Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

  1. #1
    FrancMor13's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Posts
    124

    Default The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    Good Evening! As long as I study Philosophy and Politics, I have a question in my head "Is really possible that Rousseau could be right?" But my answer is always no.
    For whose that never heard about this, is quite simple.
    Rousseau, had a theory about anarchy. He believes that in a society with no law, no government, the man would become a good "citizen of the world" and we would cooperate with each other. This is called the The Noble Savage. I don't believe in this because, if it was true, there wouldn't be any Law System, because we would put it in pratic!
    What do you think?
    Sorry for my awful english...

  2. #2
    /|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    10,770

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    I think you're right.

  3. #3
    DaniCatBurger's Avatar Centenarius
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Page 216
    Posts
    820

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    "Primitive man", "sauvage man", "first man" seems being used by Rousseau in On the Origin of Inequality.

    http://www.constitution.org/jjr/ineq.htm

    Your question may be connected with:

    Secondly, it follows that moral inequality, authorised by positive right alone, clashes with natural right, whenever it is not proportionate to physical inequality; a distinction which sufficiently determines what we ought to think of that species of inequality which prevails in all civilised, countries; since it is plainly contrary to the law of nature, however defined, that children should command old men, fools wise men, and that the privileged few should gorge themselves with superfluities, while the starving multitude are in want of the bare necessities of life.
    The social critic fits well in the context of the time with its contradictions. On the Origin of Inequality was written 1754.
    Last edited by DaniCatBurger; July 31, 2014 at 09:05 PM.
    שנאה היא לא ערך, גזענות היא לא הדרך




  4. #4
    FrancMor13's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Posts
    124

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    Yes, but it depicts that the society is the origin of the "evil". I agree with you, it was written in an age when the thoughts of freedom were on its gold age Around people like Diderot, Madame de Chatelet and Voltaire, it was "setted" the "climax" for the creation of the positivism...

  5. #5
    DaniCatBurger's Avatar Centenarius
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Page 216
    Posts
    820

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    My impression is that he tries to understand nature as an independant factor distinguished from moral and social affairs. Then he seems to ask that nature is taken into considerations, when moral and social philosophical questions are investigated. He accuses his critics in their undertakings not having done so sufficiently.

    What, then, is to be done? Must societies be totally abolished? Must meum and tuum be annihilated, and must we return again to the forests to live among bears? This is a deduction in the manner of my adversaries, which I would as soon anticipate as let them have the shame of drawing. O you, who have never heard the voice of heaven, who think man destined only to live this little life and die in peace; you, who can resign in the midst of populous cities your fatal acquisitions, your restless spirits, your corrupt hearts and endless desires; resume, since it depends entirely on ourselves, your ancient and primitive innocence: retire to the woods, there to lose the sight and remembrance of the crimes of your contemporaries; and be not apprehensive of degrading your species, by renouncing its advances in order to renounce its vices. As for men like me, whose passions have destroyed their original simplicity, who can no longer subsist on plants or acorns, or live without laws and magistrates; those who were honoured in their first father with supernatural instructions; those who discover, in the design of giving human actions at the start a morality which they must otherwise have been so long in acquiring, the reason for a precept in itself indifferent and inexplicable on every other system; those, in short, who are persuaded that the Divine Being has called all mankind to be partakers in the happiness and perfection of celestial intelligences, all these will endeavour to merit the eternal prize they are to expect from the practice of those virtues, which they make themselves follow in learning to know them. They will respect the sacred bonds of their respective communities; they will love their fellow-citizens, and serve them with all their might: they will scrupulously obey the laws, and all those who make or administer them; they will particularly honour those wise and good princes, who find means of preventing, curing or even palliating all these evils and abuses, by which we are constantly threatened; they will animate the zeal of their deserving rulers, by showing them, without flattery or fear, the importance of their office and the severity of their duty. But they will not therefore have less contempt for a constitution that cannot support itself without the aid of so many splendid characters, much oftener wished for than found; and from which, notwithstanding all their pains and solicitude, there always arise more real calamities than even apparent advantages. (Appendix at the end of the text)
    Last edited by DaniCatBurger; August 02, 2014 at 04:10 PM.
    שנאה היא לא ערך, גזענות היא לא הדרך




