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Thread: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

  1. #1
    Derpy Hooves's Avatar Bombs for Muffins
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    Default Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grobar View Post
    1. Yanukovich was forced to negotiate because of violent protesters and then tricked out of office by opposition who broke their agreement the very next day.
    2. Secession started by the people themselves in those regions.
    3. Foreign volunteers in Russian militia doesn't make people's claim for independence any less valid. Otherwise same can be said for Kiev's claim over this land because of all foreign mercenaries that fight for Kiev.
    4. Maybe some Ukrainians didn't vote because they knew they would still lose in referendum.
    1. He wasn't tricked, he voluntarily ran away without anyone knowing why.
    2. Not without Russian support
    3. Actually it kinda does



  2. #2

    Default Re: Ukraine and Crimea development thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ☩Lord Inquisitor Derpy Hooves☩ View Post
    1. He wasn't tricked, he voluntarily ran away without anyone knowing why.
    2. Not without Russian support
    3. Actually it kinda does
    1. But opposition did break agreements it made with him.
    2. It wasn't any different by its extent from Western support to Maidan. And Russian troops there did not intervene in political process, they were basically there to make sure that scenarios like the one with Odessa Massacre do not happen. Plus there was no evidence of Russian army's presence in Donbass and it ended up with at least hundreds of civilian casualties.
    3. Are you saying there are no foreigners fighting for Ukraine's side?
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; July 19, 2014 at 11:43 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Ukraine and Crimea development thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ☩Lord Inquisitor Derpy Hooves☩ View Post
    1. He wasn't tricked, he voluntarily ran away without anyone knowing why.
    2. Not without Russian support
    3. Actually it kinda does
    1. He ran because he was in danger from people he made agreement with. No point in staying there and being locked up or worse by people who broke the agreement anyway.
    2. And what is your point? No country in ex Yugoslavia gained independence without USA support. It seems like you only want West to decide who gets independence.
    3. How?

  4. #4
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Crimea development thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Same could be asked about Poroshenko's elections.
    Russia recognized his election as legitimate unlike the referendum. And multiple other countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    And whether countries that back Kiev recognized it or not is irrelevant. It took Russia almost two decades to recognize South Osetia, but it was de-facto independent since early 1990s.
    And? It snot just countries that are friendly to kiev. Not a single country in the world. Zero. None. No one recognizes the Donetsk People's Republic. It has no sovereignty it has no borders.

    I'd like to add that we had no independent way to confirm the referendum results since the separatists didn't allow any international observers. We have to take the word of the rebels, who are biased towards having the result sin their favor.
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    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Crimea development thread

    Ludicrous conspiracy theories in the Kremlin-controlled mass-media. However Rossiya 24 let slip the rebels do have BUKs but claimed they are in repair. Also the Russian Ministry of Defence in June claimed they had them. So they are changing their story and in a court of law, that is a classic sign of guilt.

    At first, the rebels denied possessing the BUK missile launchers believed to have been used in the attack, despite the fact that the news agency of the Russian Ministry of Defense aired a report in June stating that a BUK had been taken by the separatists. Later on Friday, however, a reporter for Russian state-controlled channel Rossiya-24 reported that the militia does possess the launchers, but that they’re “all undergoing repair.” More recently, the rebel claims took a turn for the grotesque, with Donbass separatist commander Igor Strelkovtelling militant site Russian Spring that he believes the plane may have been filled with dead bodies before it crashed, saying workers who cleared the site told him the bodies were “stale – [like] people who had died several days ago.”
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Crimea development thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Russia recognized his election as legitimate unlike the referendum. And multiple other countries.


    And? It snot just countries that are friendly to kiev. Not a single country in the world. Zero. None. No one recognizes the Donetsk People's Republic. It has no sovereignty it has no borders.

