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Thread: Reports from the front

  1. #1

    Default Reports from the front

    We all know the RTW battlefield AI sometimes has trouble getting out of its own way. On occasion, though, it can pull itself together and surprise you. Last night during some "pre-alpha testing" I was handed a defeat by the Empire of Harad. I wrote up a report (below) and shared it with the other devs, but then got to thinking - what's the most interesting or enjoyable way you've been beaten by the AI?

    Feel free to share your own battlefield stories!


    -----------------------

    Last night I'm playing as Rhun - and doing pretty good, having wiped out Dorwinion and North Rhun, and pushed Rhovanion and Adunabar back a bit. My alliance with Khand has held strong for the entire game (and the year is something like 397 or 400!).

    I notice that Khand is once more at war with Harad. This worries me, because earlier Harad had owned Khand as a protectorate, and if there's one thing I don't need, it's a big war at my southern border. So I decide I can afford to throw together a decent-enough army and send it south, to help Khand and maybe snatch a town away from Harad.

    I send a spy down south to see what's been going on. Far Harad is gone, and it looks like Khand had a hand in that, because Khand now owns some of its provinces. But Harad owns some as well, and what's more, Harad has Khand under siege in a couple of places. Saddle up!

    My army consists of mostly the basic Axemen, with a good helping of archers/slingers, a couple skirmishers, a couple units of light cav, and my general (who is an Inept Commander, but I figured what the heck - it's just the AI, right?)

    I send my guys down to Khand's capital, where a Haradrian stack is besieging it. Together, we manage to scare off the Southrons before a bowshot is fired; they retreat off the battlefield.

    I notice lots of Haradrian stacks hanging around. Like, lots. Big deal! It's just Harad - those stacks are probably full of the Footmen and other weak infantry units. My army marches farther south, aiming for the province directly south of Khand's capital, which is owned by Harad and only lightly garrisoned. My plan is to take that settlement and build up to Tributary Camps there, since it's in a 'Khand' region - that should allow me to train some of the neat Khand-based units. I figure I can hold off a few waves of Haradrian conscripts and come out of this with a secure base in the south. I indulge, briefly, in fantasies about my fierce armies sweeping across the southlands, my wains slashing through the desert sand.

    Next turn, I am attacked by a Haradrian army led by a lieutenant. It's ... stronger than I pictured. The supposedly trash infantry is actually some hardened units of swordsmen, and the cav wing consists of several Scarlet Shields, in addition to some lighter horse. I manage to pull off a victory with my missile superiority, but it isn't pretty. The heavy cav spends too much time running down my archers and slingers, so my axemen have free rein to hack up the enemy foot and any cav in the vicinity.

    Same turn, another attack. This one is led by a general, with roughly the same army composition as before. Those Scarlet Shields are worrisome, and it occurs to me that I didn't really bring anything to deal with those guys. My wains and heavy cav are coming down from the north, but they're several turns away. I didn't bother with any armored spearmen, since I was "just fighting Harad". And while I still have around 8 units of axemen, they're only mid-tier, and will get crushed if the AI manages to pull off a charge.

    If the AI manages to pull off a charge.... what am I saying?! When does that ever happen, right?

    I set up my army a little differently this time, basically using the initial arrangement offered by the game, with a few missile troops up front, then a 'checkerboard' formation of my axemen, backed by a row of archers. My general and couple units of Eastland Raider cav wait behind the archers. I send a lone merc unit of HAs ahead to thin out the enemy cav and maybe pull them out of formation.

    No dice. The enemy army marches forward in perfect cohesion. My HA's arrows clatter off the scaled bronze armor of the cavalry. I fiddle with the facing of my main body of troops, turning them towards the enemy as they approach.

    The Haradrian cavalry surges forward as a single body, a blur of bronze and scarlet and tan. I'm powerless to prevent their maneuvering, and can only watch as the enemy horse lines up along my right flank while the Southron infantry faces my front. I peel off a line of axemen - some four under-strength units - to meet the riders, and send my general and 2 cav units in a headlong charge against them. Some part of me is thinking, if I can Warcry and catch the cav off-guard, I might be able to pull this off....

    Before I can turn back to the enemy infantry, the Haradrians charge in perfect coordination. Their cavalry rides down my axemen before they are formed up, while their swordsmen launch javelins and sprint to come to grips with my feeble front line. While some of my units fight on, I know this is all over. Maybe a minute later, my general goes down in a swirl of scimitars, axe in hand. The shattered remains of my army retreat into Khandian territory. We'll see if they can run the gauntlet of Haradrian stacks and make it back north for retraining.