  6. #6
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    Quote Originally Posted by FrancMor13 View Post
    Good Evening! As long as I study Philosophy and Politics, I have a question in my head "Is really possible that Rousseau could be right?" But my answer is always no.
    For whose that never heard about this, is quite simple.
    Rousseau, had a theory about anarchy. He believes that in a society with no law, no government, the man would become a good "citizen of the world" and we would cooperate with each other. This is called the The Noble Savage. I don't believe in this because, if it was true, there wouldn't be any Law System, because we would put it in pratic!
    What do you think?
    Sorry for my awful english...
    Well I think you are misrepresenting him. He never said people would co-operate he said society operates on three stages, the very primitive stage akin to animals. A second stage of small community where people live in small communities living small interconnected happy lives but overcome by ego, competition, natural and unnatural inequality leads to the necessary development of the third stage of society and there in lies the problem that he attempts to solve through his social contract ideas.

    Have you read his works?

    Discourse on the Origin and Basis of Inequality Among Men
    The Social Contract, or Principles of Political Right

    Will show you clearly that the idea of the noble savage being attributed to Rousseau is clearly a mistake. That being said there is a better treatise that attempts to make this link between a true egalitarian anarchic society and that is Peter Kropotkins work Mutual Aid, a theory of human evolution.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    I think that in the near future the world will be fully mapped in a 3D point cloud, or at least parts of it e.g. the west. As long as that is benign then people wont be able to get away with crimes, and will have 'freedom'. I say that because people will always want to take things they cannot otherwise obtain, and I don't think that would change if we removed the state.

    Equally, the ability to 3D print food, new skin, and the elixir of life [already available for mice] that removes the disease of old age, will change everything. Without need there is no need to steal, having said that I still think people will steal.

    Though I still hope that a state free society is possible over time. Its just a shame that people are :wub:s, but that's possibly because our genes are largely the same as when we were vikings etc.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    Of course it's possible, but improbable today due to encroaching civilization. It's the basis for all tribal culture. While property ownership is limited in such tribal villages, they did most often maintain spousal arrangement, but you can certainly find places where that is not true.So some moral framework exists, even with judgement by tribal elders or the group.

    For such a society to exist of noble savages, there has to be a very low population to live upon uncontested territory and be able to support that tribe with adequate food, water, fuel (for fire), building materials, clay, rock, medicinal herbs, etc. Otherwise trade is needed, and any trade results in contamination of tribal beliefs and brings conflict. Only distance causes no challenge to the tribal region.

    Disasters through adequate regional challenge, a loss of one of the above leads to migration, and you have war. Because tribes tend to grow over time if successful, and because of damage to the gene pool with no diversity, most noble savages have hospitality laws to allow a transfer of healthy well skilled males into their tribe, or export them as they are challenges to the leadership of the chief.

    So that means carrying capacity, a tribe having some centering focus, or else a tribe never evolves.

    This is very basic anthropology.

    If there's lots of carrying capacity and very low population density, then a strong male would leave with a strong female, and a few others of likemindedness and create a new tribe. That was healthy and also meant less drain on carrying capacity, less challenges to local leadership, no alteration of cultural rituals, and peace instead of war. Potentially it was intentionally done with strong willed young men to create a new colony. Why? That protects the borderlands of the tribe, an advanced warning system, and all of the above. The new colony are sentries and potentially able to gather trade materials for the original tribe.

    99% of the time this means agriculture and animal husbandry. Fertilizer is needed to support the crops. Hunter-gatherers are too contingent upon adequate game, and these migrate. That makes subsistence hunting/fishing very bleak. The Innuits can do it, but of course most don't live that isolated. They mostly live in towns, but some live on the far outskirts, and hunt/fish so subsistence, and trap and exchange pelts for trade items.

    It's entirely possible to live as a Noble Savage. What do you think the Pioneers were when the first arrivals?
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; August 14, 2014 at 07:53 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    Are tribes particularly different to states in anything but size?

    Take for example ancient British tribes, they had a thing called 'honour worth' in which everyone had
    specific roles and positions in society.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    Quote Originally Posted by Amorphos View Post
    Are tribes particularly different to states in anything but size?

