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Thread: [UPD 20 AUG 16] Preview: Dwarves of Erebor

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahlor View Post
    Yeah sorry, that was quite heated from my part :$
    I did have another question, concerning dwarfs and minerals. Iron Hill dwarfs will probably have iron equipment, but what about Erebor? Since their main treasure is gold, will they have some visual reference to that? What about the other dwarf houses, do they have some sort of characteristic element, lice copper or wood or something? Will there be any Mithril in the game?
    I dont think so. I think that dwarven places are described like by elements (minerals) as for example Khazad dum a city of mithril Iron Hills a place with a lot of iron, Erebor like the place with a lot of gold and in Ered Luins there were a lot of everything (a lot of gems) so I think that the answer to your question is that the house is charactarised by the place that it inhabits and that place is charactarizesd by its ores and minerals

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Clenvey View Post
    My goal is it to create a completely different game experience with every faction you play. If every faction has the ability to have every kind of units you have no reason to change the one you want to play (except because of the design), because then you will play every faction with a similar tactic.
    So we need to be a little bit racist (Elves have good archers, dwarves have good armor and the orcs are weak, but many). Then you have to play each faction with a different tactic. Maybe one dwarven faction (Dwarves from the iron hills) are able to recruit them.

    That is just my opinion, but I don't have to decide it alone.
    Orcs are far from weak. They are much stronger than other races. Their only weakness is in their tactics, build, and equipment - usually shorter stature, arm length, poor armour, and a fickle, selfish attitude (horde random charges and retreats, little determined defense). Of course the Orcs of Barad-dur and Minas Morgul have less of these weaknesses (dedicated troops, not rabble of the mountains and mines). They are tall (Uruks) and are under the direct domination of the Wills of Sauron and the Wraith-lord (Witch-king), meaning they only route if something very, very serious happens, if at all. However, only the elite among the Orcs have superb armour, most only crude chain mail.

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkar View Post
    Orcs are far from weak. They are much stronger than other races. Their only weakness is in their tactics, build, and equipment - usually shorter stature, arm length, poor armour, and a fickle, selfish attitude (horde random charges and retreats, little determined defense). Of course the Orcs of Barad-dur and Minas Morgul have less of these weaknesses (dedicated troops, not rabble of the mountains and mines). They are tall (Uruks) and are under the direct domination of the Wills of Sauron and the Wraith-lord (Witch-king), meaning they only route if something very, very serious happens, if at all. However, only the elite among the Orcs have superb armour, most only crude chain mail.
    ...Actually, as far as I know, orcs can't be compared in martial technique and warfare with the Elves (mainly them, specially the high elves; the grace bestowed to the elves by Eru make them generally greater in any doing, or art), Dwarves (dwarves are very sturdy and resilient, live long and alone on the crafting and making of chainmails they cannot be equalled to none) and númenórëan men (which were a greater race of men). Could you lend me, or give me quotes from J.R.R. Tolkien that justifies your position? If I am wrong I want to know.
    Last edited by Berem; June 22, 2015 at 02:56 AM.


