Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

[Thorn777]

Prefering Putin now because "our elites" might sell out our codes of law, our sovereignty, our liberties, our real economic wellbeing, and will take us to any kind of war necessary in the future.

Great logic right there...

And that's an assumption based on Putin's kleptocracy somehow being better than our own kleptocracy to start from although the former lacks the ability to sell out codes of law, sovereignty, liberties, real economic wellbeing because they don't have half of it and will take Russia to any kind of war necessary in the future.

Could you expand on your attempt of argument because I dont see one. Sorry.

[Costin_Razvan]

Modernization doesn't mean when the majority of your military are drunkards.

The program also includes unit reform, better training, larger numbers of professional soldiers being drafted.

Read the accounts of systematic failures within some spearhead units, due to drunkenness and general asshattery, in their previous annexation in Georgia.

The problem in Georgia came down to communication screw ups. When a general has to use a satellite phone to call his own men then you know the Russian army is terrible.

Russia has since then focused on significantly improving their communications. As for those drunk soldiers, they managed to defeat a NATO/Israeli trained and equipped army. Granted most of the actual fighting was done by the VDV whereas the rest of the Russian forces did badly. Still they did with roughly the same number of soldiers on both sides.

When it comes to overall competency the Russian military could take on every single NATO power in the east and win with ease in days, with the exception of Poland, given their focus on being able to survive a military invasion by Russia, and Romania, due to our mountainous terrain.

[Vanoi]

Because I'm tired of answering same question again, and again. I've posted a link to the list of T-72 modifications countless times and debunked the claim about Kontakt armor by providing sources that it is used by Ukrainians as well.

And time and time again, i have pointed out that whenever the T-72 has Kontakt is irrelevant. Ukraine has all itss T-72s on storage and the rebels are reported to have captured a T-72B3 tank even though the Ukrinaians have never owned that variant. Its very obvious the sepertaists are getting Russina help.

But its good you finally admit Russia supports the seperatists in Ukraine.

[Mangalore]

Could you expand on your attempt of argument because I dont see one. Sorry.

Well, just because you don't see one...

Anyway, you prefer Putin because our idiot politicians might in the future sell something out that doesn't even exist under Putin's current establishment (maybe back in 2005 there was a chance) in the first place. I just commented on this being ingenious.

[Heathen Hammer]

And time and time again, i have pointed out that whenever the T-72 has Kontakt is irrelevant. Ukraine has all itss T-72s on storage and the rebels are reported to have captured a T-72B3 tank even though the Ukrinaians have never owned that variant.

Source?

Its very obvious the sepertaists are getting Russina help.

But its good you finally admit Russia supports the seperatists in Ukraine.

There is no evidence for or against it, I just recognise the possibility. In fact, I really hope Russia supports the rebels. The sooner Ukrainian occupation of Novorossiya ends, the better it is for all sides.

[Vanoi]

Source?

On what? Ukrianians having all their T-72s in storage or the sepertaists claming to destroy a T-72B3 tank?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9bf_1410230913

This is the video in which sepertaists claim to destroy a Ukranian T-72B3 tank. But Ukraine does not own T-72B3 tanks.

This isn't the only source showing T-72B3s in Ukraine.

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t72b3.htm

In 2014 the T-72B3 tanks saw combat during a military conflict in Ukraine. At least a couple of these tanks were captured by Ukrainian armed forces and pressed into service against the Russians.

The T-72B3 is a Russian tank that only came into servcie since October of 2013. So whta are Russian tanks doing in Ukraine?

[Heathen Hammer]

On what? Ukrianians having all their T-72s in storage

Yes.
In b4 Ukrainian military claims that. Because they also claimed Russia nuked them.

The T-72B3 is a Russian tank that only came into servcie since October of 2013. So whta are Russian tanks doing in Ukraine?

What's the evidence that it was doing anything there?

[Vanoi]

Yes.
In b4 Ukrainian military claims that. Because they also claimed Russia nuked them.

