality' but in the sense of being very average. Think Hastati in quality

Tier 1B : Auxilium
same as above, but exchange some romanesque features, like testudo and drill/discipline, for 'barbaric' features. Maybe precursor javelins? Also not all armored, but all helmeted

Tier 2: Legio
All armored, standard good quality infantry of the line. "New" Comitatensis style legionaries, though with Constantine I they'll use one of his future Auxilia Palatina shields. If you think I'm going to go back into the horror of shield decor work, then:



Obelix's anger not capturing my congenial mood, of course. I'm just much too busy to really fret about shields matching up perfectly - in theory they ought to be more 3rd century in inspiration, but that's a doozy when the only real 3rd century shield I know of is the famous Dura Europus one. Also I have to be honest that I find the Imperial shields to be dreadfully boring and ugly as sin, so I don't have much love lost not featuring stuff like them juxtaposed on oval scutums!

Course Maxentius will use the Herculiani or Ioviani. Problem here is I have more shield decor than units to use it. Now the way R2 works you can have multiple factions have different names, unit icons (if wished), and unit models (if wished) for the single shared unit.

So for instance I could have Legio_A and Legio_B, which for Constantine would read "Legio Batavi" or "Legio Cornuti" (don't crucify me if I am spelling them wrong or whatever, just using this example), and then Maxentius would have his read "Legio Herculiani" and "Legio Ioviani". The problem is we'd have to severely limit the number of these you could have, else you'd have armies of two single legions. Using old school nomenclature because god knows what madness they used in the late period for unit organization, if we assume the individual recruitable unit is equivalent to a Cohorte, you'd be limited to what - 10 units of Legio_A and 10 of Legio_B?

Would that be acceptable to people? Is there any other options we'd have in mind? Perhaps, since Cohors Palatina would presumably be limited to Rome proper, we could extend the Legio into:

"Legio_Standard" - a generic proto-Comitatensis Legio. The principes in quality to a Cohor's Hastati in quality.

Then Legio_A and Legio_B as intermediate guard units - not as good as Cohors Palatina, but better than the Legio_standard. So Cohors = Imperial Legionary in quality. Legio_standard = Veteran Imperial Guards in quality. LegioA/B = Praetorians in quality. Cohors Palatina = Praetorian guard in quality.

Tier 3: Cohors Palatina: Guard unit.


I'm not sure where the Miliaria falls, is it basically the eagle cohort? Also, is there no means of having an 'elite' Auxilium unit? Constantine I seems to have relied on them extensively, so I feel odd having them be equivalent in quality/role to old school Auxilia.

[Dresden]

We can also use the final technology (Constantine Reforms) to make the changes that he does make himself later.

I also think that reducing the core Roman units may be historical but it limits gameplay for now. We do have many regional options in Germanic lands. However, since we haven't gotten to the East and Africa rosters yet, there are limited regional units there (2-3 each). I am definitely in favor of making it more historical, but it is difficult when the labels historians have placed on the various unit types weren't even in use at the time. I think this will require a balance between historical perfection and practical application. After all, this is a game and not just an exercise in historical roster construction. Not that we can't have both, it will just require some careful examination of how it affects the game itself. We are also limited by the campaign setup itself in terms of creating specific legions that stay in certain areas.

Sorry for the rambling there, once again I do agree with and appreciate the feedback. It is just a matter of how to best implement it to benefit the mod.

