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Thread: Are Germans a mixed peoples?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Are Germans a mixed peoples?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTank View Post
    Mangalore, did you read the screenshot from the book "Ancestral Journeys:The Peopling of Europe from the First Ventures to the Vikings by Jean Manco." that I posted above your post?
    I don't see the screenshot.
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
    Mangalore Design

  2. #22
    TheTank's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Are Germans a mixed peoples?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangalore View Post
    I don't see the screenshot.
    Try this link.

    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attach...6&d=1406749375

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    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Are Germans a mixed peoples?

    ^All I see is a white dot.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  4. #24
    TheTank's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Are Germans a mixed peoples?

    The screenshot contained this text.

    The Germani

    The Germani entered Roman consciousness as unknown enemies, sud-
    denly looming from the misty distance. Not that the Romans had a
    collective ethnic name for the tribes who swooped upon them in 113
    BC, driven by the flooding of their own lands to look for a new homeland.
    Only as the frontiers of the Roman empire expanded up to the North
    Sea in the next century were the Cimbri securely located by Roman
    geographers in Jutland and the Teutones within Germania.
    The Germani were not a unified people. But they did have a language
    in common. Linguists have reconstructed that language — Proto-Ger-
    manic, the parent of a family of languages that includes Danish, Dutch,
    English, German, Icelandic, Norwegian and Swedish. Modern linguists
    named the branch after the most common Roman name for these
    peoples — the Germani, first mentioned by Julius Caesar.When Tacitus
    (AD 56-117) enquired of the Germani the origin of their name, he was
    informed that it just happened to be the name of the tribe who first
    crossed the Rhine and pushed into Gaul. While the tribe had since
    renamed themselves the Tungri, the terror-inducing name Germani had
    stuck in the minds of their enemies, and had also been recently adopted
    by the Germani themselves as the collective name for all their tribes.31
    The geographer Ptolemy described Germania as bordered by the Rhine,
    the Vistula and the Danube rivers, but in Greater Germania he included
    Jutland (as the Cimbrian peninsula). Also included was the Scandina-
    vian peninsula, described as a very large island called Scandia.The
    ancient Greeks and Romans did not penetrate deep enough into the
    Gulf of Bothnia to realize that Scandia was actually linked to Finland.

    The Germanic genetic mix

    The Germani apparently sprang from a mixture of peoples, so it is no
    surprise that they did not have just one predominant genetic marker, to
    judge by their descendants. If and when scientists find ancient Y-DNA
    from men whom we can guess spoke Proto-Germanic, it is most likely
    to be a mixture of I1, R1 a I a, Rlb-P312 and Rlb-U106, to name only
    the most common haplogroups found in speakers of Germanic lan-
    guages today. All of these are far older than the Germanic languages
    and some are common among speakers of other languages too.
    I1 may have appeared in the region among hunter-gatherers (see
    Chapter 4, 'Mesolithic DNA'). R1a1a is shared by Germanic, Baltic,
    Slavic, Iranian and Indic speakers, but its subclade RI ala lb 1 a3 (S221/
    Z284) seems notably Nordic in distribution.33 Rlb-P312 peaks in west-
    ern Europe and correlates best with the former Celtic- and Italic-speak-
    ing zone. [97] Its subclade Rlb-121 is strongly concentrated in the more
    northerly former Celtic-speaking region [see 75]. So the presence of
    Rlb-P312* and RI b-L21 in present-day Germanic speakers no doubt
    largely reflects the fact that Germani spread out over parts of the former
    Celtic area, such as the Alps, the Netherlands and lowland Britain,
    absorbing existing populations as they went. There has also been mi-
    gration from former Celtic areas into Scandinavia over the centuries —
    for example Scottish communities in 16th- and 17th-century Bergen
    and Gothenburg.34 Some of the 121 in Norway falls into subclades
    rarely seen outside the British Isles and can be presumed to have arrived
    from there. Yet most of the L21 in Scandinavia does not. So it is
    reasonable to assume that some Rlb-P312* and L21 arrived in Scandi-
    navia with Bell Beaker folk, or in Bronze Age trade. We should not
    imagine an impassable genetic divide between overlapping and inter-
    acting cultures. Some subclades of Rlb-P312 have a distinctly Nordic
    distribution. Those defined by L165/S68 and 1238/5182 are found in
    Scandinavia and the Northern and Western Isles of Scotland, which
    suggests that they are Norse markers which arrived in the Isles with
    Vikings.35
    Rlb-U106 has its peak in northern Europe and a distribution which
    correlates fairly well with Germanic speakers, past and present. [98]
    Countries with a linguistic division are particularly interesting. The level
    of U106 in German-speaking northeastern Switzerland is much higher
    (18.8 per cent) than in French-speaking northwestern Switzerland (3.7
    per cent).36 In Britain U106 levels are higher in eastern England (25 per
    cent) than in Wales, where a Celtic language survives. The lowest level
    is in northwest Wales (9 per cent), which has the highest percentage of
    Welsh speakers.37 The influx of French speakers into Dutch-speaking
    Flanders at the end of the 16th century is recent enough to be traced
    through surnames. U106 was found in 26 per cent of a sample of men
    with authentic Flemish surnames, but only 12 per cent of the sample
    with a surname of French origin, which is not much higher than the
    level in adjoining regions of France.38 As with other correlations be-
    tween a Y-DNA haplogroup and language, it is not a one-to-one rela-
    tionship with no possibility of cross-over. Such a divide would be as-
    tonishing in the real world. There was plenty of human movement in
    Europe before the fall of Rome. The fact remains that U106 seems to be
    a helpful clue to the movements of the Germani.
    A sprinkling of men within that distribution carry the parent Glade
    R lb-L11*, opening up the possibility that R1 b-U106 arose from Rlb-
    L11* in northern Europe. On the other hand, its density of distribution
    there suggests that it arose at the head of a wave of advance into the
    region.