    Take for example ancient British tribes, they had a thing called 'honour worth' in which everyone had
    specific roles and positions in society.
    Specialization is problematic but also essential. Someone will be a leader. Someone needs to be the shaman. That originally was the maintainer of culture, the healer, the counselor, the judge. Artisans arise who excel at making something and can get trade items in exchange. Someone is a better hunter, trapper, fisherman. Someone fabricates. Most however pitch in to do agricultural things. The harvest comes in of livestock, and that means butchering, skinning hides, rendering fat into candles, drying meat, etc. Annual harvests mean cooperation. Storing up adequate fuel and food to last through the winter. Proper tribal location for water based upon season.

    Too much specialization happens when the original tribe sends too many colonies out of noble savages. In turn, the chief seeks to get the best specialists from these colonies and creates conflict. That especially happens with healing, soldiers, certain crafts, etc. Then the colonies end up as serfs to the main colony and Feudalism.

    You can read them free here.
    http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/1286

    Specialization can lead to property ownership, and denial of resources, and an inability to get trade items.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; August 14, 2014 at 08:02 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    Seems to me there are two different concepts here, a society inhabited by paladins or people who are naturally inclined to follow a benign and cooperative code of conduct, or someone whose primitiveness allows him to be in touch with nature and through that follows some form of golden rule.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    My experience [kinda] of tribalism comes in the form of the hippy convoy, back when I was young. Most people got on and cooperated, we considered the collective as 'family', but there were plenty of rip-off merchants. Perhaps with the addition of weapons that would have happened less, but then that would probably be like the wild west?

    People are a product of evolution atm, so its imperatives will drive people to take what they can get. Perhaps after many thousands of years of modern civilisation and a lack of need, we may arrive at a natural harmony. Or maybe genetic manipulation in the near future may remove evolutionary trends.

    You guys generation [if you are young] will be facing such changes, not to mention no old age! When that occurs changes will be forced upon us. I mean, would you accept it if just the rich became 'immortal', or if everyone didn't age, can we accept poor and starving 3rd world peoples from living a long life of suffering?
    Last edited by Amorphos; August 15, 2014 at 10:54 AM.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    Tribalism happens naturally in pioneer societies. No human being has all of the skills needed to live alone. Even if they might seem to possess them...including medicine, then he/she might get ill and require care. As such, unless things begin in a hostile manner due to perceived competition for the carrying capacity of the land, then individuals cooperate. Ultimately there are problems with security that cause a group cohesion. Besides that happening, marriages need to occur and in isolation there are few choices other than transporting people in within your culture, or the hospitality laws to extend this to sojourners to gain new spouses to enhance the gene pool.

    This only seems rare, but the Noble Savage was actually the most common before Feudalism. Just this week another Amazon tribe, that had never made contact with the outside world, was forced to flee from drug traffickers and encountered postmodern civilization. Encroachment results in terrible effects. Less than a month ago, another isolated Amazon tribe made contact with the outside world, and got ill since they have no immunity to our common illnesses.

    That factor is actually an important aspect of why Noble Savage civilizations fail, for even if they desire trade, the lack of immunity results in their potential peril. Those at the crossroads of civilization, say medieval France, then gain the benefits of trade, cultural exchange, scientific knowledge, additions to the gene pool, and increased immunity due to perpetual outside contact. But in the short run they have more contagion until that immunity is expressed.

    There certainly are communities who have attempted to create noble savage-like communities. Communes were not uncommon in the sixties, and from these the Back-to-Land movement sprung up, fostering many such experiments where the community existed but was spread out due to agriculture and animal husbandry.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; August 15, 2014 at 04:29 PM.

  14. #14
    GussieFinkNottle's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Britain
    Posts
    2,239

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    The idea that an anarchic state was the most peaceful for humanity or that the 'noble savage' is an accurate representation of primitive humans is most meticulously deconstructed in Steven Pinker's 840-page tome 'The Better Angels of Our Nature'. Nonstate societies are the most dangerous and unpleasant of all and contrary to popular representation, the 'leviathan' state with a monopoly on legitimate use of violence and social norms surrounding rights and treatment of others as well as a social conscience have ensured that the societies of Australia, New Zealand, North America and Western Europe in particular are the safest and most advanced history has ever produced, and an idyllic/utopian view of an anarchic past is not just unfounded, but wildly wrong.