[andrew881thebest]

I understand that a compromise has to be made between historical accuracy and gameplay. That's the whole reason to have only one spear-sword unit rather than copy-paste units that differ only from each other between sword and spear. Having many double units would make a mess of the unit roster and overwhelm the player, especially if he's uninformed about the period and with funny names that look very similar to one another like:

Legio Hastati
Legio Spatharii
Legio Comitatensis Hastati
Legio Comitatensis Spatharii
Cohors Hastati
Cohors Spatharii
Cohors Miliaria Hastati
Cohors Miliaria Spatharii
Cohors Palatina Hastati
Cohors Palatina Spatharii
Auxilium Hastati
Auxilium Spatharii
Auxilium Palatinum Hastati
Auxilium Palatinum Spatharii

Really. For my late Roman mod in M2TW I only have 5 units that cover all these 14 units:

Legio (the new Comitatensis legion)
Cohors (the old border legion unit)
Cohors Miliaria (old border legion unit; double cohort)
Cohors Palatina (= Cohors Praetoria/Praetorian Cohort under the Tetrarchy)
Auxilium (regular unit recruited from barbarians)


You can't prevent the fact that players are fighting units that are similar to their own. It's a civil war. What would you expect? The difference would be in the regional units (Constantine: Gallic/Germanic legions and many Germanic (Frankish, Alamannic) auxilia units, Maxentius: Italian Legions, Moorish auxiliaries and Praetorian units, Licinius: Illyrian elite legions and Germanic/Gothic auxiliaries, Maximinus Daia: Eastern Auxiliary units.

As for the axe-throwers: fair enough.



Scholae units only came into being because Constantine disbanded/re-branded the Praetorian Guard after he defeated Maxentius in 312.

My guess is that the Legio Milites/Hastati represent the border legions (but border legions were much bigger than the Legiones Comitatenses, Under Diocletianus they were reduced to half the size of the 'old legion', so around 3000 men, consisting of some 5-6 Cohorts), and the Legio Comitatensis Milites/Hastati the 'new legion' either drawn from the border legions as a (Double) Cohort and re-branded as a Legio (Comitatensis) or a completely new recruited unit.



It should be noted, I cannot stress this enough, that this distinction of Limitanei, Pseudocomitatenses and Comitatenses, and Palatini units that many recognize as the late Roman army did not exist at the time (the Cohors Palatina was just a different name for the Praetorian Cohort stationed in Rome). The fact that Diocletian still put a lot of emphasis on old border legions during his reign (which is just 6 years prior to the start of the mod) suggests that the legions were still preferably and primarily meant to be stationed at the frontier to stop barbarian incursions (and were well-equipped). The late Roman system you're all describing came into being much later (think: the defeat at Hadrianopolis in 378 and the chaos the Visigoths created around 410).
There was something of a Comitatenses army protecting the Emperors, but that's basically inherited from the crisis of the Third century where emperors drew cohorts ad hoc from the border legions to create a Comitatus (or: personal bodyguard/following) for an expedition on a temporary basis rather than putting their full trust in the corrupt and untrustworthy Praetorian Guard. Again, I would have just the basic Legionary and Auxiliary units and let the player decide whether they are units stationed at the border (Limitanei) or drafted into the personal armies of the emperor (Comitatenses) or anywhere in-between (Pseudocomitatenses).

What you say does not represent in so many points what I know that I won't even list all the dubious sentences. I am not a historian anyway so who cares.

[Razor]

Alright, to simplify the complex narratives, what we'd be looking at if we can get the "legionaries use spear/sword depending on personal whim, and possibly only spears if in a shield wall" to work is:

Tier 1A: Cohors. All armored?
'lowest quality' but in the sense of being very average. Think Hastati in quality

Tier 1B : Auxilium
same as above, but exchange some romanesque features, like testudo and drill/discipline, for 'barbaric' features. Maybe precursor javelins? Also not all armored, but all helmeted

Tier 2: Legio
All armored, standard good quality infantry of the line. "New" Comitatensis style legionaries, though with Constantine I they'll use one of his future Auxilia Palatina shields. If you think I'm going to go back into the horror of shield decor work, then:



Obelix's anger not capturing my congenial mood, of course. I'm just much too busy to really fret about shields matching up perfectly - in theory they ought to be more 3rd century in inspiration, but that's a doozy when the only real 3rd century shield I know of is the famous Dura Europus one. Also I have to be honest that I find the Imperial shields to be dreadfully boring and ugly as sin, so I don't have much love lost not featuring stuff like them juxtaposed on oval scutums!