    I'd like to add that we had no independent way to confirm the referendum results since the separatists didn't allow any international observers. We have to take the word of the rebels, who are biased towards having the result sin their favor.
    Nobody recognised Donetsk republic yet because they are afraid of getting on the bad side of USA. When USA loses it's unipolar grip on the world other countries will start freely expressing their political stances without fear of repercussion from USA.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Ukraine and Crimea development thread

    Observations of integrity hold little real value in this situation. Regardless of who is to blame for why Putin is in power or who is to blame for how Russia's leadership behaves, taking any opportunity to weaken Russia is a good course of action. It makes an authoritarian and homophobic leader weaker, and more importantly supports our global supremacy.

    Of course even if Russia's present leadership is worth fighting against in every available fashion, nobody should pretend to be completely in the moral and ethical high ground. But snipping most of Ukraine from Russia's sphere is an excellent strategic score regardless. The power of the United States will be not going anywhere any time soon.
    Last edited by Dragus; July 19, 2014 at 11:57 AM.

  8. #8
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Crimea development thread

    CNN: Donetsk separatists say black box flight recorders "missing". Translation: they have destroyed or are hiding them. Of course originally they said they had them and were giving them to Moscow. Then Lavrov said Russia wouldn't take them from them. So now they are all of a sudden "missing".
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Crimea development thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Geronimo2006 View Post
    CNN: Donetsk separatists say black box flight recorders "missing". Translation: they have destroyed or are hiding them. Of course originally they said they had them and were giving them to Moscow. Then Lavrov said Russia wouldn't take them from them. So now they are all of a sudden "missing".
    Why no sources from rebels speak of this?

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    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Crimea development thread

    CNN says this is what they are saying.

    There are parallels with the 1983 attrocity with the Soviets shot down a passenger airline and the tape showed they knew it was a passenger plane. It wasn't until 1993 they released the black box. The difference of course is that it isn't even their country this time.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Ukraine and Crimea development thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Geronimo2006 View Post
    CNN says this is what they are saying.
    But why aren't rebels saying what CNN says what they are saying?
    There are parallels with the 1983 attrocity with the Soviets shot down a passenger airline and the tape showed they knew it was a passenger plane. It wasn't until 1993 they released the black box. The difference of course is that it isn't even their country this time.
    Or the 2001 tragedy, when Ukrainian military shot down an Israeli avaliner with a missile system.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Ukraine and Crimea development thread

    For my part, I think that the rebels were the most likely to do it, and probably on accident. I heard that they issued warnings not to fly civilian aircraft over the warzone, likely because they were afraid of such a mistake. The mistake also indicates that it is unlikely to have been a trained Russian operator, as they are trained to distinguish military from civilian planes on radar. It certainly could have been a hastily trained rebel though, to him it would have been a radar blip the size of a Ukrainian military transport.

    I think the "conversation" aired by the SBU is fake though. It was published before anybody even knew if the plane was shot down or simply crashed, and the speakers were clearly identified.

  13. #13
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia with the EU/US trying to steal the limelight for good measure. Development thread. A tale of Diva's, romance and pseudo-warfare

    Ok guys,

    So here's your new thread, where you can discuss the actions of the players embroiled in the 'Ukrainian Issue'.

    Please all bear in mind the
    ToS when you post. Some points to remember too to keep you on the safe side of not disrupting the thread:

    1)Attack the post and not the poster. Ideally reply as if your talking to an audience (which you are- the viewer base at large, the person your debating with 9 times out of 10 will not fold. But the site audience who are reading your posts are the ones you want to convince- their judging you man! Literally.)

    2)Refrain from any insulting or personal remarks (You may see a trend developing here of where the issues lay in the last thread!)

    3) When positing a video- Spoiler it. Be aware that bandwidth and page loading times is a factor for some.

    4)If an image or video contains violence and/or gore. You MUST provide a warning for the image/video. We're advertised as a PG 13 site and all it takes is one parent to see their kid viewing something to see us all in trouble.

    5) The final one as i feel i'm boring you all for some reason... but Importantly. Please remember when posting an image or video to actually provide some content of your own. Otherwise the post may be deleted as having 'nothing to reasonably discuss'- it's a debating forum. We want to see your thoughts put out there.- The same goes from copying and pasting articles- it's fine, but we want your own text as well guys.


