Thread: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

  1. #5121

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holger Danske View Post
    Yeah, Russia isn't even on the top ten list of German exports. As for Russia's exports to Germany.. Yeah you guess it. Energy. So Russia is clearly as important for Germany as the Kremlin apologist (you included) makes it.
    Yeah and economy goes up and down. Rofl.
    It's like you Russophobes aren't even trying to be ever remotely serious anymore. I get it, it must be hard seeing your ideas fail (when lucky) or completely derail and backfire in most cases. Still...

  2. #5122
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Yeah and economy goes up and down. Rofl.
    It's like you Russophobes aren't even trying to be ever remotely serious anymore. I get it, it must be hard seeing your ideas fail (when lucky) or completely derail and backfire in most cases. Still...
    The truth of the matter is Russia will always be a force to reckon with, but it certainly cannot overplay its hand and earn the true ire of the EU (i.e. Empress Merkel the Creditor).



    Let's see Russia try its brand of unconventional and asymmetric-style warfare (like seen in Ukraine) on an EU or NATO member. Russia can prod and poke in little ways to huff and puff and make itself look big (like a spiky blowfish), but that's all kabuki theater. The fact of the matter is the Russian economy is heavily reliant on the international sale of natural gas, but desperately needs foreign investment as well, and investors don't like instability. Especially when a good many of those investors come from countries belonging to the EU, which Russia is increasingly at odds with over Ukraine. In the end Russia will play nice, because only a dog with rabies bites the hand that feeds it. I think Putin's had his shots.

  3. #5123

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Rather logical? Ukraine has 1780 T-64s. They lost one hundred. Oh damn, now they only have 1680 T-64 tanks.
    But how many tanks can Ukraine maintain and actively use? They'd need fuel, spare parts, etc.
    Sepertaists claim to blow one up in Ukraine and have video of it. I posted it for you. ukraine claimas to have captured a few.
    Claim is a key word here. Both sides hyperbole their victories.
    And of course there is Adar's video.

    http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/4270

    T-72B3s have Kontak-5 armor. But of coruse Ukraine owns the same armor as well. Problem is that the only Ukranian T-72s that ever had Kontak-5 armor were the T-72AG and the T-72AMG.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-72_op...s_and_variants

    As you can see, T-72Ms in Ukrinaina service never carried kontak-5 armor. So that can't be a T-72M the rebels captured. Why are thye lying about the tank's real variant?
    Because it is based on a youtube channel? Is there an official source from the rebels that they have captured T-72Ms in the first place?

  4. #5124
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    But how many tanks can Ukraine maintain and actively use? They'd need fuel, spare parts, etc.
    Lol. Do you realize the original and main factroy to build T-64s was and is still located in Ukraine? They have plenty. And not only that, they actually have continued to upgrade their T-64s while the Soviets stopped in 1987. Thats why they use them still. And its why they put their T-72s in storage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Claim is a key word here. Both sides hyperbole their victories.

    Because it is based on a youtube channel? Is there an official source from the rebels that they have captured T-72Ms in the first place?
    Why would the rebels comment on capturing one tank when the seprtaists have known to capture dozens of Ukrinaina APCs, vehicles, tanks, and heavy guns? I don't think they announced it every time they got one.

    And both sides hyperbole their victories? Capturing a tank is a hyperbolic victory? Please. I have three sources showing Russian involvement in Ukraine and you have?
    Last edited by Vanoi; October 23, 2014 at 11:27 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  5. #5125
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Russia prevent the extension of border controls that would take place after the Minsk agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by UOSCE
    Russia Continues to Obstruct Expansion of Border Checkpoint Observation Mission

    PRESS RELEASE | October 22, 2014
    Despite repeated requests from OSCE member and partner States, the Russian Federation continued to block the expansion of the Border Checkpoint Observation Mission beyond the two border checkpoints where it is currently deployed. These checkpoints together make up just 1 km of the hundreds of kilometers of the international border between Ukraine and Russia.
    U.S. Permanent Representative to the OSCE Ambassador Daniel Baer expressed his regret that Russia refused to agree to expanding the observation mission to additional checkpoints and the border areas between them-- as the Swiss OSCE Chairmanship had proposed. Russia also vetoed a modest increase in the number of observers, as requested by the Chief Observer, to reduce the excessive workload faced by the observer mission’s small working teams.
    “Regretfully, this continued obstruction is yet another missed opportunity for Russia to match words with action and to contribute to de-escalation,” stated Ambassador Baer. “There should be no illusions—the observer mission as it stands is inadequate.”
    “We continue to call on Russia to support full implementation of the Minsk protocol, which clearly foresees OSCE monitoring and verification on both sides of the Ukrainian-Russian international border, as well as the creation of a security zone in the border areas of Ukraine and Russia,” Ambassador Baer said. “Russia must also withdraw its fighters and heavy weapons from Ukraine and return all hostages, as Russia signed up to do at Minsk.”
    Because the expansion of the mission was blocked, the Permanent Council today was only able to approve a one month extension of the existing effort, which has 16 observers working at only two checkpoints.
    Kathy Eagen, Counselor for Public Affairs
    U.S. Mission to the OSCE
    Source

  6. #5126
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    I stopped reading there. Not worthy the discussion.
    You don`t even have the basic knowledge who FRG`s main trade partners are, the Russian Federation isn`t one of them.