Course Maxentius will use the Herculiani or Ioviani. Problem here is I have more shield decor than units to use it. Now the way R2 works you can have multiple factions have different names, unit icons (if wished), and unit models (if wished) for the single shared unit.

So for instance I could have Legio_A and Legio_B, which for Constantine would read "Legio Batavi" or "Legio Cornuti" (don't crucify me if I am spelling them wrong or whatever, just using this example), and then Maxentius would have his read "Legio Herculiani" and "Legio Ioviani". The problem is we'd have to severely limit the number of these you could have, else you'd have armies of two single legions. Using old school nomenclature because god knows what madness they used in the late period for unit organization, if we assume the individual recruitable unit is equivalent to a Cohorte, you'd be limited to what - 10 units of Legio_A and 10 of Legio_B?

Would that be acceptable to people? Is there any other options we'd have in mind? Perhaps, since Cohors Palatina would presumably be limited to Rome proper, we could extend the Legio into:

"Legio_Standard" - a generic proto-Comitatensis Legio. The principes in quality to a Cohor's Hastati in quality.

Then Legio_A and Legio_B as intermediate guard units - not as good as Cohors Palatina, but better than the Legio_standard. So Cohors = Imperial Legionary in quality. Legio_standard = Veteran Imperial Guards in quality. LegioA/B = Praetorians in quality. Cohors Palatina = Praetorian guard in quality.

Tier 3: Cohors Palatina: Guard unit.


I'm not sure where the Miliaria falls, is it basically the eagle cohort? Also, is there no means of having an 'elite' Auxilium unit? Constantine I seems to have relied on them extensively, so I feel odd having them be equivalent in quality/role to old school Auxilia.

I lost you there...

I guess I might be too much stuck in M2TW with my head. How do unit upgrades in Rome 2 exactly work? Can you for example upgrade weapons and armour and are these upgrade visible on unit models during battle?

Tier 1: Cohors, Cohors Miliaria (Cohors Miliaria is the First Cohort or Double Cohort - twice the size of a normal Cohort - of the 'old legion' that carries the legionary eagle).
Tier 2: Legio (the 'new legion' smaller in size than the 'old legion' and different in organization from the 'old legion', being of the same size of a Cohors Miliaria. Could be considered more elite than Tier 1).
Tier 3: Cohors Palatina (Praetorian Guard unit: 10 cohorts that all had the size of a Cohors Miliaria)

The Auxilia actually were quite similar to the old school Auxilia. Indeed Constantine relied heavily on them in his armies (and they were outstanding warriors) and therefore they were regarded as elites, because: part of Constantine's personal army/Comitatus. They were mainly recruited from barbarians. Later in the 4th and 5th century Auxilia units were present in both the Limitanei armies and the Comitatenses armies, but enjoyed a higher status than regular Limitanei and Comitatenses units.
So the Auxilia units can be both border troops and elite units. Your call.

We can also use the final technology (Constantine Reforms) to make the changes that he does make himself later.

I also think that reducing the core Roman units may be historical but it limits gameplay for now. We do have many regional options in Germanic lands. However, since we haven't gotten to the East and Africa rosters yet, there are limited regional units there (2-3 each). I am definitely in favor of making it more historical, but it is difficult when the labels historians have placed on the various unit types weren't even in use at the time. I think this will require a balance between historical perfection and practical application. After all, this is a game and not just an exercise in historical roster construction. Not that we can't have both, it will just require some careful examination of how it affects the game itself. We are also limited by the campaign setup itself in terms of creating specific legions that stay in certain areas.

Sorry for the rambling there, once again I do agree with and appreciate the feedback. It is just a matter of how to best implement it to benefit the mod.

Don't worry. I do understand. And you're welcome.

What you say does not represent in so many points what I know that I won't even list all the dubious sentences. I am not a historian anyway so who cares.