    Proto-Germanic

    Linguists calculate that Proto-Germanic was spoken around 500 BC."
    A language develops within a communicating group. In the days before
    modern transport and the nation state, a communicating group could
    not cover a vast territory. The area in which Proto-Germanic evolved
    was far smaller than the spread of its daughter languages today. We
    would expect a linguistic boundary also to be a cultural boundary. So
    the finger points at the Nordic Bronze Age (1730-760 BC) as the cradle
    of Proto-Germanic. It was a comfortable cradle for many a year. The
    Nordic Bronze Age began in a welcoming warmth. An earlier climate
    shift made southern Scandinavia as warm as present-day central Ger-
    many. Groups of people from the widespread Corded Ware and Bell
    Beaker cultures had moved north into Jutland and the coasts of what
    are now Norway and Sweden. There they melded with descendants of
    the Funnel Beaker and Ertebolle people into a rich Bronze Age culture.40
    The wealth and technical excellence of its bronze objects is impressive.
    Trade was important to this society. So was seafaring. Voyages linked
    Jutland and Scandia into one communicating web.41
    However, the climate gradually deteriorated, bringing increasingly
    wetter and colder times to Jutland, culminating in so steep a decline in
    the decades around 700 BC that much agricultural land was abandoned
    and bog built up.42 Pollen history reveals a similar picture in southern
    Sweden. Around 500 BC forest encroached on areas that had long been
    farmland.43 Meanwhile an influence from eastern Sweden reached the
    southern Baltic shores in the Late Bronze Age, providing a clue to where
    some of the Scandinavian farmers were going.44
    Scandinavia was not utterly deserted in this period. Hunters and
    fishermen could survive where farming failed. The Saami even expand-
    ed. The original homeland of Proto-Saami is deduced to be southern
    Finland. Around 650 BC Kjelmoy ceramics spread west into Scandinavia,
    probably marking the arrival of the Saami speakers.45 Between AD 400
    and 1300 they lived over a larger area of Sweden than they do now.46
    Farming continued on some dry ridges, but it seems that many
    farmers shifted southward.47 If pre-Proto-Germanic speakers began
    spilling south out of Jutland, they would soon encounter the iron-
    working Celts expanding northwards. The Jastorf and Pomeranian cul-
    tures seem to be the result. These were Iron Age cultures in what is now
    northern Germany and Poland. [99] Though dearly evolving out of the
    Nordic Bronze Age, elements of the (Celtic) Hallstatt culture are detect-
    able. This was probably the time in which Proto-Germanic borrowed
    the Celtic words for 'iron' and cking:48
    So Proto-Germanic in the end was crafted out of crisis. It seems that
    its final development was in the compact region of the Jastorf and
    Pomeranian cultures. But by the time Tacitus was writing, Germania
    covered a far larger area. The border between the Roman empire and
    Germania was the River Rhine.49 An expanding language tends to split
    into dialects as the spread becomes too wide for constant communica-
    tion. Eventually these dialects develop into separate languages.
    Branches of the Germanic tree
    The first language to split away was East Germanic.50 The Goths, Gepids,
    Vandals and Burgundians all seem to have spoken forms of East Ger-
    manic, though the only written record is of Gothic. No language survives
    from this group.
    From 200 BC to AD 200 a warm, dry climate favoured cereal
    cultivation once more in Scandinavia.51 As farmers were enticed north-
    wards, the dialect that developed into Old Norse broke away from the
    core. It was recorded in runes from around AD 200 onwards. This was
    not a society with any great need for writing, but contacts with the
    Romans had familiarized some Germani with the Latin alphabet, which
    was converted c. AD 150 into a runic alphabet suited to the Germanic
    language.52 By around AD 1000 Old Norse was dividing into eastern
    and western dialects that later evolved into the modern Scandinavian
    languages.53
    Western Germanic evolved from the rump of Proto-Germanic, and
    began to split into separate strands with the migrations westwards. The
    earliest split came around AD 400 as groups of Angles, Saxons and Jutes
    left for England, where Old English developed. German, Dutch and
    Frisian are among the other living languages on this branch. Upper
    German is spoken in southern Germany, Austria and large parts of
    Switzerland; this whole region was once Celtic-speaking. Thus some of
    the most famous Celtic Iron Age sites, including Hallstatt and La Tene,
    are now within the Upper German-speaking zone. [100]

  5. #25
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Are Germans a mixed peoples?

    Great source bro.
    You know I never learned this in that Germanics class I took.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  6. #26
    irontaino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Are Germans a mixed peoples?

    Everybody, everywhere is mixed.
    Fact:Apples taste good, and you can throw them at people if you're being attacked
    Under the patronage of big daddy Elfdude

    A.B.A.P.

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