Is there any evdidence of any active Ukrianain T-72s fighting in Ukraine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Ground_Forces

All Ukrinaian T-72s were produced in Russia and thus Ukriane has no spare parts to maintain them so they are in storage. Thats why they sold about 800 of them since 1992.

What's the evidence that it was doing anything there?

What is a brand-new Russian tank doing in Ukraine? The very fact it is in Ukraine is a problem. The only people that own that tank are the Russina miltary.Why is the Russian military sending its brand-new tanks into Ukraine?

[Heathen Hammer]

Is there any evdidence of any active Ukrianain T-72s fighting in Ukraine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Ground_Forces

All Ukrinaian T-72s were produced in Russia and thus Ukriane has no spare parts to maintain them so they are in storage. Thats why they sold about 800 of them since 1992.

So? Ukraine has lost over a hundred of tanks, so its rather logical for them to start using T-72s.

What is a brand-new Russian tank doing in Ukraine? The very fact it is in Ukraine is a problem. The only people that own that tank are the Russina miltary.Why is the Russian military sending its brand-new tanks into Ukraine?

Again, what's the evidence that Russian tank is in Ukraine? So far you guys only provided speculations and assumptions based on unfounded claims.

[Vanoi]

So? Ukraine has lost over a hundred of tanks, so its rather logical for them to start using T-72s.

Rather logical? Ukraine has 1780 T-64s. They lost one hundred. Oh damn, now they only have 1680 T-64 tanks.

Again, what's the evidence that Russian tank is in Ukraine? So far you guys only provided speculations and assumptions based on unfounded claims.

Sepertaists claim to blow one up in Ukraine and have video of it. I posted it for you. ukraine claimas to have captured a few.

And of course there is Adar's video.

http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/4270

T-72B3s have Kontak-5 armor. But of coruse Ukraine owns the same armor as well. Problem is that the only Ukranian T-72s that ever had Kontak-5 armor were the T-72AG and the T-72AMG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-72_op...s_and_variants

As you can see, T-72Ms in Ukrinaina service never carried kontak-5 armor. So that can't be a T-72M the rebels captured. Why are thye lying about the tank's real variant?

[Costin_Razvan]

I'd like to point out that Ukraine, which is capable of building T-84 tanks so forget about the ridiculous notion they can't maintain their T-72s, choose not to continue using their T-72s and instead focused on using T-64s and upgrading them until the recent war.

Given that T-64s are more expensive to use they may have chosen to switch to using some of their stored T-72s, some of which they had upgraded. Ukraine did after all resupply Georgia with dozens of T-72s following the war with Russia.

As for Ukraine losing 100 T-64s, that's pretty significant but I'd like to see where the figure comes from. Ukraine may have had 1.800 T-64s but only 800 of them were worth using, as in upgraded models and they lost 100 of those supposedly.

[ShockBlast]

Germany: stagnation, risking recession.
France: panic.
Italy: recession.
The EU is surely doing a good job. Let's kill the bull, Germany, that's surely going to hit the bear.
Retarded.


Russia had been running budget supruses before this, they saved money. Europe quite the opposite.
And Russian people had a taste of what American domination feels in the 90s, no wonders Putin's support has skyrocketed.

Germany`s economy has a minuscule link to the RF, it`s unimportant what happens with the EU - RF trade for the grand picture.

Of course the German economy will go up and down, they are human after all, trying to picture a mild German recession as some kind of doom of the German, and by extension, EU economy denotes lack of understanding.

[Principe Alessandro]

I'd like to point out that Ukraine, which is capable of building T-84 tanks so forget about the ridiculous notion they can't maintain their T-72s, choose not to continue using their T-72s and instead focused on using T-64s and upgrading them until the recent war.

Given that T-64s are more expensive to use they may have chosen to switch to using some of their stored T-72s, some of which they had upgraded. Ukraine did after all resupply Georgia with dozens of T-72s following the war with Russia.

