If Macedonians aren't Bulgarian then what?

[Treize]

I understand self-identification is the most important aspect of nationhood so if Macedonians seek to pretend to be a nation then be my guest. I mean it is very common with Flemings, Bosnians, Croats, Turks, Israeli's pretending with a straight face to be real historical nations. Good on them. But I still want to know the true origins of the Macedonians.

These people speak a language they call Macedonian which infact is a Bulgarian dialect. I mean one would assume they are part of the Bulgarians who invaded the region at the end of the early middle ages. Or atleast they are natives who got assimilated by these Bulgarians (more likely). Also they pretend in Greece there are many Macedonians who secretly speak Macedonian (i.e. Bulgarian) because they suffer from discrimination. Is there any truth in that?

[bekiristein]

I understand self-identification is the most important aspect of nationhood so if Macedonians seek to pretend to be a nation then be my guest. I mean it is very common with Flemings, Bosnians, Croats, Turks, Israeli's pretending with a straight face to be real historical nations. Good on them. But I still want to know the true origins of the Macedonians.

These people speak a language they call Macedonian which infact is a Bulgarian dialect. I mean one would assume they are part of the Bulgarians who invaded the region at the end of the early middle ages. Or atleast they are natives who got assimilated by these Bulgarians (more likely). Also they pretend in Greece there are many Macedonians who secretly speak Macedonian (i.e. Bulgarian) because they suffer from discrimination. Is there any truth in that?

And you oppened this thread? Its going to be a mess after few posts but i believe you know it.
There are some in Northern Greece especially around the city of Florina ( which is beautiful btw during the winter). They are not recognized as a minority in Greece, many of them left during and after the Greek civil war. I can't say how many there are but there was a political party which was representing them.
I don't know if it helps u.
http://ekloges-prev.singularlogic.eu...x.html?lang=en

[Treize]

And you oppened this thread? Its going to be a mess after few posts but i believe you know it.
There are some in Northern Greece especially around the city of Florina ( which is beautiful btw during the winter). They are not recognized as a minority in Greece, many of them left during and after the Greek civil war. I can't say how many there are but there was a political party which was representing them.
I don't know if it helps u.
http://ekloges-prev.singularlogic.eu...x.html?lang=en

I know it is a sensitive issue.

I couldn't give a damn if these people claim to be Martians or whatever. I just want to know their true, non propaganda BS, origins.

Are they just natives of the region who got assimilated into Bulgarian culture when the Bulgarians invaded the region and mixed with the natives?

But what makes them different from Bulgarians? They standardised a certain west-bulgarian dialect as "Macedonian". I mean it is a young state in search of an identity of its own and all that... Reminds me of Flemish people desperately pretending to be a nation as opposed to Dutch, going as far as claiming they have their own language (some claim this lol).

[Stavros_Kalmpou]

Well, they are called Rainbow (the political party) if I remember correctly. Their best election result, however, was in 1994, when they had around 7000 votes. The vast majority of them live in Macedonia (Greek Region, that is not a thread to argue over the name), mostly in Florina, as bekiristeinn correctly said above (my mother is from Florina, it is indeed beautiful)

[Treize]

Well and it is not like Greece has never been dickish to minorities but I can't imagine these people having to "whisper" lol. Anyway, how did the Macedonian (Slavic) people come into existance?

[Stavros_Kalmpou]

well, wikipedia says that:

recent anthropological and archaeological perspectives have viewed the appearance of Slavs in the Balkans in general, as part of a broad and complex process of transformation of the cultural, political and ethno-linguistic Balkan landscape after the collapse of Roman authority

[Edelfred]

the jealosy to others historical heritage brought those guys so low they adopted communist term from 1949 ,invented by commies to have reason to invade parts of Greece .
They are bunch of Volga Ugric or Turkic khans who together with some Slavic vassal infantry invaded Byzantium after being beaten by the Franks in middle Europe .

[bekiristein]

I know it is a sensitive issue.

I couldn't give a damn if these people claim to be Martians or whatever. I just want to know their true, non propaganda BS, origins.

Are they just natives of the region who got assimilated into Bulgarian culture when the Bulgarians invaded the region and mixed with the natives?

But what makes them different from Bulgarians? They standardised a certain west-bulgarian dialect as "Macedonian". I mean it is a young state in search of an identity of its own and all that... Reminds me of Flemish people desperately pretending to be a nation as opposed to Dutch, going as far as claiming they have their own language (some claim this lol).

Not so sensitive . And they are natives as much as i am, and they exist and if they want to be a nation they can be. The hole issue between Greece and them is a political one not a historical one at least from my point of view.
I was trying to post a link with the total votes the "ουρανιο τόξο "party took in the last elections in which participated in 2009 but for some strange reason i think it doesnt work. Hope it works now
http://ekloges-prev.singularlogic.eu...x.html?lang=en
if it is not fuctional the highest percentage they took was 3,69 in the area of Florina. And i apologize for my english.
Good luck to your thread

[Stavros_Kalmpou]

and even then, Byzantium reclaimed what they lost. +rep to you for the historical heritage part

[Treize]

Not so sensitive . And they are natives as much as i am, and they exist and if they want to be a nation they can be. The hole issue between Greece and them is a political one not a historical one at least from my point of view.