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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkar View Post
    Orcs are far from weak. They are much stronger than other races. Their only weakness is in their tactics, build, and equipment - usually shorter stature, arm length, poor armour, and a fickle, selfish attitude (horde random charges and retreats, little determined defense)
    So, basically, their only weakness is everything that makes a good soldier .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bercor View Post
    So, basically, their only weakness is everything that makes a good soldier .
    The only thing going for them is brute strength. Perhaps there is a way to make them deadly in close range? Anyway, the Numenoreans used to defeat them handily by forming a shieldwall and using their superb arm length to destroy the Orcs before they even reached them. At any rate they could be immensely deadly if well-equipped and bred from Men (especially under a good commander). It is said that Sauron was (if you could say it) "thankful" for the coming of the Evil Men from the East, for they fought ceaselessly in ordered formation, never routing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berem View Post
    ...Actually, as far as I know, orcs can't be compared in martial technique and warfare with the Elves (mainly them, specially the high elves; the grace bestowed to the elves by Eru make them generally greater in any doing, or art), Dwarves (dwarves are very sturdy and resilient, live long and alone on the crafting and making of chainmails they cannot be equalled to none) and númenórëan men (which were a greater race of men). Could you lend me, or give me quotes from J.R.R. Tolkien that justifies your position? If I am wrong I want to know.
    I was speaking of brute strength alone, sorry if I did not specify. Most Orcs only learnt of martial technique through situational means, i.e. helping their tribe (learning from their betters). The Orcs of Mordor directly linked to Sauron were however professionally trained and equipped (to some degree) - but this certainly did not annul their evil nature - perhaps their greatest weakness (selfishness, etc.). Elves had many lifetimes to perfect their techniques. Also, only very concentrated groups of Dwarves had the "superb" skill that you spoke of. Most Dwarves were weak fleeing remnants, like the Oracarni Dwarves for instance. When the Men of the East began to stir they simply didn't have the troops or armour to fight, and fled to the West.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clenvey View Post
    We want to use the confederation-system to split the House of Durin in many subfactions: Erebor, Iron Hills, Blue Mountains and so on.
    Erebor will be rich , but not as rich as in the movies.^^
    And you won't see stupid things like goats, but they will have access to mercenaries from Dale.
    We have A LOT of concept art for the dwarven units, so we are able to keep the factions individual, but with a main theme.
    If I may add input to the discussion, why and how would Dale sell cavalry to the Dwarves? That's what an alliance is for (an alliance of armies fighting). Dale has barely any men to defend itself, and "selling" units of cavalry to be under the command of Dwarves would be an alien and disagreeable concept to both Dwarves and Dalians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Picchioviola View Post
    Maybe it's based on the books (I've not played it), but nowhere in "The Lord of the Rings", "The Silmarillion", "The Hobbit" nor in every other book written by Tolkien is stated that dwarves ride anything but ponies, which obviously are not battle mounts.
    By the way, love the idea and your work, it's really amazing. May I give you a humble suggestion: I think that dwaven weapons are way too similar to the ones seen in "The Hobbit" trilogy. I didn't like them in the films because they are too WoW-ish. Maybe it could make a little more sense to portray them in a more medieval-like fashion. Just a constructive suggestion.
    Sorry if something is uclear, I'm not english native.
    Jackson really really messed up on The Hobbit - he went way too far. The Lord of the Rings should have stayed the happy medium between the reality of Tolkien's works (set in c. 4,000 BC) and idle fantasy worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clenvey View Post
    Of course. That's why Moria isn't a dwarven faction in the first place. The conquest of Moria gives the dwarves access to Mithril to upgrade their armor. This will be a long-term goal for all dwarven factions, because they are the only ones who can handle this material.
    Is this assuming the Balrog is defeated (only doable by Gandalf)? Also other races (in particular Elves and High Men) were quite capable of crafting with Mithril. Say rather that mining Mithril is very difficult, and only to be obtained from Moria since the downfall of Numenor and the lands of the Elder Time.
    Last edited by Mr.Jox; June 22, 2015 at 11:30 AM.

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkar View Post
    Also other races (in particular Elves and High Men) were quite capable of crafting with Mithril.
    Well, the smiths of Eregion were capable of crafting with Mithril, but they´re dead (most of them), and I never heard about Mithril-crafting humans.
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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Havelock Vetinari View Post
    Well, the smiths of Eregion were capable of crafting with Mithril, but they´re dead (most of them), and I never heard about Mithril-crafting humans.
    Numenorean descendants.

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Havelock Vetinari View Post
    Well, the smiths of Eregion were capable of crafting with Mithril, but they´re dead (most of them), and I never heard about Mithril-crafting humans.
    Me neither. I dont realy think thateven the great dunedain had the skills to work with mithril

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Privatecamping View Post
    Me neither. I dont realy think thateven the great dunedain had the skills to work with mithril
    The Numenoreans specifically gathered Mithril in the time of their waning (under the Shadow). There was even a king called the Mithril-king (in the Numenorean tongue of course). Also, they were super-men, taught by the Elves and the Gods. Even Sauron taught them. Heck, they would probably beat a dwarf into the dust in a contest of craft.

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Where the hell you took this info? I hope it comes directly from books and not internet?

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.J View Post
    Where the hell you took this info? I hope it comes directly from books and not internet?
    I think that these informations come from the internet.. I dont remember anything about this in tolkiens univers

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    From Unfinished Tales
    XV Tar-Telemmaite

    ...This King was so called because of his love of silver, and he bade his servants to seek ever for mithril.
    Wikipedia says his name means "Silver-handed".