That's how I started too many years ago.

[andrew881thebest]

I lost you there...

I guess I might be too much stuck in M2TW with my head. How do unit upgrades in Rome 2 exactly work? Can you for example upgrade weapons and armour and are these upgrade visible on unit models during battle?

Tier 1: Cohors, Cohors Miliaria (Cohors Miliaria is the First Cohort or Double Cohort - twice the size of a normal Cohort - of the 'old legion' that carries the legionary eagle).
Tier 2: Legio (the 'new legion' smaller in size than the 'old legion' and different in organization from the 'old legion', being of the same size of a Cohors Miliaria. Could be considered more elite than Tier 1).
Tier 3: Cohors Palatina (Praetorian Guard unit: 10 cohorts that all had the size of a Cohors Miliaria)

The Auxilia actually were quite similar to the old school Auxilia. Indeed Constantine relied heavily on them in his armies (and they were outstanding warriors) and therefore they were regarded as elites, because: part of Constantine's personal army/Comitatus. They were mainly recruited from barbarians. Later in the 4th and 5th century Auxilia units were present in both the Limitanei armies and the Comitatenses armies, but enjoyed a higher status than regular Limitanei and Comitatenses units.
So the Auxilia units can be both border troops and elite units. Your call.



Don't worry. I do understand. And you're welcome.



That's how I started too many years ago.

Why do you talk about cohors? cohortal legion was lost in late empire when size of each legion was deeply reduced.
There was no cohors palatina but there were legionae palatinae Exactely as auxilia palatina. And each legio palatina was not at all a guard unit, it was simply an elite unit.
Basically palatinae units were in the center of the Empire at direct service of emperor, while Comitatus were armies deployed near the Borders and ready to be deployed. There was not one Comitatus as personal army of the emperor but several Comitatus.

[MagicCuboid]

Andrew, you're totally correct that the legions were drastically reduced in size. That said, there is no information that I am aware of that describes the tactical units of late Roman legions that replaced the cohort. They are simply listed in paperwork as "legio this" and "vexillatio that". However, to assume that the Romans completely abandoned the tactical unit is, I think, a huge mistake. Further, I do not believe that the legio, although reduced in size, refers to a tactical unit either.

What we do see is actually a diversification of unit officers in the late Roman period. Here is what Adrian Goldsworthy has to say in his book, The Complete Roman Army:

"Unit commanders had a range of titles, which do not always appear readily to conform to a fixed pattern ... Within a unit there might be a ducenarii who according to Vegetius commanded 200 men, and beneath them centenarii, presumably commanders of 100 or century sized sub-units, and so perhaps equivalent to the old centurions.

So, with imagination that there may be one or two ducenarii per unit, we may assume that the tactical unit of the late Roman army was anywhere from 200 to 400 men; hardly a legion, at any rate, and more similar I should say to cohort strength. Though I do have little doubt the terminology probably shifted by this period, for our purposes and in absence of a clearer answer I believe the term "cohort" is more reasonable than "legio" in reference to a unit.

On your point that the comitatus was deployed on border regions of the empire, I am afraid you are confused by the terminology. Although the legions of the tetrarchy were indeed deployed on the borders, the comitatenses were not. Comitatus essentially means "comrade" in Latin. The term developed because those armies were essentially drawn by vexellation (meaning ad hoc unit transfer) from border legionsby the Augusti for personal use and to act as bodyguards (the palatina) and mobile tactical units. (As a brief aside, the idea of a mobile field army suggests speed, but that is a false assumption as they were no "faster" than any other legion. However, they were not tied down to a specific area and could therefore maintain a patrol and react to any situation with expediency.)

Those units that were left on the border forts later became known as the limitanei. Comitatenses on the other hand typically accompanied the Augustus when on campaign. When not, they subsisted by forced accommodation on the larger cities in the interior of the provinces. From what I understand, this "transferring the guard" to the interior cities was first done by Constantine in Britannia as a means to shore up public support during his reign as Caesar of the West, as the legions would be more effective in guarding economic assets and the people in the face of raiding barbarians from the sea.

