Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

[Braindead Colonel]

And let me remind you of the WMDs of Iraq. It turned out there were none in 2003. Nevertheless Saddam ended up hanged. So if Secretary Kerry says it was Russia, Russia gets hanged. This is why it matters the official version. Happy now?

If might is right and truth be damned, then WTF are you doing in this thread?

If something is so only because the powers that be declare it, why bother with the mind's of the plebeians?

[Dromikaites]

Listen Drom, the investigations have not finished yet. All I see is SBU releasing tapes so far and the media reaching conclusions before a lot of facts are known. We aren't past it because you say we are past it.

It is Secretary Kerry announcing the tapes and tweets are genuine, not the media.

So all you could argue is that maybe those tapes are as genuine as Saddam's 2003 WMDs.

But in terms of what the West would do to Russia, that is irrelevant. What matters is what the West is willing to do to Russia given Secretary Kerry has stated both on CNN and On Fox News the tapes and the tweets are genuine.

If might is right and truth be damned, then WTF are you doing in this thread?

Explaining to the Russians that when they cheered for the annexation of Crimea and for the terrorists in Easter Ukraine they did so without properly evaluating who is the truly mighty party?

They thought Russia's might makes it right in Crimea and "Novorussia".

I am showing them Russia isn't that mighty.

If something is so only because the powers that be declare it, why bother with the mind's of the plebeians?

Because the "plebeians" sometimes fall in love with shirtless leaders, do idiotic things and end up paying for that?

Or because even "plebeians" who do not fall in love with the shirtless leaders but have a very confused notion of what patriotism means would end up paying for what the shirtless leaders does?

Or because some citizens of democratic countries are hating their democracies with passion and as such are willing to support shirtless leaders, not realizing their own leaders are about to rip a new one to their shirtless idol?

Helping all those people see things like they are instead of like they would like them to be is worth spending time on this thread.

[YuriVII]

It is Secretary Kerry announcing the tapes and tweets are genuine, not the media.

So all you could argue is that maybe those tapes are as genuine as Saddam's 2003 WMDs.

But in terms of what the West would do to Russia, that is irrelevant. What matters is what the West is willing to do to Russia given Secretary Kerry has stated both on CNN and On Fox News the tapes and the tweets are genuine.

Oh yeah, I remember reading that post of yours when I was lurking. Kerry, I'll wait till more concrete actions than some statement by Kerry. How many times has he been overruled by his masters? It's Kerry afterall. As a Romanian are you familiar with his reputation in the USA by any chance? Anyways its about time you posted your objectives on this thread. We have way different objectives. Your objective is to prove that Putin is weak and basically continue an internet e-peen contest. I could give a . I just want to figure out what happened and know what is information, misinformation, and lies.

[Stívarðr Reynitré]

We all need to remember that the finger pointing and hand-wringing pales in comparison when we consider what has actually happened here.

I want Russia nailing to the wall; they are a law unto themselves in that region - but we must reflect on just what has occurred here.

Soft toys, holiday souvenirs and personal effects lie strewn across a 4km trail of sorrow because some :wub: decided that he would send the world a message. They used that plane as a pawn, no matter how it happened and whom pushed the button.

They condemned human beings to die to achieve a goal.

[YuriVII]

Who was using the plane as the pawn? Who decided to "send the world a message"? And how will Russia be nailed to the wall?

[Stívarðr Reynitré]

Who was using the plane as the pawn? Who decided to "send the world a message"? And how will Russia be nailed to the wall?

These are all questions I am asking, myself.

I'd venture that pro-Russian separatists, with the knowledge of Moscow (complicit or otherwise) shot down that plane and intended on making it look like a Ukrainian mistake, thus turning the international community's opinion firmly against Kiev - a "message to the world."

[Condottiere 40K]

1. Russian billionaires apparently are started to get alarmed at increasing sanctions, but can't voice their concerns publicly because of the backlash.

2, Most people tend to tie their identity to their nationality, and would rather not see their country fall apart as it would strike at a vital part of that identity, even if they dislike their current regime. If they are convinced or perceive expansionism as strengthening it and their place in the world by proxy, they approve of such policies.

[Dromikaites]

Oh yeah, I remember reading that post of yours when I was lurking. Kerry, I'll wait till more concrete actions than some statement by Kerry. How many times has he been overruled by his masters? It's Kerry afterall. As a Romanian are you familiar with his reputation in the USA by any chance?

As a Romanian I am not impressed with Kerry's boss, Obama.

Neither seems to be the Polish government.

That is why I wrote: "What matters is what the West is willing to do to Russia given Secretary Kerry has stated both on CNN and on Fox News the tapes and the tweets are genuine."

It may turn out the Western leaders decide to drag their feet a bit longer, till the public opinion becomes so angry that the consequences of being tough on Russia don't matter to their voters anymore.

Or it might turn out that the Western leaders think the public opinion is angry enough, so they can proceed with kicking Russia really hard, in spite of what might mean on short term for the material well being of their voters.

In my opinion the West is out to get Russia (more exactly, out to get direct access to Russia's natural resources). The only reason why the West is dragging its feet is because getting direct access to Russia's natural resources implies some costs to the Western voters. So those Western voters need to hate Russia really bad before the Western leaders go for the jugular.

