Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

[Exarch]

EDIT: China has publicly denounced the western media coverage on the crash as being biased and inaccurate.

bloody oath, no proof and yet every single western media outlet i see is already accusing the rebels without proof, mind you, of having shot down the airplane.

Not.A.Single.Shred.Of.Evi-Dence.

[Condottiere 40K]

Putin may be wavering between damage control or double or nothing.

[pajomife]

Putin may be wavering between damage control or double or nothing.

He play poker?

[Geronimo2006]

Terrorist mass grave found by Ukraine in Slavyansk.

In the liberated from terrorists town Slovyansk in the Donetsk region was found a mass grave of local civilians, who were killed by pro-Russian and Russian militants.

“I have met with the team of the Criminal Investigation of the Interior Ministry of Ukraine in Slovyansk. They found a burial place of local residents of Slovyansk, who were tortured to death by terrorists. There are dozens of them. They were tortured, cut, burnt alive. There are witnesses of all of this,” – said an aid of the President Yuriy Lutsenko on air on ТСН.

[Farnan]

China is not going to support Russian Actions more than symbolically for two reasons:

1) China is trying to improve relations with the US more or less behind the scenes (they let the US Chief of Naval Operations aboard their Aircraft Carrier to tour it, and just took part in RIMPAC for the first time).

2) China is careful to avoid any sort of precedence due to separatists in their own country. They don't want another country, say India, supporting Tibetan Independence like Russia is doing with Eastern Ukraine.

[Condottiere 40K]

Another theory, which I rather doubt, is that the separatists were supposed to shoot down a Russian airliner, so that the troops the Russians had massed on the border had somewhere to go.

[Kindjal83]

Russia massing troops on border with Ukraine, deploys mines in Sea of Azov


These criminals in the Kremlin have no shame whatsoever.

Looks more like a cornered animal... Hissing and trying to look scary, but in truth scared because it is backed into a corner. Massing troops and mining seas... Mr Putin as lost it... If it were Dubya and Blair, instead of Obama and Cameron, and our noble Chancelerina was still in her Reichtangle days, and this would get really ugly, really fast... Let's hope Medvedev can bring Czar Vladimir the First, back to reality.

[Condottiere 40K]

You can't go to war with a nuclear power, you can only contain and constrain them.

[Farnan]

You can't go to war with a nuclear power, you can only contain and constrain them.

Why not?

Nukes are only a regime survival weapon, as long as we are not invading Russia proper to a degree that the regime's survival is at stake they won't use the weapons.

[Derpy Hooves]

Terrorist mass grave found by Ukraine in Slavyansk.

Welp HH, here is your source that you've been demanding that the seppys are terrorists.

[Kindjal83]

You can't go to war with a nuclear power, you can only contain and constrain them.

In not advocating for a war... Far from it, but this mindless escalation that Putin started since the invasion of Crimeia is mindblowing... We all knew that giving weapons and training to the separatists wound give bad results and here we are.

But Putin and his separatist goons mut be brought to justice, and there is no damn rethoric that can denie that.

And unfortunatly, the only way fot that to happen looks like it must be the threat of military intervention...

Besides, he wouldn't be mad enought for using nukes, would he?

It is Putin, after all

[pajomife]

A European citizen talking in a militar intervention,...something is wrong here...

[Dromikaites]

A European citizen talking in a militar intervention,...something is wrong here...

Huh?!

Can you point Mali on a map?

Libya?

The Falklands?

[Seether]

Welp HH, here is your source that you've been demanding that the seppys are terrorists.

Terrorist mass grave found by Ukraine in Slavyansk.

Let me guess... His response to this will be either: "Source it was the rebels?" or "Biased source."

[Biggles]

Let me guess... His response to this will be either: "Source it was the rebels?" or "Biased source."

Why not both? :p

while I personally wouldn't refer to them as "terrorists" (that word seem overused these days) I don't doubt that the rebellious Donetsk region has seen a fair number of "incidents" that will be hard to ignore or explain by the pro-Donetsk crowd.

[Geronimo2006]

I think the most damning indication implicating the separatists is their behaviour at the crash site.

[Pielstick]

Why take my word for it when Google is your friend?

Google up HALO/HAHO (those stand for "High Altitude Low Opening" and "High Altitude High Opening" respectively) and see what you get.

You may discover to your astonishment that I already knew what HALO and HAHO mean. You may also be astonished to discover they do not necessarily apply to an airliner.

As for the fact that opening the cargo bay of an airliner at that altitude is tricky and might result in the airplane being forced to make an emergency landing afterwards, that is indeed a risk. But there were plenty of airports nearby for a plane to safely land after delivering its commandos.

Why would you put them in the cargo hold of an airliner?

So which of the two was at work here:

1) You were unwilling to look things up for yourself. That would be bad if in the age of Internet that is a permanent attitude to things unfamiliar to you;

2) You imagined I talk about things I have no idea about. In such case you must be really new here.

Getting a little bit defensive are we? I asked a simple question, which I note you haven't answered.

[Derpy Hooves]

Note: I am with the camp that believes it was an accident, regardless of which party took it down (although it is more likely that the airliner was taken down by the seppys)

[Pavlik the Rus]

Geronimo2006, question without any offence.
You constantly posting links to the articles, who based on information from ukrainean side or .ua directly. Meantime you belive that RF spreading masive lie and propaganda.
Last links are perfect example. Kyiv post and inforesist. Ukrainean sources. You belive they don't lie to you?
For example they declared (especially Dmitry Tymchuk, leader of inforesist site, making such claims allmost each day) that they've captured KORD machine gun. New weapon of RF army. Same stories with T-90, sniper rifle "Vykhlop", AA shpoulder system "Verba" and so on and so forth.
If you belive so, then why ukrainean goverment will not expose this as proofs? Such proofs will hit Putin's positions on world arena extreemly hard, because it is against RF's gov position.
How do you think?

[Geronimo2006]

Note: I am with the camp that believes it was an accident, regardless of which party took it down (although it is more likely that the airliner was taken down by the seppys)

There is video online of a rocket trail.

Pavlik of course these are claims by the Ukrainian side but Putin has told so many lies in this conflict it is hard for me to believe anything he says. I have also been followiing his policies since 1999 and took offence at his policies in Chechnya which really turned me again him early on. So yes I am biased against Putin. It's not an anti-Russian thing. It's an anti-Putin but also anti imperialist thing. I was also offended by the poisoning of Viktor Yuschenko which disfigured his face. I'm also annoyed at the anti gay law. Also I am Irish and the British never tried to dictate our foreign policy. In WW2 we were pressured to join the Allies but stayed neutral and despite grumbling, Britain accepted that. Why can't Russia let Ukraine go its own way?

I agree with you they should show the images of captured weapons.