This thread is not about the naming dispute.

I was trying to post a link with the total votes the "ουρανιο τόξο "party took in the last elections in which participated in 2009 but for some strange reason i think it doesnt work. Hope it works now
http://ekloges-prev.singularlogic.eu...x.html?lang=en
if it is not fuctional the highest percentage they took was 3,69 in the area of Florina. And i apologize for my english.
Good luck to your thread

Well I heard about this so-called "Rainbow Party".

and even then, Byzantium reclaimed what they lost. +rep to you for the historical heritage part

Well the Byzantine Empire was a Christian Empire, not Greater-Greece or whatever. So they ruled over many Bulgarians at some point. So that there are Slavs in northern-greece/macedonia is not very wierd. But how are the Macedonians NOT a Bulgarian subgroup?

[neoptolemos]

Well and it is not like Greece has never been dickish to minorities but I can't imagine these people having to "whisper" lol.

I ve spent some time in Florina and I remember hearing all around the Slavic dialect some people were speaking, far from whispering I can assure you . The speakers of the Slavic dialect who identify as Macedonian Greeks refer to it as "local tongue". For the time I spent there I hadn't come across with a speaker of the dialect who identifies as a Macedonian slav but I was informed by the locals for a minority of people who identify as such (mostly in some Florina and Edessa villages IIRC). Apart from that there is also a political party who represents the people who identify as Macedonian Slavs.

But how are the Macedonians NOT a Bulgarian subgroup?

They could have been a Bulgarian subgroup if the course of events in the greater region favoured that. I reckon that the Slavic speaking populations of the area underwent a complex process of ethnogenesis in which Serbia, Bulgaria,Greece and independentists all contributed to the existing phenomenon. It was however the aftermath of WWII that pretty much enhanced the process of SlavMacedonian ethnogenesis.

[Sir Adrian]

FYROM Macedonians are for the msot part slavicised Macedo-Romanians and northern Greeks, who in turn were latinized and greekicised Macedonians, plus a hint of albanians. At least that's how I see things.

These people speak a language they call Macedonian which infact is a Bulgarian dialect. I mean one would assume they are part of the Bulgarians who invaded the region at the end of the early middle ages. Or atleast they are natives who got assimilated by these Bulgarians (more likely). Also they pretend in Greece there are many Macedonians who secretly speak Macedonian (i.e. Bulgarian) because they suffer from discrimination. Is there any truth in that?

To be fair Greece does have a track record of not recognizing ethnic minorities or treating them as Greeks (forcing greek language upon them). Roughly the same thing is happening to Aromanians and Meglenoromanians in Greece, so that belief is at least plausible.

[Hobbes]

Also they pretend in Greece there are many Macedonians who secretly speak Macedonian (i.e. Bulgarian) because they suffer from discrimination. Is there any truth in that?

This is true. My girlfriend is from Edessa (a city near the Greek-Macedonian border) and her family often talks about "Bulgarian villages" and people who speak Bulgarian living in the area.

[Stavroforos]

Whatever they identify as is what they are.

[Edelfred]

don't beleive in Slavicization of Vardar ,they were and are Slavic .

Slavic were farmers . rather poor too , farmers are not known for adopting some foes . Adopting enemy peasants is a prerogative of warriors ,like Cumanes in Vlachia or Franks in Romano-Gallia while farmers are greedy, intolerant etc
If farmers occupy land they take it all, too much land they will give that surpluses to sons . Like Offa has thrown all Celts from England in the 8 century AD .
Vardarians are Slavs spoke Bulgarian to 1913 .
The only Slavicization known were of few Ugric tribes in now Russia but Viking originated lords of Kievan Rus had trade contacts with other ethnicities then Slavic, including Ugric and Turkic Cumanes-Polovtsi so they negotiated that .

[AnthoniusII]

don't beleive in Slavicization of Vardar

Slavic were farmers , farmers are not known for adopting some foes . Adopting enemy peasants is a prerogative of warriors ,like Cumanes in Vlachia or Franks in Romano-Gallia while farmers are greedy, intolerant etc
If farmers occupy land they take it all, too much land they will give that surpluses to sons . Like Offa has thrown all Celts from England in the 8th AD .
Vardarians are Slavs spoke Bulgarian to 1913 .

Strange ..I thought Vardariotae were Magyar captives settled in Andrianople (know also as "Turks" by middle ages Romans)...
Read Alfread Rabaud's "Studies over Byzantine Empire" and you will find out WHEN Bulgarians first "claimed" the Macedonian legacy as "owners" and qonquerors of the "Lands Of Alexander the Great".

Also read 10th and 11th century Islamic manuscripts of who were "Macedonians" and what kind of race was Alexander belonged to...

Reading is harmless you know....

Bulgarians are NOT entirely slavic people ...
The ONLY fully slavic races came in to balkans i 6th century AD were the following:
Antes and Sclavenoi devided to :
a) Serbs
b)Chrovates (later known as Croats)
c) Dalmatians
Bulgarian homeland in Volga and Don rivers had a huge number of :
Slavic tribes such :
a) Smolens
b) Severins
c) Dregovitci
Steppe people
Iranian tribes
So Bulgarians (when they migraded in Balkans were a mix of all those people).