As for Ukraine losing 100 T-64s, that's pretty significant but I'd like to see where the figure comes from. Ukraine may have had 1.800 T-64s but only 800 of them were worth using, as in upgraded models and they lost 100 of those supposedly.

The T-64 is better armored than the T-72, in a tank vs tank fight is simply superior but it isn't suited for urban warfare.

[Basil II the B.S]

Germany`s economy has a minuscule link to the RF,

I stopped reading there. Not worthy the discussion.

[Nikitn]

Modernization doesn't mean when the majority of your military are drunkards. Means even less when the majority of your officer/NCO corps are the same.

Russia can spend all the money they want on shiny new toys but when your military has inherited some of the troubling demographics of Russian society as a whole - good luck.

There is a reason, beyond deniability, that Russia uses mercenaries in their spearhead units. Read the accounts of systematic failures within some spearhead units, due to drunkenness and general asshattery, in their previous annexation in Georgia.



This is about the extent that Russian tit-for-tat towards the US can achieve - and it's hilarious:

haha rage some more If you like you can live in your tin-foil hat conspiracy world, who cares, but the real question is then:

Watcha gonna do when we come for you?

The program also includes unit reform, better training, larger numbers of professional soldiers being drafted.



The problem in Georgia came down to communication screw ups. When a general has to use a satellite phone to call his own men then you know the Russian army is terrible.

Russia has since then focused on significantly improving their communications. As for those drunk soldiers, they managed to defeat a NATO/Israeli trained and equipped army. Granted most of the actual fighting was done by the VDV whereas the rest of the Russian forces did badly. Still they did with roughly the same number of soldiers on both sides.

When it comes to overall competency the Russian military could take on every single NATO power in the east and win with ease in days, with the exception of Poland, given their focus on being able to survive a military invasion by Russia, and Romania, due to our mountainous terrain.

Are you just another armchair general "analytic", or do you actually have any RL military experience? Because this speculation looks completely random and baseless 2 me.

[Holger Danske]

I stopped reading there. Not worthy the discussion.

Yeah, Russia isn't even on the top ten list of German exports. As for Russia's exports to Germany.. Yeah you guess it. Energy. So Russia is clearly as important for Germany as you make it.

[YuriVII]

Interview with a "foreign fighter"

[Costin_Razvan]

Are you just another armchair general "analytic", or do you actually have any RL military experience? Because this speculation looks completely random and baseless 2 me.

There was a report linked in this threat several dozen pages ago about the competency of the Russian army, specifically the VDV, it's what I'm basing my post upon.

Russia has been reforming it's army, not just buying new equipment but making changes to unit compositions, training, officers etc. Huge changes to make it a smaller more professional force. That info is on the wiki.

With regards to Russia defeating every NATO power in the east. There are NATO generals and heads of state going on record saying the Baltics could fall in hours ( yes hours ). Only Poland is in any way a serious military power in the region.

As for the Romanian army, which I am familiar with, it's quite frankly . But we do have a very strong terrain advantage.

[Dromikaites]

Interview with a "foreign fighter"

There are a lot of coal mines in the area under terrorist control.

However, once those mines get depleted, the soil would be very suitable for agriculture, thanks to so many idiots who would be buried there.

[Adar]

T-72B3s have Kontak-5 armor. But of coruse Ukraine owns the same armor as well. Problem is that the only Ukranian T-72s that ever had Kontak-5 armor were the T-72AG and the T-72AMG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-72_op...s_and_variants

As you can see, T-72Ms in Ukrinaina service never carried kontak-5 armor. So that can't be a T-72M the rebels captured. Why are thye lying about the tank's real variant?

This T-72AG could a different armour configuration than the T-72B3. The T-72B3 is easier to replace and probably got other characteristics while the Nozh (ie developed Kontakt-5) got a greater coverage of the turret but is more closely fitted and required a repositioning of IR-aperture.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Otherwise, great argumentation and I admire your willingness to hammer the point in.