I apologize if this lengthy response is taken as overly critical of your posts. In fact it is the opposite, as I took the time out of a healthy respect for your opinion .

To Dresden, I just appreciate the mods you make! I honestly feel the current roster (typographical errors aside and forgivable) is totally fun to play with and very workable in a historical context after some gamey/roleplay justifications. Great work overall and I look forward to further evolution of this mod!

[Razor]

Why do you talk about cohors? cohortal legion was lost in late empire when size of each legion was deeply reduced.
There was no cohors palatina but there were legionae palatinae Exactely as auxilia palatina. And each legio palatina was not at all a guard unit, it was simply an elite unit.
Basically palatinae units were in the center of the Empire at direct service of emperor, while Comitatus were armies deployed near the Borders and ready to be deployed. There was not one Comitatus as personal army of the emperor but several Comitatus.

No, the 'old legions' stationed at the border ('old legions' and your 'Limitanei' for that matter) were still organized into cohorts. These legions are the traditional legions and some have been stationed there for decades or even centuries. Btw, even Diocletian apparently still raised legions of full strength of 10 cohorts, as is suggested by M.J. Nicasie in his book Twilight of Empire noticing a mention in sources of the Legio sexta Herculia as being levied in full strength. The Herculiani and the Joviani were legions designated as the personal legions of the two emperors (because the Praetorian Guard couldn't be fully trusted), and were apparently full legions (10 cohorts strong, ~5500 men), whereas other border legions got split into half legions (5 cohorts strong, ~3000 men). However there's basically no stopping from emperors increasing the size of the border legions to their traditional strength if they wanted (and were able) to.

The 'new legions' of the Comitatus (the Legiones Comitatenses, the legions that you're talking about) were much smaller, around 1000 men, roughly the size of a Cohors Miliaria/First Cohort/Double Cohort. Many of those are thought to have originated from detached cohorts from border legions. They were simply detached and never returned to their parent legion an developed into units of their own. Obviously those legions weren't organized into cohorts, because they often were cohorts themselves. They were just doubled in size and re-branded as a 'new legion'. However there were also 'new legion' units who were directly raised as 'new legion' if I recall correctly.

The Cohors Palatina is simply what a Praetorian Cohort (Latin: Cohors Praetoria) was called under the Tetrarchy. The Legiones Palatinae were designated as such much later in the century. They were the elite legions of the Comitatus, probably very much like how the Joviani and the Herculiani were regarded as the personal protectors of the emperors and the elite legions, even though they were also stationed near the Danube around Sirmium I believe. The Comitatus accompanied the emperor and was originally much smaller than the later field armies. During the 4th century (probably under the sole rule of Constantine?) this field army was greatly (and permanently) expanded and turned into multiple regional field armies under the command of a military magistrate (Magister Peditum or Magister Equitum, or any other similar Magister) as opposed to armies personally accompanying the emperor as was the case with the earlier Comitatus of his predecessors.

Andrew, you're totally correct that the legions were drastically reduced in size. That said, there is no information that I am aware of that describes the tactical units of late Roman legions that replaced the cohort. They are simply listed in paperwork as "legio this" and "vexillatio that". However, to assume that the Romans completely abandoned the tactical unit is, I think, a huge mistake. Further, I do not believe that the legio, although reduced in size, refers to a tactical unit either.

What we do see is actually a diversification of unit officers in the late Roman period. Here is what Adrian Goldsworthy has to say in his book, The Complete Roman Army:

"Unit commanders had a range of titles, which do not always appear readily to conform to a fixed pattern ... Within a unit there might be a ducenarii who according to Vegetius commanded 200 men, and beneath them centenarii, presumably commanders of 100 or century sized sub-units, and so perhaps equivalent to the old centurions.