    Be glad you live in the world today, and I heartily recommend the book to anyone interested in the times we live in or human nature. Anarchy is an immature political philosophy. The same applies to Nationalism or ideologies that subjugate the rights of the individual to the glory of the society like fascism or communism.
    A home without books is a body without soul - Marcus Tullius Cicero

    If you rep me, please leave your name. Thx

  15. #15
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    Quote Originally Posted by GussieFinkNottle View Post
    The idea that an anarchic state was the most peaceful for humanity or that the 'noble savage' is an accurate representation of primitive humans is most meticulously deconstructed in Steven Pinker's 840-page tome 'The Better Angels of Our Nature'. Nonstate societies are the most dangerous and unpleasant of all and contrary to popular representation, the 'leviathan' state with a monopoly on legitimate use of violence and social norms surrounding rights and treatment of others as well as a social conscience have ensured that the societies of Australia, New Zealand, North America and Western Europe in particular are the safest and most advanced history has ever produced, and an idyllic/utopian view of an anarchic past is not just unfounded, but wildly wrong.

    Be glad you live in the world today, and I heartily recommend the book to anyone interested in the times we live in or human nature. Anarchy is an immature political philosophy. The same applies to Nationalism or ideologies that subjugate the rights of the individual to the glory of the society like fascism or communism.
    Pinker who I am a fan of does nothing to refute Kroptkins analysis and mostly focuses on a post hunter gather civilisation, semi agriculturalist and he is subject to critcisims of exagerration.

    Also the idea that something is an immature political philsoophy, well that is an immature criticism from an immature person.

  16. #16
    GussieFinkNottle's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Britain
    Posts
    2,239

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Pinker who I am a fan of does nothing to refute Kroptkins analysis and mostly focuses on a post hunter gather civilisation, semi agriculturalist and he is subject to critcisims of exagerration.

    Also the idea that something is an immature political philsoophy, well that is an immature criticism from an immature person.
    In fact, Pinker 'who you are a fan of', focuses a great deal on how in anarchic, pre-agricultural societies, humanity's propensity for Hobbesian violence is given free reign and for this draws not only on fossil/skeletal record but also on contemporary hunter gatherer societies such as some jungle dwellers. He goes into great depth on the psychological legacy of evolution that has left us with great facility for predatory violence, and which benefits therefore from the constrictions of pacifist and empathetic social norms of a civilised society as well as the legal oversight of a leviathan.

    And again you decide to go with insults as a debate tactic, you seem to be following me around to scoff at my points. On the contrary, it is perfectly legitimate to describe a worldview as immature if it is based on (intuitive) utopian conjecture (with no grounding in reality) that would put people in danger and halt progress if put into action as opposed to a philosophy that remains defensible with the evidence on the table, and in the context of the sweep and genuine trends of history.

    On an unrelated note, fundamentally effective politics would be more concerned with what works than what fits a worldview/ideology, though I understand that this at least is an unrealistic expectation.
    Last edited by GussieFinkNottle; August 16, 2014 at 07:14 PM.
    A home without books is a body without soul - Marcus Tullius Cicero

    If you rep me, please leave your name. Thx

  17. #17
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    Quote Originally Posted by GussieFinkNottle View Post
    In fact, Pinker 'who you are a fan of', focuses a great deal on how in anarchic, pre-agricultural societies, humanity's propensity for Hobbesian violence is given free reign and for this draws not only on fossil/skeletal record but also on contemporary hunter gatherer societies such as some jungle dwellers. He goes into great depth on the psychological legacy of evolution that has left us with great facility for predatory violence, and which benefits therefore from the constrictions of pacifist and empathetic social norms of a civilised society as well as the legal oversight of a leviathan.
    And yet does not go into Kroptkins evidence unfortunately it is a less than convincing case. He focuses on a post hunter gatherer paradigm.