  7. #5127
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ukrainian.html

    " Poroshenko signed off on the formation of an anti-corruption bureau and a “lustration” law barring public servants affiliated with the old regime from office."


    Can you even pass such laws in a democracy, stopping those that you don't like from running for office? Shouldn't the people decide whether they want those we have come to know as old, corrupt kleptocrats in the parliament and at what degree?
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  8. #5128

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ukrainian.html

    " Poroshenko signed off on the formation of an anti-corruption bureau and a “lustration” law barring public servants affiliated with the old regime from office."


    Can you even pass such laws in a democracy, stopping those that you don't like from running for office? Shouldn't the people decide whether they want those we have come to know as old, corrupt kleptocrats in the parliament and at what degree?
    Yes, you can and you should ban kleptocrats from running for office and have any sort of political activity.

    Here is why:

    In most of Eastern Europe, even the EU member countries, the largest political parties are controlled by ex-high-ranked members of the communist party, ex-high rank secret police officers and oligarchs who are either ex-apparatchiks or ex-secret police.

    Because of that, the voters can only choose among thieves. They choose freely, but they choose only thieves nevertheless.

    It is not possible in any practical way to form a party not related to such unsavory characters because such a party won't ever take off the ground out of lack of resources, nor would it have access to the media, because the media is owned by such people.

    Therefore the only way to limit the influence of such people is to bar them from running for office or to be in leadership positions inside the political parties (so they cannot nominate their puppets for office).

    Such laws were enacted in Germany and Italy after WW2 and in the Czech Republic after 1990. They succeeded in cleansing to a high degree the political system in those countries at those points in time.

    The mess Ukraine is makes such law absolutely necessary. In itself it would only reduce the influence of the oligarchs and secret services, without eliminating it completely.

    The oligarchs would have to look for new politicians to bribe and the secret services will try to dig up incriminating information on the new politicians, so they can continue to blackmail them.

    But eliminating the whole networks of corruption in one go would greatly increase the chances that better people would end up in office. Some of those new people would be resistant to bribes and some would have no questionable behavior which would make them targets for blackmail.
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  9. #5129
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ukrainian.html

    " Poroshenko signed off on the formation of an anti-corruption bureau and a “lustration” law barring public servants affiliated with the old regime from office."


    Can you even pass such laws in a democracy, stopping those that you don't like from running for office? Shouldn't the people decide whether they want those we have come to know as old, corrupt kleptocrats in the parliament and at what degree?
    Furthermore, the old government wasn't an old regime, but the previously democratically elected government of Ukraine. It's like the Republicans getting the White House and then saying that they'll kick out any public servants who got their jobs under the Democrats.

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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites View Post
    Yes, you can and you should ban kleptocrats from running for office and have any sort of political activity.
    And how you judge who from the past establishment was a corrupt kleptocrat and who was just a guy that loves and wants to serve his country but has a different opinion on the direction Ukraine should take than you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites View Post
    Such laws were enacted in Germany and Italy after WW2 and in the Czech Republic after 1990. They succeeded in cleansing to a high degree the political system in those countries at those points in time.
    Not for public servants that served under the Nazi party. Most of the post WW2 German army officers were German veterans. Stopping prominent Nazis to run for office as Nazis is not the same as stopping everyone that worked with them to run for office. And BTW, Nazis were worse for Germany (turned it to a graveyard) and were one of the main reasons for WW2. It's not the same league as the Ukraine's oligarchs.
    Last edited by alhoon; October 24, 2014 at 05:05 AM.
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  11. #5131

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    You guys may want to check who is actually targeted by the laws. Ex KGB and top Yanukovich officials are the ones barred from office for 5 to 10 years.

    Nobody is shading a tear for those ones, except for their relatives.

    And it doesn't matter those were democratically elected. I have already explained the people have no real choice. They only choose among thieves.

    The opposition guys are almost as fit for jail as those lustrated. But that process had to start someplace.

    Romania, which is nowhere near Ukraine in terms of corruption, would greatly benefit from a lustration law.
    Last edited by Dromikaites; October 24, 2014 at 03:06 PM.
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  12. #5132

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    It's like the Republicans getting the White House and then saying that they'll kick out any public servants who got their jobs under the Democrats.
    but Poroshenko is from Party of Regions ..

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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    but Poroshenko is from Party of Regions ..
    ...OK?

  14. #5134
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites View Post
    You guys may want to check who is actually targeted by the laws. Ex KGB and top Yanukovich officials are the ones barred from office for 5 to 10 years.
    That's better in effect but still it's a principle that leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
    Unless of course those guys have been convicted for treason or something. Then it's OK.

    But the government to have the power to exclude persons from running for election without them have been convicted is a bad, bad precedent.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  15. #5135
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    That's better in effect but still it's a principle that leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
    Unless of course those guys have been convicted for treason or something. Then it's OK.

