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Thread: Legionaries & Auxiliaries

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    Default Legionaries & Auxiliaries

    Some questions about auxiliaries, as I'm not sure exactly how they were used. Through a general interest in Roman history, I always thought the auxiliaries were used to fill the gaps in the Roman army where they were particularly weak in their early years, such as the cavalry and their missile troops. The standard legion I thought would be made of 10 cohorts of legionaries (4800) and about 200 cav auxilia attatched and the other 1000 would be various forms of auxilia, artillery, engineers, surgeons, generals. I thought the auxilia was part of the legion or included in the standard 6000 men. When I hear 'legion' I automatically think of a large bunch of legionaries, with small attachments of auxilia to support them. Then, in the preview section about the auxilia, there is a line stating 'In 101AD, Trajan led his legions, accompanied by thousands of auxilairies'. Does this imply that the auxilaries were just attatchments of the legions and would only be added to form a full legion of 6000 men during a campaign or do I have the wrong impression of what a legion was?

    With the detail RS2 gives surrounding the army, it's confused me a little and makes me wonder and ask questions as to how they were used.

    In the preview section it states that the auxiliary cohorts were either 'quengenaria' (500 strong) or 'millaria' (1000 strong), 480 men and 800 respectively. These auxilia were heavy infantry as well as missile troops and cavalry. In their stats in RS2, some are even as good as legionaries, and at a lower price, much lower, about half. Does this simply mean that auxilia were a cheaper way of recruiting non-citizen soldiers who were as reliable but at a lower cost?

    In RS2 the auxilia heavy infantry are given names, and in the preview section they are decribed as campaigning in Syria and Germania. It doesn't make it clear however if they were campaigning by themselves, or alongside the legionaries.

    Basically to make my questions simple:

    1) Were the auxiliaries used to provide specialised troops(such as cavalry) initially but during the empire they evolved to supply a cheap method of manpower as effective as the legionary?

    2) Were they attachments of the legions or were they in the legion itself?

    3) Is it historically accurate in RS2 to have armies that consist entirely of auxilaries and disband some armies of legionaries to save money?

    4) I remember somewhere reading that at it's height, the Roman empire's army consisted of 400,000 men. While this may not have always been true, how many on average would have been legionaries and how many were auxilaries?

    5) When playing RS2, when fortifying the borders with forts or 'limes', is it more historically accurate to create one fort for the auxilaries seperate alongside a fort of legionaries, or to create legion forts containing small amounts of auxillaries?

    At the moment I have about 20 active legions in my campaign, (85 settlements, just hit the 2nd rebellion, but put that aside), all numbered. Their armies are usually made up of 1gen,1 1st cohort, 8 cohorts, 2 artillery and the other 8 slots is made up of auxiliarys depending where they are be they archers, cav, cavalry archers or auxilary infantry. I have one small Praetorian army outside Rome. I also have a few forts throughout the empire consisting of very small amounts auxiliary infantry and and cav just to act like a peace time guard force. I have absolutely no forts consisting of large armies made up entirely of auxiliares near the borders. In summary I use auxiliaries purely as addition to the legion and they are used completely to support them.

    6) Is this use of auxiliaries accurate. If it is, there must have been fewer auxiliaries than legionaries, and my gut tells me that's not true. So really would there have been fortifications manned entirely by auxiliaries on the borders and would they have been as big as the legion forts?

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    Default Re: Legionaries & Auxiliaries

    ...

    4) More than half of her army

    ...

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    Default Re: Legionaries & Auxiliaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa19 View Post
    Some questions about auxiliaries, as I'm not sure exactly how they were used. ..............
    Quite a few questions - and it almost looks as though a short essay might be needed! I'm sure we can get there, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa19 View Post
    1) Were the auxiliaries used to provide specialised troops(such as cavalry) initially but during the empire they evolved to supply a cheap method of manpower as effective as the legionary?
    During the 'Middle Republic' (when the Mod starts) the Roman citizens (a farmer militia (Plebeian) with some 'aristocrats' (Equestrians and Patricians)) formed legions (a pair to each Consular Army (also paired)) and their Allies (the Socii) provided (normally) matching numbers of troops (but 3x the cavalry). Later, during the 'Late Republic', Roman citizenship had been granted (roughly) to all those in Italy proper and the legions became more full time propositions (raised from the increasing poor, many of them dispossessed farmers after rapacious land grabs and the need to serve away from home for longer periods). The Romans no longer provided their own cavalry and used allies and mercenaries; also for some specialised troops such as mercenary Cretan archers and Balaeric slingers.