    It was actually such a great example of maneuvering and decisive action on the part of the AI that I didn't mind losing. You get used to the AI doing silly things in this game, like running back and forth in front of your lines, getting shot up by your missiles the whole time, or charging foolishly head-on into your superior formations. But the AI beat me fair and square. My chieftains won't be so dismissive of the Men of the South from now on...
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  2. #2

    Default Re: Reports from the front

    These are the battle that make any mod fun. I'm just hoping that we can experience them as well sometime soon?!

    Nice read... once again! I especially like this one:
    I indulge, briefly, in fantasies about my fierce armies sweeping across the southlands, my wains slashing through the desert sand.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Reports from the front

    Yeah, I figured it wouldn't be *too* much of a tease since the fight involved factions that currently exist in TNS. But we're all looking forward to release, and things are certainly moving along thanks to everyone's dedication and the help of some skilled new members.
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  4. #4

    Default Re: Reports from the front

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    But we're all looking forward to release, and things are certainly moving along thanks to everyone's dedication and the help of some skilled new members.
    That's great news,guys!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Reports from the front

    What types of cavalry units does Rhun (without Khand) have in this version? I'm guessing the light mounted axemen from previous releases plus some heavier lance+sword armed cavalry?
    Also, can you tell me whether Rhun and Rohan have mounted skirmishers (with javelins) this time around? IMO they are crucial to defeating elephant units.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Reports from the front

    Count will know .
    Last edited by Bercor; August 01, 2014 at 09:22 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Reports from the front

    Rhun's native light cav is different this go-round, but most everything remains the same, with the major exception of the bodyguards no longer riding wains (though wains are trainable as a regular unit).

    AFAIK Rohan's rosters is essentially the same as in TNS - and in TNS, Rohan has some jav cav.
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  8. #8
    Thangaror's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Reports from the front

    Interesting read. Even more interesting AI action. I have been caught off-guard by the AI and some units suffered heavy losses but I've never been defeated unless hopelessly outnumbered.


    Well, Rohan has Riders of Rohan with two meager javelins...
    And I hope Easterling Raiders are gone for good, their design and armour was ridiculous.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Reports from the front

    I've seen that behavior again since that battle - the AI taking the initiative to flank in an organized way. (It didn't work for them the second time, though!)

    The Easterling Raiders are still there as a unit, but their appearance is more rough & realistic, IMO. (In other words, no more gladiator-style armor and mask.)
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  10. #10
    Civis
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    Default Re: Reports from the front

    How does Dorwinion usually play out on the battlefield?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Reports from the front

    Unit stats and attributes are currently being calculated, so it's not possible to give a precise account. But Dorwinion is an infantry-heavy faction with its core units focusing on spears and polearms, with the support of some lighter, more rugged 'wilderman' troops. It's hard actually to think of RTW analogues, but you can imagine that the main idea is to choose the ground carefully, try to neutralize enemy archers and then close in, where your heavy(ish), disciplined infantry can deal out damage while the lighter support troops flank.

    I guess, oddly enough, Dorwinion's *general* battlefield approach is somewhat similar to Dunland's in that regard. With the caveat that Dorwinion of course lacks the barbaric offense troops of Dunland.
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  12. #12
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Reports from the front

    Speaking of ignominious defeats at the hands of the AI, I just got my ass handed to me by the defenders of Minas Ithil. Those ballista towers are ridiculous. What is in there, machine guns?
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
    Proud supporter and fan of Fourth Age: Total War

  13. #13

    Default Re: Reports from the front

    Heh, I'm pretty sure that's just the vanilla tower uberness.
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  14. #14
    Basileos Predator's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Reports from the front

    Yeah, I hope they'll be properly nerfed in DoM, as they get me crazy when assaulting cities in IB SAI and that's wayyy too op and unrealistic.

  15. #15
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Reports from the front

    Quote Originally Posted by Basileos Predator View Post
    Yeah, I hope they'll be properly nerfed in DoM, as they get me crazy when assaulting cities in IB SAI and that's wayyy too op and unrealistic.
    Doesn't seem to be the case so far.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
    Proud supporter and fan of Fourth Age: Total War

  16. #16

    Default Re: Reports from the front

    I'm not speaking for the team in this, but in some situations the super-powerful wall defenses could be thought of as simulating an especially well-fortified city or tower location.