    So with that all in mind-
    Just a recap-

    We have a passenger plane shot down, Ukraine, Separatists and Russia all die involvement.

    The EU and US are still embroiled in their own love-hate affair and thus far have discussed but not implemented further and wider sweeping sanctions.

    BUT: What sanctions they have implemented are biting (Or is it merely the Russian economies structural weaknesses coming to the fore regardless of international actions?)

    http://www.economist.com/news/financ...3956ea65f756e0

    http://www.economist.com/news/busine...3956ea65f756e0

    So is the 'West' being firm or merely paying lip service while they deal with other issues?

    Russia has arguably toned down their rhetoric closing the border. -Putin's actions here are those of a genius? Or is he biting off more than he can chew on the world stage.

    Finally Ukrainian forces are engaged with the Separatists. Who's winning the ground war? and indeed who's winning the perception war?


    With all that said. Alons-y chaps!


    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; July 20, 2014 at 04:42 AM.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia with the EU/US trying to steal the limelight for good measure.The Development thread. A tale of Diva's ego's and real life suffering.

    And the Russians are stalling so that the evidence deteriorates and/or vanishes.
    Last edited by Aikanár; July 20, 2014 at 03:37 PM. Reason: no longer relevant
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia with the EU/US trying to steal the limelight for good measure. Development thread. A tale of Diva's, romance and pseudo-warfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    We have a passenger plane shot down, Ukraine, Separatists and Russia all die involvement.
    Freudian slip?

    On a more serious note, I don't think there can be any thread on the Ukraine crisis which is devoid of any personal attacks or any constructive debate as both sides have now been reduced to dismissing each others sources as propaganda. However, I am glad that I have gotten a little taste of what the cold war might have been like if the internet had been as prolific as it is today, gratitude gentlemen. If the quality of this debate depresses/irritates anyone please view any comment section on numerous new outlets to see true bile and paranoia, guaranteed to cheer you up.
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  16. #16
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia with the EU/US trying to steal the limelight for good measure.The Development thread. A tale of Diva's ego's creating real suffering

    Quote Originally Posted by 6th Vigil View Post
    Freudian slip?
    Haha well i'm merely using the same statement everyone else is, unless we're saying it was an 'engine failure' or something. But it seems many sources are claiming it was a missile. But from whom?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28361223
    http://www.channel4.com/news/malaysi...airline-border
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/101838653
    http://www.theverge.com/2014/7/17/59...n-over-ukraine

    With regards to Caratacus' question and Condottiere's worries. Perhaps i have made it clear that this is actually a continuation of the other thread, not a new topic. Hence why their are posts carried over.

    Will change the title to reflect this.

    But the reasons are (i'd rather people pm or use the mod commentary as then it doesn't take things off topic. Just a warning here, as i don't want to see people getting in trouble over this). The 500 Page/ 10,000 post mark rule we have due to various server aspects. Also when it takes myself and others about 30 minutes to go through and clean the former thread, it's time for a new one. As it allows for a refocusing on actual issues, a fresh start where people can clearly see what's right and wrong and are not mired with pent up violations of the ToS. Also it's easier for us to keep track of things once they become to unwieldy. As seriously i don't have the time to sit here all day watching one thread. Thus we have this, the continuation of the former. Hopefully that clears it all up guys.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; July 20, 2014 at 07:36 AM.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia with the EU/US trying to steal the limelight for good measure.The Development thread. A tale of Diva's ego's creating real suffering

    Quote Originally Posted by 6th Vigil View Post
    On a more serious note, I don't think there can be any thread on the Ukraine crisis which is devoid of any personal attacks or any constructive debate as both sides have now been reduced to dismissing each others sources as propaganda. However, I am glad that I have gotten a little taste of what the cold war might have been like if the internet had been as prolific as it is today, gratitude gentlemen. If the quality of this debate depresses/irritates anyone please view any comment section on numerous new outlets to see true bile and paranoia, guaranteed to cheer you up.
    well i can only speak for myself but i am only dismissing anything originating from Russia or any outlet anywhere whose parent company traces back to Russia, it is my sensible reaction to what Putin has done with his country's media and the quality of state-sponsored garbage coming out of RT, Voice of Russia, et al, as well as the nice succession of lies that have come out of Putin's mouth as evidenced by Crimea, eastern Ukraine, and now this plane situation.
    Last edited by Aikanár; July 20, 2014 at 03:38 PM. Reason: continuity