So, with imagination that there may be one or two ducenarii per unit, we may assume that the tactical unit of the late Roman army was anywhere from 200 to 400 men; hardly a legion, at any rate, and more similar I should say to cohort strength. Though I do have little doubt the terminology probably shifted by this period, for our purposes and in absence of a clearer answer I believe the term "cohort" is more reasonable than "legio" in reference to a unit.

On your point that the comitatus was deployed on border regions of the empire, I am afraid you are confused by the terminology. Although the legions of the tetrarchy were indeed deployed on the borders, the comitatenses were not. Comitatus essentially means "comrade" in Latin. The term developed because those armies were essentially drawn by vexellation (meaning ad hoc unit transfer) from border legionsby the Augusti for personal use and to act as bodyguards (the palatina) and mobile tactical units. (As a brief aside, the idea of a mobile field army suggests speed, but that is a false assumption as they were no "faster" than any other legion. However, they were not tied down to a specific area and could therefore maintain a patrol and react to any situation with expediency.)

Those units that were left on the border forts later became known as the limitanei. Comitatenses on the other hand typically accompanied the Augustus when on campaign. When not, they subsisted by forced accommodation on the larger cities in the interior of the provinces. From what I understand, this "transferring the guard" to the interior cities was first done by Constantine in Britannia as a means to shore up public support during his reign as Caesar of the West, as the legions would be more effective in guarding economic assets and the people in the face of raiding barbarians from the sea.

I apologize if this lengthy response is taken as overly critical of your posts. In fact it is the opposite, as I took the time out of a healthy respect for your opinion .

To Dresden, I just appreciate the mods you make! I honestly feel the current roster (typographical errors aside and forgivable) is totally fun to play with and very workable in a historical context after some gamey/roleplay justifications. Great work overall and I look forward to further evolution of this mod!

Interesting. I didn't know about the Constantine in Britannia part. And I agree with you about the mod.
To Dresden and Ahiga: As someone who has a deep love for the late Roman period, I may come across being too unforgiven and blunt at times, but meanwhile I'm just trying to shed some light over the late Roman organization that is often misunderstood. I don't know everything either, but I am a couple of years ahead of you.

[andrew881thebest]

No, the 'old legions' stationed at the border ('old legions' and your 'Limitanei' for that matter) were still organized into cohorts. These legions are the traditional legions and some have been stationed there for decades or even centuries. Btw, even Diocletian apparently still raised legions of full strength of 10 cohorts, as is suggested by M.J. Nicasie in his book Twilight of Empire noticing a mention in sources of the Legio sexta Herculia as being levied in full strength. The Herculiani and the Joviani were legions designated as the personal legions of the two emperors (because the Praetorian Guard couldn't be fully trusted), and were apparently full legions (10 cohorts strong, ~5500 men), whereas other border legions got split into half legions (5 cohorts strong, ~3000 men). However there's basically no stopping from emperors increasing the size of the border legions to their traditional strength if they wanted (and were able) to.

The 'new legions' of the Comitatus (the Legiones Comitatenses, the legions that you're talking about) were much smaller, around 1000 men, roughly the size of a Cohors Miliaria/First Cohort/Double Cohort. Many of those are thought to have originated from detached cohorts from border legions. They were simply detached and never returned to their parent legion an developed into units of their own. Obviously those legions weren't organized into cohorts, because they often were cohorts themselves. They were just doubled in size and re-branded as a 'new legion'. However there were also 'new legion' units who were directly raised as 'new legion' if I recall correctly.

The Cohors Palatina is simply what a Praetorian Cohort (Latin: Cohors Praetoria) was called under the Tetrarchy. The Legiones Palatinae were designated as such much later in the century. They were the elite legions of the Comitatus, probably very much like how the Joviani and the Herculiani were regarded as the personal protectors of the emperors and the elite legions, even though they were also stationed near the Danube around Sirmium I believe. The Comitatus accompanied the emperor and was originally much smaller than the later field armies. During the 4th century (probably under the sole rule of Constantine?) this field army was greatly (and permanently) expanded and turned into multiple regional field armies under the command of a military magistrate (Magister Peditum or Magister Equitum, or any other similar Magister) as opposed to armies personally accompanying the emperor as was the case with the earlier Comitatus of his predecessors.