    In NI, for example, certain settlements on the map were (in real life) the location of an *extremely* defensible stronghold - think of some of the hilltop forts of pre-Norman Britain, such as Dumbarton on the Rock of Clyde, which were situated on rocky cliffs with just one winding road approaching the single entrance. Some of these places could have held out against an insane number of attackers with just a skeleton crew of defenders thanks to the terrain alone.

    But the idiosyncratic terrain can't be represented on the battlemap (not without seriously screwing up the AI, probably), so the only way to simulate the strength of the defending location was to give the towers those crazy defenses. It's not an ideal solution, but it's the most feasible way (AFAIK) to represent the difference in defensibility between some settlements.

    I'm not sure to what extent this thinking is operating in FATW, but if nothing else it's something to perhaps make you feel better when your troops are getting impaled by the half-dozens...
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  17. #17

    Default Re: Reports from the front

    Really interesting read.

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    I've seen that behavior again since that battle - the AI taking the initiative to flank in an organized way. (It didn't work for them the second time, though!)

    The Easterling Raiders are still there as a unit, but their appearance is more rough & realistic, IMO. (In other words, no more gladiator-style armor and mask.)
    Does that increased "smartness" have something with new mechanics introduced in DoM? If so, Aradan really makes wonders.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Reports from the front

    I think it's a (rare) vanilla behavior, but I honestly don't know.

    My suspicion is that, when the AI has an army of a certain composition, and it's facing a human army of a certain composition, it takes certain actions. Since Harad tends to create 50/50 cav/inf armies, it's probably more likely that they'll split up their forces into a front-facing infantry group and a flanking cav group.
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  19. #19
    Civis
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    Default Re: Reports from the front

    As a commander of Dale, what advantages and strategies can I use to defeat an army of the Reunited Kingdom? How does combat play put between these two some-what archer and infantry heavy juggernauts?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Reports from the front

    Good question. I'll try to answer as best I can, but please keep in mind that unit values are currently being worked on, so what follows is based on my impressions of how things are most likely to turn out, probably. This is also pure theorycrafting, since I haven't played a Dale-vs-RK battle yet (but even if I had, the value of that experience would be questionable due to my previous point.) Take it for what it's worth.

    The RK has probably the most celebrated archers in the game, but it's important to note that the King's Longbowmen are just one unit. In contrast, Dale has access to several units of longbowmen at several levels of military development buildings. In other words, while the RK's longbows may outshoot Dale's lower-tier longbows, the fact that Dale can train its archers at lower levels of development means it is likelier to have a greater proportion of longbows in its battles. The RK, on the other hand, has access to lower-tier bowmen (e.g. Gondorian Archers), which are not quite so effective as the great man-high longbows.

    Since you're playing as Dale, we have to assume an AI-created army for the RK, rather than the sort of thing a human player might do (such as training all-archer armies, or all-onager armies, and so on). The AI seems to favor mixed armies in its stacks, which means as Dale, you will be facing at most a few units of King's Longbowmen in any given RK stack. You should be able to bring enough longbows to the fight, thanks to your advantage in longbow availability, to deal with the AI RK's missiles.

    As we all know, the RK is also famed for its heavy infantry. And indeed, the RK has several advantages over Dale in this regard, producing not only superior spearmen but excellent swordsmen. Dale has a couple of sword units in its roster, as well as some quite respectable armored spearmen - the latter of which also carry a few throwing spears. But these units are unlikely to match the RK's best infantry in an even fight.

    So, when you can't beat them in a straight-up grindfest, you look to tactics. Dale can train some mid-tier spear-armed cavalry that can serve as respectable flankers. It can also train some elite, well-armed axemen - probably the ideal unit for tearing open those tin cans the RK likes to send down the battlefield. I'd have a line of Dale's best spearmen in guard mode to keep the main RK foot troops busy, then send those axemen around to the flanks, and encircle the whole scrum with cav, to aim some charges into the RK's backs. Assuming you've dealt with any RK cav and archers (which is the job for your own archers and cav, including your general, and any other heavies you need to take down their general), and assuming you've got enough numbers to pull the whole thing off, this ought to do the trick.

    There's another item in Dale's arsenal that can help even the odds against the RK. One of Dale's SBs allows for you to re-equip your men with Dwarven-crafted armor, offering a great advantage in the slow infantry fights you're like to face against the Dunedain. So prepare with the necessary buildings, train up your ideal army (or armies), and cross your fingers. The RK (and Adunabar) can be extremely effective, but an army of Dale, properly equipped, trained, and led, is also a force to be feared.
    Last edited by CountMRVHS; August 21, 2014 at 04:52 PM.
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

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