  18. #18

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia with the EU/US trying to steal the limelight for good measure.The Development thread. A tale of Diva's ego's creating real suffering

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    Haha well i'm merely using the same statement everyone else is, unless we're saying it was an 'engine failure' or something. But it seems many sources are claiming it was a missile. But from whom?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28361223
    http://www.channel4.com/news/malaysi...airline-border
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/101838653
    http://www.theverge.com/2014/7/17/59...n-over-ukraine
    Haha, well actually I was referring to the part where you said "Russia, Separatists and Ukraine all die" rather than what I'm sure you meant to be "deny". As to who shot the plane down it seems most likely that it was the Russian equipped separatists who have so far hindered full investigations and access to the supposedly "missing" black box. Furthermore, why would Ukrainian forces target planes heading West-East across Ukraine when the separatists don't have any airpower, not withstanding the standard and quite disgusting suggestions of a false flag operation by the "West".

    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    well i can only speak for myself but i am only dismissing anything originating from Russia or any outlet anywhere whose parent company traces back to Russia, it is my sensible reaction to what Putin has done with his country's media and the quality of state-sponsored garbage coming out of RT, Voice of Russia, et al, as well as the nice succession of lies that have come out of Putin's mouth as evidenced by Crimea, eastern Ukraine, and now this plane situation.
    I also disregard RT, Voice of Russia et al, not to say that I don't read them anyway, but my comment wasn't particularly targeted at everyone in the debate but at how the debate has stagnated because members taking part have polarised and thus there will be little area for constructive discussion. But maybe Dante is right and it is the "audience" reading the thread are the target for convincing in this discussion.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Ukraine and Crimea development thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Russia recognized his election as legitimate unlike the referendum. And multiple other countries.
    But you said referendums were not legitimate because rebels didn't control some areas. But same could be said about Poroshenko's election.
    And? It snot just countries that are friendly to kiev. Not a single country in the world. Zero. None. No one recognizes the Donetsk People's Republic. It has no sovereignty it has no borders.
    South Osetia was de-facto independent like that for more then a decade.
    I'd like to add that we had no independent way to confirm the referendum results since the separatists didn't allow any international observers. We have to take the word of the rebels, who are biased towards having the result sin their favor.
    So you have a source that would confirm that they did not allow international observers to enter?

  20. #20
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia with the EU/US trying to steal the limelight for good measure.The Development thread. A tale of Diva's ego's creating real suffering

    Quote Originally Posted by 6th Vigil View Post
    Haha, well actually I was referring to the part where you said "Russia, Separatists and Ukraine all die" rather than what I'm sure you meant to be "deny". As to who shot the plane down it seems most likely that it was the Russian equipped separatists who have so far hindered full investigations and access to the supposedly "missing" black box. Furthermore, why would Ukrainian forces target planes heading West-East across Ukraine when the separatists don't have any airpower, not withstanding the standard and quite disgusting suggestions of a false flag operation by the "West".
    Oh i'm so embarrassed! Freudian slip indeed +rep too for the laugh it gave me mate. I did indeed mean deny (I promise!). That's what i'm actually coming to believe to be honest on looking at the various reports about it. The fact they've done as much as they can now to make it difficult (and arguably the fact that Russia itself is staying well out of any investigation into the incident, not helping no hindering) rather point to it being them. Whether though it was an accident, or intentionally done to try and draw in a great conflict/give reason to Russia to reopen the border and actively support them i cant say at this stage.

    I have seen some of the accusations of 'The West' doing it. The mind boggles mate.
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