Interesting. I didn't know about the Constantine in Britannia part. And I agree with you about the mod.
To Dresden and Ahiga: As someone who has a deep love for the late Roman period, I may come across being too unforgiven and blunt at times, but meanwhile I'm just trying to shed some light over the late Roman organization that is often misunderstood. I don't know everything either, but I am a couple of years ahead of you.

Ok now you are a bit more coherent, but I don't agree with the Limitanei being soldiers inside legions, I have always read they were basically peasants who were given a shield and a spear, "just in case". They were led by Duces not centurions in fact and lacked if the legion command system. Maybe what you say applies to 3rd century when there was not yet this distinction. But in 4th century, the age we are talking about, every historian talks about this main division into comitatenses and Limitanei. The first ones better equipped than latter. Limitanei were mainly farmers not real soldiers.

[Boyar'sNephew]

I didn't want to start a new thread just to say this, but I'm one of those people who pre-purchased Rome II and rarely played past September last year, other than occasional experimentation with Radious' mods.

I installed this mod a few days ago and I've been hugely impressed. I'm quite sure I've never enjoyed Rome II as much as I have playing this mod. My first battles against the Goths were suitably epic, and my two-stack siege assault on that city on the Asian side of the Bosphorus really demonstrated that my tactics have become terrible. I won, but I loved that a few enemy units could hold choke points so well against my "mass click and charge" non-tactic tactics. I paid the price for that city.

Anyway, my thanks for your great work, and I look forward to continue playing this, as well as DeI once it hits version 1.0.

Boyar's Nephew

[MagicCuboid]

andrew, basically I think you're describing the post-Constantine Roman system. In the context of this campaign, there are no limitanei so defined, and the comitatenses are just starting to form around the Augusti by looting from border legions. The first sources to describe the limitanei are ~forty years after Constantine's death, after all.

The civil war which led to Constantine's rise and consolidation of power was the first step in a pattern of usurpers who would loot the border legions of good soldiers, as the competing Augusti rallied increasingly larger forces in order to fight for their own gain. Furthermore, the characterization of the limitanei as poor soldiers, physically incapable of beating the barbarians back was a convenient excuse for earlier historians seeking to understand the fall of the Roman Empire from a simple military perspective, rather than from a political and administrative perspective.

In fact there's really no source that I am aware of that portrays the limitanei as any different from the comitatenses in terms of equipment or training. The only admission is that they lacked for numbers due to the aforementioned political instability in the core provinces.

[AnthoniusII]

Razor is right!
Recent discoveries prove that Limmitanei were NOT some poor equipted guys living in poor facillities.
Legions (and their cohorts still existed) but the total number of soldier in those "Legions" was too small (1000-1200)...
Recent historical discoveries now prove that heavily armed/armored horsemen also existed in limmes and in provincial capitals know as Clibanarii as well!!!
Clibanarii and Cataphracti were not Capital's "privilege".
Those "limmes" Legions were the basis of Justinian's last border fortification programme! Espesialy in Danube river!

[juanplay]

Razor is right!
Recent discoveries prove that Limmitanei were NOT some poor equipted guys living in poor facillities.
Legions (and their cohorts still existed) but the total number of soldier in those "Legions" was too small (1000-1200)...
Recent historical discoveries now prove that heavily armed/armored horsemen also existed in limmes and in provincial capitals know as Clibanarii as well!!!
Clibanarii and Cataphracti were not Capital's "privilege".
Those "limmes" Legions were the basis of Justinian's last border fortification programme! Espesialy in Danube river!

could you provide the article/book?, it must be an interesting reading.