    At the end of the day, mithril is just a type of metal and I don't think that smithing it would be too much harder than anything else. I don't remember any reason given for anyone not being able to use it. The only reason mithril is associated more with Dwarves than anyone else is because they were the greatest miners and therefore were some of the only people who could obtain it in any useful quantity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alkar View Post
    Heck, they would probably beat a dwarf into the dust in a contest of craft.
    That bit is made up. While the Numenorreans were some of the best smiths around during the height of their desire for power, I still don't think they could challenge the greatest Dwarves or Noldor across any age.

    I think the best way to show mithril in game is allow most factions the ability to build mithril mines but let the Dwarves build them deeper and fully exploit them just as they did in Moria before waking Durin's Bane
    Last edited by Dude with the Food; June 23, 2015 at 07:32 AM.
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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dude with the Food View Post
    From Unfinished Tales


    Wikipedia says his name means "Silver-handed".

    At the end of the day, mithril is just a type of metal and I don't think that smithing it would be too much harder than anything else. I don't remember any reason given for anyone not being able to use it. The only reason mithril is associated more with Dwarves than anyone else is because they were the greatest miners and therefore were some of the only people who could obtain it in any useful quantity.



    That bit is made up. While the Numenorreans were some of the best smiths around during the height of their desire for power, I still don't think they could challenge the greatest Dwarves or Noldor across any age.

    I think the best way to show mithril in game is allow most factions the ability to build mithril mines but let the Dwarves build them deeper and fully exploit them just as they did in Moria before waking Durin's Bane
    Exactly, the Numenoreans were quite familiar with Mithril (true silver, which was actually found in Numenor), especially this King. The Numenoreans were able to build the greatest ships, towers, and war machines of all time (no doubt under Sauron's knowledge). Dwarves don't stand a chance against the might and knowledge of Ar-Pharazon. The only location of Mithril mentioned in the Third Age is Moria. However, some, like the Elite of Gondor, had some Mithril armor. The average Dwarves were not in any way supreme in their craft. Only the greatest could create the best of items. However, there is no way the Numenorean remnant would beat them in a contest of craft, as most knowledge of Numenor given by the Elves, Gods, and Sauron was long gone. If you really desire to learn of the greatest smith of all time, look to Feanor. Personally, I only think of the Dwarves as little greedy, selfish, cowardly bastards (apparently everyone else in Middle-earth did so too lol ). There are of course many, many exceptions (such as the famed Gimli, for instance. At any rate they certainly could not create the Silmaril, the Elfstone, the Rings of Power, or anything else of that beauty, wonder, and power. However, they are quite capable of crafting superb gear of war. The best of this gear is of ages past, though (such as Gimli's coat of mail I believe). It is said that Dwarves had waned in craft of crafting and such but grown in craft of building, as happens with all races after a catastrophe or suchlike. My comment was certainly not "made up": it is my opinion (based on many things), that overall the Numenoreans could craft things of much greater power than any Dwarf, except perhaps armor. It is said that the arrows of Orcs did nothing against the Numenorean armor, that they crafted ships like Alcarondas (or similar, forgot exact name), Castle of the Sea. Such ships could hold and entire town and its provisions. They also crafted deadly steel-bows that all enemies feared. And I forgot which version (I believe its early drafts in The Histories of Middle-earth) the Numenoreans even crafted flying vessels and machines that could cast stone for "many leagues". One or both of those was only in early drafts, however, but I'm sure you get the picture. In smithying in metal alone Dwarves of the elite are probably the best in latter Middle-earth (tempering steel), for the great Elven and Numenorean smiths are quite gone. Indeed only the Elves perhaps could beat them in a contest of elite to elite in the former days.
    Last edited by Alkar; July 02, 2015 at 07:34 PM.

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.J View Post
    Where the hell you took this info? I hope it comes directly from books and not internet?
    Quote Originally Posted by Privatecamping View Post
    I think that these informations come from the internet.. I dont remember anything about this in tolkiens univers
    May I ask if you have read the series by Tolkien's son called The Histories of Middle-earth, and The Silmarillion? They are very helpful to me when it comes to things like this. I must admit though that I mostly have my memory to go on, and many details slip (but that memory is quite good, as a try to read the books once a year).

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Personally, I only think of the Dwarves as little greedy, selfish, cowardly bastards. They certainly could not create the Silmaril, the Elfstone, the Rings of Power, or anything else of that beauty, wonder, and power.
    Perhaps you need to reconsider the Nauglamir.