How people that came from Volga river in late 6th and early 7th century AD (AFTER CRIST'S BIRTH) can be descentens of Alexander the Great???

[Treize]

Strange ..I thought Vardariotae were Magyar captives settled in Andrianople (know also as "Turks" by middle ages Romans)...
Read Alfread Rabaud's "Studies over Byzantine Empire" and you will find out WHEN Bulgarians first "claimed" the Macedonian legacy as "owners" and qonquerors of the "Lands Of Alexander the Great".

Also read 10th and 11th century Islamic manuscripts of who were "Macedonians" and what kind of race was Alexander belonged to...

Reading is harmless you know....

Bulgarians are NOT entirely slavic people ...
The ONLY fully slavic races came in to balkans i 6th century AD were the following:
Antes and Sclavenoi devided to :
a) Serbs
b)Chrovates (later known as Croats)
c) Dalmatians
Bulgarian homeland in Volga and Don rivers had a huge number of :
Slavic tribes such :
a) Smolens
b) Severins
c) Dregovitci
Steppe people
Iranian tribes
So Bulgarians (when they migraded in Balkans were a mix of all those people).

How people that came from Volga river in late 6th and early 7th century AD (AFTER CRIST'S BIRTH) can be descentens of Alexander the Great???

How great was this immigration? Didn't they mix with the people who lived south of the Danube river? Who lived there anyway? I cannot believe they were all Greeks.

[Edelfred]

To Antoniusl , I have already mentioned that Bulgarians were not completely Slavic , reading the thread is harmless you know...just before you post.
Your post is also kind of ignorant you mention some tribes...but alas Croats had 3 tribes called by color red Croats white and blue one too

[AnthoniusII]

How great was this immigration? Didn't they mix with the people who lived south of the Danube river? Who lived there anyway? I cannot believe they were all Greeks.

Depends of what you "call" Greeks.
In Anthropology recent discoveries proved that the primary Pellasgian tribal league created the original Hellenic tribal branch and The Thracian one (north east to north west balkans).
In the 7th century BC in the central and north balkans there existed over 200 Greek collonies in a Thracian "sea" with their own curency each one of them.
Later north balkans recieved the first migration of Celtic tribes. They were the ones that sworn to Alexander the Great that as long he would be allive they would never invade "Helenic" lands!!!
This was Alexander's last campaign before he landed to Asia Minor.
So durring the Roman qonquest people that lived in northern balkans were a mix of Thracian+Celtic+Greek origin.
Under the Roman rule the hellenic pedia and language dominated the local ones in that extend that those people lived there so far were Hellenised!!!!!!!!!
Now before Slavs new invasions occured by Huns and Germanic tribes.
By the time Slavs and a bit later Bulgarians arrived they fould a population that was a mix of what we already describe above!
But...by that time all those people -greeks or no greeks were hellenised .
South balkans were dominated by Greeks by 100% though!
That is why Thessalonike (the city Kassandros build) became in early 200's AD capital of Pannelinion (the total Greek cities commoweatlh inside the Roman Empire)!!!!!!!!!!
That was an obvius choice because Roman knew that Macedonians of their time were PART of the Greek Tribes (nations) and not some foreigners.
Romans were to many things but they were NEVER FOOLS!

[Treize]

Depends of what you "call" Greeks.
In Anthropology recent discoveries proved that the primary Pellasgian tribal league created the original Hellenic tribal branch and The Thracian one (north east to north west balkans).
In the 7th century BC in the central and north balkans there existed over 200 Greek collonies in a Thracian "sea" with their own curency each one of them.
Later north balkans recieved the first migration of Celtic tribes. They were the ones that sworn to Alexander the Great that as long he would be allive they would never invade "Helenic" lands!!!
This was Alexander's last campaign before he landed to Asia Minor.
So durring the Roman qonquest people that lived in northern balkans were a mix of Thracian+Celtic+Greek origin.
Under the Roman rule the hellenic pedia and language dominated the local ones in that extend that those people lived there so far were Hellenised!!!!!!!!!
Now before Slavs new invasions occured by Huns and Germanic tribes.
By the time Slavs and a bit later Bulgarians arrived they fould a population that was a mix of what we already describe above!
But...by that time all those people -greeks or no greeks were hellenised .
South balkans were dominated by Greeks by 100% though!
That is why Thessalonike (the city Kassandros build) became in early 200's AD capital of Pannelinion (the total Greek cities commoweatlh inside the Roman Empire)!!!!!!!!!!
That was an obvius choice because Roman knew that Macedonians of their time were PART of the Greek Tribes (nations) and not some foreigners.
Romans were to many things but they were NEVER FOOLS!

Yes but what language did the peoples south of thr Danube speak before the Bulgarian invasion?

Aren't modern day Macedonians a group of people who are of mixed background and speaking a western-bulgarian dialect? In what way are the "a nation" other than self-identification?