Anyways its about time you posted your objectives on this thread. We have way different objectives. Your objective is to prove that Putin is weak and basically continue an internet e-peen contest. I could give a . I just want to figure out what happened and know what is information, misinformation, and lies.

Nope.

Everybody who knows enough about Putin and Russia knows he and the country are weak for the task of taking the West on. They are strong when compared to Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, etc. but weak if they get on a collision course with the West.

My objective is to show to those who cheer for Putin that they are grossly miscalculating what is going on.

This is why I bother to explain what a "military base" actually means, what kind of weapons can be captured if a border guard post is overrun, why it did make military sense to murder all those innocent people on that Malaysian plane even though it was morally an abomination, etc.

If I just wanted to show Putin is weak I wouldn't have bothered explaining how the map should be read, why Sloviansk and Horlivka mattered more than Donetsk, why the Ukrainians prioritized Mariupol and the airports in Kramatorsk, Donetsk and Lugansk over everything else, etc.

Neither of us is a decision-maker.

So we can treat this thread in many ways, none of which would have any practical consequence on the ground.

I chose to treat it as an opportunity to share with the other readers the things I know and the way I interpret what is made available through the media, in order to become more clear why things will happen one way and not another.

Look at the pro-Russian side on this thread and on the related ones. Those who aren't simply Kremlin's mouthpieces imagine that Russia can take the West on, imagine that the terrorists could get tanks, Buk systems and GRAD batteries from "captured Ukrainian military bases", that a "captured" Buk can be used just by anybody, etc.

They imagined that because they probably never served in the army and thus had no idea what a "military base" holding tanks, GRAD batteries, Buk systems is, how "easy" is to capture one, etc.

Hopefully after reading my posts they gained some knowledge which they might want to use next time they bump into a piece of Kremlin propaganda.

[Exarch]

i call BS, none of the rebels even know how to use one of those AA missiles, or even had one in their arsenal
i'll bet they were shot down by an ukrainian sukhoi

[Dromikaites]

i call BS, none of the rebels even know how to use one of those AA missiles, or even had one in their arsenal
i'll bet they were shot down by an ukrainian sukhoi

I rest my case

[LestaT]

Well ok we are operating on two different philosophical planes then. Yes I suppose war is murder on a larger scale but a soldier firing on another soldier does not have the same seriousness as a soldier firing on a plane of civilians. If a soldier fires on a plane that is on a mission to kill him and his compatriots....I think you understand where I am going with this.

Even if we consider it part of an act of war, is the plane heading towards the shooter ? Or away from it ? Anyone who can still think this an accident, is just as cold blooded as those murderers themselves.

[Condottiere 40K]

I bet nineteen Arabs can't figure out how to fly airliners, and point them in the direction they want them to go.

[pajomife]

That's funny but Putin presidential plane used the same rote in the same day.
But I think we should trust in Kerry word,the US never lie,and he said that was Russian fault.No matter they don't show any proof.

[LestaT]

That's funny but Putin presidential plane used the same rote in the same day.

I didn't know that Ukraine is in South America.

[Holger Danske]

i call BS, none of the rebels even know how to use one of those AA missiles, or even had one in their arsenal
i'll bet they were shot down by an ukrainian sukhoi

And here starts the lunacy. Please do tell us more about this truth.

More like when the US shot down an Iranian passenger airline in the 1980s. They thought it was a military aircraft and not a civilian one.

IA 655 was misidentified due to something with it's IFF that I can't exactly remember, but the Americans mistook it for a military signal - again not sure how. (and this pales in comparison with the Soviet shotdown of KAL 007 in terms of stupidity and incompetence) So unless evidence emerges that MA 17 had a similar glitch with its' IFF, then there is no reason to suspect that whomever operated that AA system didn't know exactly what he was firing at.

[Biggles]

I am perfectly willing to accept that the possible firing on a civilian airliner was a mistake, but that doesn't diminish the responsibility of the shooter.

[karo]

That's funny but Putin presidential plane used the same rote in the same day.
But I think we should trust in Kerry word,the US never lie,and he said that was Russian fault.No matter they don't show any proof.

How would it help Ukraine to shoot down Putins plane and unleash a total war? In this scenario no one would even support them and they would be destroyed by the full might of the Russian military. Can you tell me how this makes sense for Ukraine.

[Dromikaites]

I bet nineteen Arabs can't figure out how to fly airliners, and point them in the direction they want them to go.

19 Arabs freshly dismounted from their camels quite likely can't.

19 Arabs who took just enough flying lessons in the US before boarding those planes can. And they have gladly and eagerly shown what just a few hours of proper training could do.

Those "Cossacks from Chernukhino" who shot the plane down have got their own crash course in operating a Buk launcher. So they too were eager to prove they can do more than just whip the "Pussy Riot" now and then.

[Condottiere 40K]

Putin states that the incident should bring all parties together, and warns not to politicize the tragedy.

[Dromikaites]

Putin states that the incident should bring all parties together, and warns not to politicize the tragedy.

The largest grin available via emoticons is this