    Also, ship-building is hardly comparitive of ability to craft and build given that Numenor was an island and the Dwarves had an inherent fear or at least dislike of water. It would be just as much use as comparing underground cities in which I think Khazad-Dum, Erebor or nearly any other example of Dwarven settlement is far superior to anything the Numenorreans built. That's also taking into account that most of the initial ship-building techniques the Numenorreans used were learnt from the Elves of Beleriand and then Lindon while the Dwarves built their early great cities (Nogrod and Belegost) independently.
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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dude with the Food View Post
    Perhaps you need to reconsider the Nauglamir.

    Also, ship-building is hardly comparitive of ability to craft and build given that Numenor was an island and the Dwarves had an inherent fear or at least dislike of water. It would be just as much use as comparing underground cities in which I think Khazad-Dum, Erebor or nearly any other example of Dwarven settlement is far superior to anything the Numenorreans built. That's also taking into account that most of the initial ship-building techniques the Numenorreans used were learnt from the Elves of Beleriand and then Lindon while the Dwarves built their early great cities (Nogrod and Belegost) independently.
    The Nauglamir was a housing for the Silmaril, and held no true power of its own. For the boats, I was speaking of machines of war. Starting with Sauron's emphasis, the Numenoreans highly, highly emphasized machines of war, and became very deadly with them. I also said that the Dwarves were quite capable of being the best craftsmen with metal in the latter days of Middle-earth, with knowledge waning as it is. See, they put their entire life's existence into crafting and metal, and as the knowledge of other's wane (who were initially better than them) their knowledge goes steadily up. Also, I seriously doubt any Dwarven city is superior to Minas Tirith (Anor), Orthanc, or Minas Ithil. All knowledge has a source. The Elves and Numenoreans were taught by the Gods, the Numenoreans, Elves, and the Dwarves, Aule. While the Elves and Numenoreans faught to the death, Dwarves notoriously sat in mountains, enhancing their knowledge, until they too had unleashed for themselves the Darkness (a Balrog).
    Last edited by Alkar; June 23, 2015 at 03:14 PM.

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkar View Post
    May I ask if you have read the series by Tolkien's son called The Histories of Middle-earth, and The Silmarillion? They are very helpful to me when it comes to things like this. I must admit though that I mostly have my memory to go on, and many details slip (but that memory is quite good, as a try to read the books once a year).
    I used to read the Silmarillion but not finished it.

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.J View Post
    I used to read the Silmarillion but not finished it.
    How is it? What struck me was its unique style of writing, like a history, instead of first-person.
    Last edited by Alkar; June 23, 2015 at 03:23 PM.

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    omg i am so excited

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    Default Re: [Development] Preview Thread: Dwarves of Erebor

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkar View Post
    The Nauglamir was a housing for the Silmaril, and held no true power of its own. For the boats, I was speaking of machines of war. Starting with Sauron's emphasis, the Numenoreans highly, highly emphasized machines of war, and became very deadly with them. I also said that the Dwarves were quite capable of being the best craftsmen with metal in the latter days of Middle-earth, with knowledge waning as it is. See, they put their entire life's existence into crafting and metal, and as the knowledge of other's wane (who were initially better than them) their knowledge goes steadily up. Also, I seriously doubt any Dwarven city is superior to Minas Tirith (Anor), Orthanc, or Minas Ithil. All knowledge has a source. The Elves and Numenoreans were taught by the Gods, the Numenoreans, Elves, and the Dwarves, Aule. While the Elves and Numenoreans faught to the death, Dwarves notoriously sat in mountains, enhancing their knowledge, until they too had unleashed for themselves the Darkness (a Balrog).
    I would like to see quotes from J.R.R. Tolkien himself, or his talented profiteer, Christopher that confirm what you are saying about the dwarves. Also you seem to have a grudge against dwarves (I am not a small person, do not get me wrong), although Durin's folk was seen by their creator (Tolkien) as a noble race, and dwarves in general could be just "Good", "Evil", or honourable. To my knowledge the greatest in sheer size and grand colossal structures city ever build in Arda was Khazad-dûm; the walls of Moria, as it was latter called, were impregnable, were they not? Even the dwarves of late crafted an impregnable mithril gate for Minas Tirith after Sauron lost all his powers and was just a spirit of malice.


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