    A legion was between 4-5,000 men, the latter becoming the standard - all Roman citizens. Under the Early empire (commonly referred to as after the Augustan Reforms) regularised units of non-citizens were formed (once pacified, often using the warrior types from conquered peoples and posted away from home) of both infantry (can be considered 'heavy', with a few archers) and cavalry and mixed units. These were in support, auxiliary to, the legions and tended to be used as garrison troops as well as direct support on operations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa19 View Post
    2) Were they attachments of the legions or were they in the legion itself?
    The auxiliaries are separate (non-citizens - being granted citizenship on discharge). There is evidence of 'lighter troops' always being a part of the legions, however, represented in the Mod as velites (early) or antesignanii (late)

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa19 View Post
    3) Is it historically accurate in RS2 to have armies that consist entirely of auxilaries and disband some armies of legionaries to save money?
    Sub-stacks of auxiliaries (representing a concentration of garrison forces to take on brigands and such) are reasonable; but in general it was the legions (plus support) that took on the heavy fighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa19 View Post
    4) I remember somewhere reading that at it's height, the Roman empire's army consisted of 400,000 men. While this may not have always been true, how many on average would have been legionaries and how many were auxilaries?
    Whilst figures conflict (depends on how many people believe may have been in 'quingenaria' and 'miliaria' units - and I have my own thoughts), it may have been as high as 60-65% auxiliary to legions; although I'm on the side of Tacitus who stated that it was more like 50-50 - which I see as a continuation of a deliberate policy back to the Middle Republic (matching Socii legions).

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa19 View Post
    5) When playing RS2, when fortifying the borders with forts or 'limes', is it more historically accurate to create one fort for the auxilaries seperate alongside a fort of legionaries, or to create legion forts containing small amounts of auxillaries?
    The legionary bases (when they were on the frontiers) were, it seems, just for the legions - often in pairs, but this changed to singletons by the end of our period. Auxiliaries (as noted) often in much smaller forts as garrisons. 'Trip-wire' forts would have auxiliary garrisons. On campaign they would normally stay together, however. Both are generalisations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa19 View Post
    At the moment I have about 20 active legions in my campaign, (85 settlements, just hit the 2nd rebellion, but put that aside), all numbered. Their armies are usually made up of 1gen,1 1st cohort, 8 cohorts, 2 artillery and the other 8 slots is made up of auxiliarys depending where they are be they archers, cav, cavalry archers or auxilary infantry. I have one small Praetorian army outside Rome. I also have a few forts throughout the empire consisting of very small amounts auxiliary infantry and and cav just to act like a peace time guard force. I have absolutely no forts consisting of large armies made up entirely of auxiliares near the borders. In summary I use auxiliaries purely as addition to the legion and they are used completely to support them.

    6) Is this use of auxiliaries accurate. If it is, there must have been fewer auxiliaries than legionaries, and my gut tells me that's not true. So really would there have been fortifications manned entirely by auxiliaries on the borders and would they have been as big as the legion forts?
    That's not inaccurate at all - do what suits you. Do you have some sort of 'auxiliary' unit as a garrison in each settlement? If so, then add all of those in and I'm sure you'll have nearly 50-50. The largest border forts (and perhaps some in newly conquered regions) could have contained perhaps 4 auxiliary units; bear in mind that the regular garrison of Hadrian's Wall and the German 'limes' (particularly along the Rhine and Danube and the gap between them were all auxiliary forts.

    A 'scale' factor is present in the Mod (as in vanilla) and a full stack of 20 represents: a 'Consular Army' of 2 Roman and 2 Allied legions first; and then 2 legions plus auxiliaries later; both about ~20,000 real men (so perhaps 4 legions during Caesars timeframe). The numbers you refer to in your stacks seem quite reasonable.

    A 'legion stack' would cover a stretch of border and settlements from a central location - with additional auxiliaries as garrisons and border guards. Take two 'legions' on campaign. That would be fairly realistic.