    And again you decide to go with insults as a debate tactic, you seem to be following me around to scoff at my points. On the contrary, it is perfectly legitimate to describe a worldview as immature if it is based on (intuitive) utopian conjecture (with no grounding in reality) that would put people in danger and halt progress if put into action as opposed to a philosophy that remains defensible with the evidence on the table, and in the context of the sweep and genuine trends of history.

    On an unrelated note, fundamentally effective politics would be more concerned with what works than what fits a worldview/ideology, though I understand that this at least is an unrealistic expectation.
    Oh I'm sorry I'm being overly personal....says the person labelling an entire movement as infantile. Yes OK I'm sure that is correct. Perhaps if you could contain your giant ego and giant opinions and manage to make points without insulting whether generally or personally things might go better for you. Either way make SPECIFIC points such as specifically about pinker thesis and refrain from insulting vast swathes of opinion based on conjecture you might do better.

    For instance what qualifies you to make that opinion infantile? What is infantile I mean I'd presume it to be very basic mathematics, as in the ability to write ABC, or put 123 together. Because you think anarchism is wrong, you degrade people who have devoted lives to it to the ability to string ABC and 123 together.

    Sure you feel insulted. I'm sure that is a big shock to you. Well done. Now try and put A and B and C together.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    Well, I'm grateful for another book on my reading list like Steven Pinker's 840-page tome 'The Better Angels of Our Nature', while others argue about the meaning of it.

    Whether such tribal societies are anarchist or not, who knows? I'd think the more complex the society with specialists, the less that the society could be seen as anarchist due to that alone. Or that colonization was constantly happening to avoid carrying capacity issues, and even this had to be carefully managed since some of these followed herds that migrated, so the tribe had to migrate too. Which means moving into another colony of the same tribe and placing a burden on carrying capacity.

    If one want to live in an anarchist society, well move to Alaska with your family and start your own tribe. Which will work until there's the eventual challenge to the leader's authority.

  19. #19
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    Well, I'm grateful for another book on my reading list like Steven Pinker's 840-page tome 'The Better Angels of Our Nature', while others argue about the meaning of it.

    Whether such tribal societies are anarchist or not, who knows? I'd think the more complex the society with specialists, the less that the society could be seen as anarchist due to that alone. Or that colonization was constantly happening to avoid carrying capacity issues, and even this had to be carefully managed since some of these followed herds that migrated, so the tribe had to migrate too. Which means moving into another colony of the same tribe and placing a burden on carrying capacity.

    If one want to live in an anarchist society, well move to Alaska with your family and start your own tribe. Which will work until there's the eventual challenge to the leader's authority.
    Despite what I said above I love Pinker, I highly recommend looking at his talks on Chomsky and linguistics on Youtube (8 part interview I believe) and his work en masse is wonderful. But at the same time from his work he has deduced certain things that I would (without certainty) disagree with having read other extrapolations from equally smart men. That being said I'm in no way tied to any movement and I think whether you ask Pinker, Harris or any other contemporary thinker they'll unite in calling for any evidence based approach and I'd do a jack booted march for evidence based thinking.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Noble Savage, possible or impossible

    I think the Pinker book is a good read on this topic, and from a completely different angle, so is this: http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520226104

    The publisher's description is fair enough:

    In this important and original study, the myth of the Noble Savage is an altogether different myth from the one defended or debunked by others over the years. That the concept of the Noble Savage was first invented by Rousseau in the mid-eighteenth century in order to glorify the "natural" life is easily refuted. The myth that persists is that there was ever, at any time, widespread belief in the nobility of savages. The fact is, as Ter Ellingson shows, the humanist eighteenth century actually avoided the term because of its association with the feudalist-colonialist mentality that had spawned it 150 years earlier.

    The Noble Savage reappeared in the mid-nineteenth century, however, when the "myth" was deliberately used to fuel anthropology's oldest and most successful hoax. Ellingson's narrative follows the career of anthropologist John Crawfurd, whose political ambition and racist agenda were well served by his construction of what was manifestly a myth of savage nobility. Generations of anthropologists have accepted the existence of the myth as fact, and Ellingson makes clear the extent to which the misdirection implicit in this circumstance can enter into struggles over human rights and racial equality. His examination of the myth's influence in the late twentieth century, ranging from the World Wide Web to anthropological debates and political confrontations, rounds out this fascinating study.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •