[Discussion] The Hobbit Influence

[Mr.Jox]

These are just concepts on second picture and if you look good you can find same helmets between concepts and screenshot(1st link).
Guys there's no point of making Gundabad and Dol Guldur orcs different at this point. If that's so hard to prove that Guldur and Gundabad orcs are different how in your opinion should members create them then? For the first release Dol Guldur will have a mix of Balchoth mercenaries, Mordor orcs, MM orcs, Gundabad Orcs, Trolls, Wargs. No own roster. (Maybe some AOR units)

[Azog of Gundabad]

Well in game to make them different, i have a couple of ideas and how i wiew the Gundabad orcs:
The Gundabad orcs should be the only pale orcs in the game.
The gundabad orcs have very different weapons, their halbeards for example are shaped like the fortress of Gundabad in the movie.
Also the shrunken dwarf heads that are shown in the concept art, they could be for Gundabad. (since none of the Dul Guldur orcs had them in the movie, while the Gundabad orcs had)
And the Gundabad orcs have black armor while the DOl Guldur orcs armor is more of a darker grey
The Gundabad orcs wear less armor, while the Dol Guldur orcs are covered from head to toe
And the Gundabad helmets in the clip i showed, they all have two spikes symbolizing their fortress (the spikes almost look like two uruk hai sword pointing at different directions)
And the Gundabad orcs shoulderpads are very large


But if you wont use different units for Dol Guldur and Gundabad, does that mean that the Dol Guldur army from the hobbit will be for Gundabad in game?
Anyways, i wouldnt have any problem with that, as long as they also get the trolls, so you can have an epic army like in the battle of the five armies^^

[Mr.Jox]

Well, as I said if there will be no good concepts to go, it won't be realised.
If you look good you can see that two spikes helmet on Dol Guldur orcs.
And the the true: Azog from Gundabad, Bolg from Gundabad and their orcs from Gundabad too.

[Azog of Gundabad]

Alright! Thats fine by me^^
But i didnt get that last part, so Gundabad faction will get the hobbit movie material the orcs and trolls? And Dol Guldur will just have a mix of different units?

[Mr.Jox]

Yes if someone won't prove there's a noticeable difference between Gundabad and Dol Guldur armies we will make hobbit orcs design as Gundabad orcs and use some of them for Dol Guldur faction. Maybe there will be small changes in armour for Guldur version.

[Azog of Gundabad]

Yes unfortunately theres not much of a difference..^^
But sounds great! And the armored trolls for Gundabad too?

Also will Azog and Bolg be in the faction? (Id rather have Azog, with the movie armor, fits the armored orcs better than Bolg..)

[DIABLONL]

Also will Azog and Bolg be in the faction? (Id rather have Azog, with the movie armor, fits the armored orcs better than Bolg..)

I don't think so because they are death at the start date of this mod. There will probably be a sub mod that adds them tough.

[Azog of Gundabad]

Well thats true, but they didnt die that far ago, and they are pretty much the greatest leaders of Gundabad ever known right?
But great if hteres a mod that adds them!^^

[Privatecamping]

O think that they could be added cos the mod is based on the movies and not on the books (if we folow the book then they would not be in ofc cos Azog was dead long ago the botfa and bolg was killed by Beorn)

[Mr.Jox]

Well if we follow film visualisation this doesn't change the fact we don't use lore. We base logic on lore and graphic art on films and artist concepts. That's the point.
But yes, we will use Trolls and no, we won't use neither Azog nor Bolg. Maybe only Azog battle armour for faction leader with orc real scale but not the Azog himself.

[Azog of Gundabad]

Well one thing i dont get, if you dont use lore, then why not use Azog, i think it adds a alot to it to have names on the characters, especially for characters we got to know better in the movies!
And in Edain mod, if you know of it, they named Azog only "the defiler" so that it wouldnt contradict the lore right a way, if this is the problem, then that could be a solution!

Anyways just having a character look like Azog is good enough for me^^
But will the leaders of Gundabad just be nameless then?

[Privatecamping]

I think that we can think of names that sound orkish

[Mr.Jox]

Sry if my text was a bit confusing. I meant we USE lore as logic base and films + concept arts as visual base.
Even if we make Gundabad leader with name Azog without refering to the film Azog, some people will get confused.
And leaders won't be nameless, I believe its not possible in Attila - to have nameless characters.
So, as PC has said we will use orcish names.

[Azog of Gundabad]

Np! And alright coolbeans!

[Ajax_Buck]

I disagree, i respect but disagree. The goat cavalry is nice! The Dwarves are my favorite race in Middle Earth. Sorry, im Brazilian. Tchau

[Mr.Jox]

I disagree, i respect but disagree. The goat cavalry is nice! The Dwarves are my favorite race in Middle Earth. Sorry, im Brazilian. Tchau

It's not canon and as I said I'm sure there will be enough submods including goat cavalry.

[Alkar]

Really good idea to add cavalry only for a better infantry flexibility.
But don't forget that they might not use the ponies during the battle, but before for a better placement, like the sails of the Roman ships which you can't and won't use during a battle.
Nevertheless I will keep in mind.

According to lore, Dwarves did not ride a steed in any fashion. I don't know if this matters at all for this mod but just putting it out there.

We gonna follow lore regarding unit sizes(in R2/Attila we can easy change unit's size so hobbits and dwarves will be small, dunedain a bit taller(not 100%) and orcs less than men). Color of orcish skins we will disscuss.

Their skin was either black or sallow if half-Orc.

We have to compensate the lack of infantry. You also have keep in mind that aragorn is not 100% human, has some elven blood. Naturally elves are super op in that aspect, but you have to balance stuff somehow
Another possibility would be to increase battle stamina (is there a difference in Attila) of the dwarves.
And I'm not sure whether gimli had so much trouble keeping up in the book.

Check this out:

www.lotrplaza.com/archives/index.php?Archive=First%20Age&TID=35452

In the books, Legolas, Aragorn, and Gimli covered an insane distance in their run through Rohan, and all three were the exceptional elite of their kind. I wouldn't base too much on that. All the same, Gimli in the books had no trouble keeping up, due to a great store of stamina.

I agree with almost everything. But dwarves dont use bows

Dwarves did use bows (if needed, which was hardly ever under the Earth), and there are no crossbows, as the setting of Tolkien's legendarium is in the remotest histories, nor are crossbows ever mentioned. In fact, although crossbows are never mentioned, war chariots are, such as the ancient Egyptians used.

I will give my 2 cents for dwarven missile units.

First off, what can they not have:
1, Longbows
2, Javelins

And what do we know they had;
1, Throwing Axes

Ok so to add to the dwarvish roster here is my cool idea. We know from the books and movies that hobbits and presumably dwraves used throwing stones. So i think the answer to dwarvish missile problems is dwarvish slingers. Give them short range, high ammo, low AP damage slingers. This could be supplemented by units such as "dwarvish scouts" (short bow unit) or Iron Crossbowmen.
So a dwarf missile roster could be:

Dwarven Stone Throwers (Light slinger infantry, leather armor and a hand axe)
Dwarvish Scouts (Mail, short bows and an axe)
Iron Crossbows (Plate armored crossbows, very expenisve with a 2 handed axe for backup capped to 1-2)
Iron Stone Throwers (Heavy Slinger Infantry with mail and an axe)
Noble Axe Throwers (Main armor with several throwing axes)

You can pick and choose which you want to make a balanced roster, but i dont see any of those as being overpowered, but they would keep the dwarves from being a rush only faction.

Please show me where Dwarves throw axes or stones.

Well for the earlier discussion, the pale orcs were from Gundabad, where theres a totally different climate and living conditions, so they were also larger than their kin from Mordor. And orcs were actually made from elves so i dont see why pale colour is a problem for the orcs.

But something i would like to see in the game very much is the Dol Guldur army, their armored trolls and orcs! I think its the most badass army we have seen so far in middle earth! (Also the Gundabad army was pretty badass aswell, hope that will have a part in the game also)
And Weta workshop has great material of it, but heres some anyways
http://i.imgur.com/BFU8gJp.png
http://www.thelandofshadow.com/wp-co...45825979_o.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFE6E9qAtuw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THu4gwA2GQA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDnugaioin4

And maybe not the trolls catapults, ogres, amputee trolls, or battering ram trolls.. they were just ridiculous.. But the other stuff, will that be in the game?

Climate and living conditions do not change skin color, genetics do.

Well i think a good idea for both the orcs of Gundabad and Dol Guldur would be to make them slightly bigger than their kin of Mordor. Its known that the orcs from the north are bigger and more fierce than the regular scum of Mordor.
And i think the Gundabad orcs should be pale while the Dol Guldur orcs should be darker. This would make both more unique size wise and how they look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LMIRK6riIc
Heres the Gundabad army marching. They are all pale, tall with broad shoulders, they have slightly less armor, and i belive they look a little bit more like savages. And their weapons are very different with the halbeards and their helmets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFE6E9qAtuw
And heres the Dol Guldur army, covered with armor from head to toe, tall, and more disciplined

Umm ... Orcs are better as you get closer to Sauron: better equipped and trained and the like. In fact, Barad-dur's garrison was largely of Uruks.

Well it was said dwarves were good at engineering (may be not correct word) and creating good equipment and such. So why not let them have crossbows? Dragons are kinda smth Medieval and dwarves always had a contact with them. It's way better to give them one-few units with crossbows than create a cavalry of dwarves.

Dragon legends have existed far, far before the Middle Ages.

Were not Anudril and Boromirs sword specifically stated to be longswords? Longswords appeared around the 13th century, long after Crossbows had become a staple of European armies.

I think crossbows would be a natural addition for dwarves although they do not appear in the books. (Then again what ranged weapons do dwarves use in the books? The bows from the hobbit hardly count)

"The Company took little gear of war, for their hope was in secrecy not in battle. Aragorn hadAndúril but no other weapon, and he went forth clad only in rusty green and brown, as a Ranger of thewilderness. Boromir had a long sword, in fashion like Andúril but of less lineage, and he bore also ashield and his war-horn." Here the word "long" is a simple description, describing that the sword was longer than most. This is in no way describing a Medieval "hand-and-a-half", "long sword", or "bastard sword" (as some called it ).

Well it was clearly understandable that dwarves elves and numenoreans/dunedain had very high technology level. Dol Amroth had Swan Knights. Afaik Knight firstly appeared when it was Middle Ages in Europe. Let's also remember about Gondor fiefdoms. Let's also remember dawrves had much better armour and weapon production than Gondor. So why dwarves can't have crossbows? Period is very close to Middle Ages from the description. Armour from films fits very good to described age even if it wasn't mentioned there was plate armour.

Well, if you are going by lore, plate armour is never once mentioned. In fact, the primary setting for the Third Age is around 4,000 BC. War chariots, as ancient as they are, are mentioned, as well as ancient Germanic "iron caps" (the one Gimli took from the horde of Rohan). If you were wondering, the dating is from Letter 211 of Tolkien.

• "Arda 'realm' was the name given to our world or earth.... ¶ ... [I]f it were 'history', it would be difficult to fit the lands and events (or 'cultures') into such evidence as we possess, archaeological or geological, concerning the nearer or remoter part of what is now called Europe; though the Shire, for instance, is expressly stated to have been in this region (I p. 12). ... I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'. ¶ I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place. I prefer that to the contemporary mode of seeking remote globes in 'space'. However curious, they are alien, and not loveable with the love of blood-kin. Middle-earth is not my own invention. It is a modernization or alteration of an old word for the inhabited world of Man, the oikoumenē: middle because thought of vaguely as set amidst the encircling Seas and (in the northern-imagination) between ice of the North and the fire of the South. O.English middan-geard, mediæval E. midden-erd, middle-erd. Many reviewers seem to assume that Middle-earth is another planet! *I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh." Letters No.211, p.283

Also, here is a purely astronomical discussion of the subject: http://tolkienforums.activeboard.com...th-chronology/

There are also some interesting tidbits on it here: http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=78909

[Mr.Jox]

According to lore, Dwarves did not ride a steed in any fashion. I don't know if this matters at all for this mod but just putting it out there.



Their skin was either black or sallow if half-Orc.



In the books, Legolas, Aragorn, and Gimli covered an insane distance in their run through Rohan, and all three were the exceptional elite of their kind. I wouldn't base too much on that. All the same, Gimli in the books had no trouble keeping up, due to a great store of stamina.



Dwarves did use bows (if needed, which was hardly ever under the Earth), and there are no crossbows, as the setting of Tolkien's legendarium is in the remotest histories, nor are crossbows ever mentioned. In fact, although crossbows are never mentioned, war chariots are, such as the ancient Egyptians used.



Please show me where Dwarves throw axes or stones.



Climate and living conditions do not change skin color, genetics do.



Umm ... Orcs are better as you get closer to Sauron: better equipped and trained and the like. In fact, Barad-dur's garrison was largely of Uruks.



Dragon legends have existed far, far before the Middle Ages.



"The Company took little gear of war, for their hope was in secrecy not in battle. Aragorn hadAndúril but no other weapon, and he went forth clad only in rusty green and brown, as a Ranger of thewilderness. Boromir had a long sword, in fashion like Andúril but of less lineage, and he bore also ashield and his war-horn." Here the word "long" is a simple description, describing that the sword was longer than most. This is in no way describing a Medieval "hand-and-a-half", "long sword", or "bastard sword" (as some called it ).



Well, if you are going by lore, plate armour is never once mentioned. In fact, the primary setting for the Third Age is around 4,000 BC. War chariots, as ancient as they are, are mentioned, as well as ancient Germanic "iron caps" (the one Gimli took from the horde of Rohan). If you were wondering, the dating is from Letter 211 of Tolkien.

• "Arda 'realm' was the name given to our world or earth.... ¶ ... [I]f it were 'history', it would be difficult to fit the lands and events (or 'cultures') into such evidence as we possess, archaeological or geological, concerning the nearer or remoter part of what is now called Europe; though the Shire, for instance, is expressly stated to have been in this region (I p. 12). ... I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'. ¶ I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place. I prefer that to the contemporary mode of seeking remote globes in 'space'. However curious, they are alien, and not loveable with the love of blood-kin. Middle-earth is not my own invention. It is a modernization or alteration of an old word for the inhabited world of Man, the oikoumenē: middle because thought of vaguely as set amidst the encircling Seas and (in the northern-imagination) between ice of the North and the fire of the South. O.English middan-geard, mediæval E. midden-erd, middle-erd. Many reviewers seem to assume that Middle-earth is another planet! *I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh." Letters No.211, p.283

Also, here is a purely astronomical discussion of the subject: http://tolkienforums.activeboard.com...th-chronology/

There are also some interesting tidbits on it here: http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=78909

Dude if you wanna mod completively based on books and lore then RoM is not what you are looking for.
As I said before: Films will be visual part of our mod and books will be logical part.
Are crossbows logical part? Are plate armours logical part?
There mentioned no crossbows but Not mentioned doesn't mean it couldn't be there. In fact we have 1-2 continents very bad described. There can be more nations and factions we don't know, more territories, more evil, more good etc. All books are describing mostly ME and partially Valinor but not other continents. You can't say there was no crossbows as it wasn't said there wasn't as same as there was.

[Alkar]

Dude if you wanna mod completively based on books and lore then RoM is not what you are looking for.
As I said before: Films will be visual part of our mod and books will be logical part.
Are crossbows logical part? Are plate armours logical part?
There mentioned no crossbows but Not mentioned doesn't mean it couldn't be there. In fact we have 1-2 continents very bad described. There can be more nations and factions we don't know, more territories, more evil, more good etc. All books are describing mostly ME and partially Valinor but not other continents. You can't say there was no crossbows as it wasn't said there wasn't as same as there was.

Well, if you would like to go with Medieval Age technology, crossbows would be great If you want to go with the technology of Middle-earth according to lore, then look to Biblical technology.

[Mr.Jox]

Well, if you would like to go with Medieval Age technology, crossbows would be great If you want to go with the technology of Middle-earth according to lore, then look to Biblical technology.

Crossbows and such are more like visual part of the mod so lore or other text won't affect it much. Besides Attila timeline is not Medieval Ages but units already use crossbows.
I know it's debatable and if there were no Uruk-Hai with crossbows in second lotr film then we wouldn't use crossbows but since Uruk Hai Crossbowmen took place in films then we will include it in mod and would be OK to include crossbows for other industry progress factions too (currently only for some dwarves planned).