    A lot of generalisations there. The Wiki articles on the Roman Legion and Auxilia aree not too bad and worth a read. There's lots of information out there - not that I agree with all of it!
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    Default Re: Legionaries & Auxiliaries

    Quote Originally Posted by ur-Lord Tedric View Post
    A 'scale' factor is present in the Mod (as in vanilla) and a full stack of 20 represents: a 'Consular Army' of 2 Roman and 2 Allied legions first; and then 2 legions plus auxiliaries later; both about ~20,000 real men (so perhaps 4 legions during Caesars timeframe).
    4 Legions consisting of 20 units that seems unlikely as well as making little sense.. RP wise ofc. Kinda confused here :/

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    Default Re: Legionaries & Auxiliaries

    "... a full stack of 20 represents: ... perhaps 4 legions during Caesars timeframe"
    20 = 4x
    5 = x
    1 legion = 5 units
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    Default Re: Legionaries & Auxiliaries

    l33t math there mate ;3 That was my exact point 5 units/cohorts per legion. Sounds kinda, how should I say this, insufficient

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    Default Re: Legionaries & Auxiliaries

    Thanks, a lot of detail in that answer. The auxiliaries so by Imperial times, were regular army, and made up at least half? Served their 25 years with as steady pay, with citizenship at the end. They were recruited from the non-citizen population around the empire at a lower cost than the legionaries and were not permanently attached to legions (with the exception of the antesignanii) but rather supported them on campiagn, and in peace time they would hold smaller forts and outer outposts to allow the legions time to prepare in case of an invasion? As a general rule they did not make up the legion, but were seperate detachments of the army?

    When thinking of situations like Teutoberg, where Arminius and the auxiliary cav rode ahead of the legion, would that have been normal? As in was it normal for the legionaires to march seperately from the auxilia or did they simply think that the cav was acting like a scout force for them?

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    Default Re: Legionaries & Auxiliaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Doge Almighty View Post
    4 Legions consisting of 20 units that seems unlikely as well as making little sense.. RP wise ofc. Kinda confused here :/
    Yeah, I don't play that way either. In my campaign 1 full stack=1 legion. 20 units to one legion including the auxilia. That means 20 full stacks=20 legions. It might be a little overboard and put a lot of strain on the economy, but I prefer to play that way. I never mix the different legionaires into the same stack.

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    Default Re: Legionaries & Auxiliaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa19 View Post
    Yeah, I don't play that way either. In my campaign 1 full stack=1 legion. 20 units to one legion including the auxilia. That means 20 full stacks=20 legions. It might be a little overboard and put a lot of strain on the economy, but I prefer to play that way. I never mix the different legionaires into the same stack.
    Old Post I made years back.
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Legion-System
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    Default Re: Legionaries & Auxiliaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Doge Almighty View Post
    4 Legions consisting of 20 units that seems unlikely as well as making little sense.. RP wise ofc. Kinda confused here :/
    If you were as old as me and used to playing with figures and using representative scales - then it would make more sense.

    The early (Middle Republic) setting of RSII makes the easiest example here. A full Consular army is represented by a full stack of units and would therefore be pretty ideally represented by: 1 x General; 4 x Polybian 'Cohorts'; 1 x Roman Triarii; 2 x Roman Velites; 1 x Roman Equites; 4 x Allied 'Cohorts'; 1 x Allied Triarii; 2 x Allied Velites; 3 x Allied Equites; plus one unit to taste - perhaps Balaeric slingers.

    This would represent, proportionally, an army with a sprite to man ratio of about 1:12 on Large settings. Forget any ideas of 1:1 (which is why some peoples liking for Huge and settings even higher!). Thinking just of the Romans, it would be entirely suitable if we fought with 120 'sprite' units (so representing a full strength maniple) of heavy infantry and 30 'sprite' units of cavalry (representing a full strength turmae), especially given that they probably occupied the same ground space. But game 'maniples' and 'turmae' would represent RL multiples.

    Applying the same system under the empire would mean that each stack represented 2 legions plus auxiliaries and that would not be unreasonable; but like most I too have single 'legion' stacks - and the game/mod helps you to this with its possibility of 30 'legions' - but bearing in mind that at the height of the Republic (and what Augustus inherited) there would be about 60; so the scaling factor can still apply.

    Think 'scale' and 'sprites' in game representing a number of men and not just one - and this helps understand the loss rates too, that many seem not to easily grasp.
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