    But the government to have the power to exclude persons from running for election without them have been convicted is a bad, bad precedent.
    As Dromi has say it, it happened in other countries, thus there is no precedent.

    If EU members moan about Romania and Bulgaria then they should take a look at Ukraine.

    There are quite a lot of categories of people that can`t run for all posts or run at all.First generation of migrants can`t occupy the head of state post or convicts who can`t run for anything, thus there are exceptions, we leave in a representative democracies not in absolute democracies.

    You complaining about some minor things based on principles while you ignore the gargantuan tarantula next to you.Ukraine did a outstanding move, they must be congratulated.

  16. #5136
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post
    As Dromi has say it, it happened in other countries, thus there is no precedent.
    That it has happened in the past, doesn't mean it's right or democratic.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post
    There are quite a lot of categories of people that can`t run for all posts or run at all.First generation of migrants can`t occupy the head of state post or convicts who can`t run for anything, thus there are exceptions, we leave in a representative democracies not in absolute democracies.

    You complaining about some minor things based on principles while you ignore the gargantuan tarantula next to you.Ukraine did a outstanding move, they must be congratulated.
    But the people excluded aren't convicts. They're just people the current government thinks they shouldn't run. Yes I believe the majority are corrupt. But there could be people there that just have a different opinion than the Ukranian government although they still love their country. Not everyone that supports closer ties to Russia or distance from the EU is a corrupt traitor after all.

    On your example with the tarantula, you focus on the small tarantula that you can kill with your shoe and look past the poisonous snake that sneaks behind you:
    When the government, not the courts, but the government decides that some people are not eligible to run not because they're convicts, traitors or immigrants but because they worked with the previous (corrupt) government, you empower the government to decide who should run and who should not.
    OK, let's assume that everyone on the current list is a traitor. What about the next elections? What would stop the current government of expanding the list to include political opponents (without asking anyone) using fabricated evidence they worked at some point with the previous regime saying "they were secretly affiliated with the previous corrupt system! Trust us, they were! We decide they shouldn't run." or something?

    Such laws are not a good thing in my opinion. The persons that worked with the previous government and are corrupt could well be tried and convicted by a court of law that is (at least in theory) more independent than the government itself. That is the proper way to stop someone from running IMO.
    Last edited by alhoon; October 25, 2014 at 03:20 AM.
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  17. #5137

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    The essence of the situation in countries like Ukraine and those parts of Eastern Europe where there were no lustration laws is that all the political parties are controlled by very bad people.

    So democracy is just an empty concept there, because the elections can only replace some bad people with other bad people.

    Rest assured many of the members of the current coalition were actually horrified they must vote for such law under the pressure of the street. In the coming months they will be exposed as former KGB officers and will lose their jobs as well.

    In Romania several high profile right wing politicians, with a strong anti-communist speech were revealed to be ex-secret police officers or informants once the archives of the secret police were opened. Nobody was surprised to find that about left wing politicians, but those guys posed as 100% democrats judging by their words.

    However, since we didn't have a lustration law (for the very reason the politicians from all parties are tainted), such disclosures didn't have an impact on their parties. Or on those people.

    For instance, a major oligarch, who owned the largest media corporation (newspapers, radio, TV stations) was exposed as not only a secret police informant, but he reported on his own family, resulting in his cousins being persecuted by the communist regime.

    In spite of that, thanks for owning the largest media corporation in Romania, he was so influential several political parties, both from the left (expected) and from the right (apparently surprising) formed coalitions with his otherwise minuscule party, so he always ended up on an eligible place on the electoral list.

    The people knew who he was but since they could only vote the list put forward by the parties, they implicitly voted for him as well.

    Then, when under street pressure a so-called uninominal vote was adopted, the politicians twisted the law in such way to allow for redistribution of the votes of the circumscriptions where no candidate got over 50% of the votes. Thanks to this redistribution, he again got elected, by receiving the votes initially cast for other candidates from the same coalition.

    You cannot count on corrupt politicians to make good laws, so the only way to get rid of such people is through "abuses" like this lustration law, which considers everybody who worked directly under Yanukovich or was an ex-KGB as bad by default.

    In the case of that Romanian oligarch, he was finally sent behind bars this year, once the Americans practically took over the Romanian judicial system. The Americans are doing the cleansing only because they are going to open a second military base in Romania and corrupt politicians with strong ties with the communist regime are a security risk for their troops.

    Had the situation in Ukraine have not exploded, the Americans would not have cared about this part of the world. The EU pressure would have been much milder (that guy was free to continue to blackmail and steal for 7 years of EU membership).

    Just think about it: what can the EU offer to a Romanian policeman, prosecutor or judge, in order to persuade him to do his job and go after those politicians who decide his salary and career path? The Americans on the other hand have those things called green cards and full tuition to top universities for the children of those policemen, prosecutors and judges. Combining that to the evidence the FBI, the CIA and the NSA can gather on such corrupt politicians means the policemen, prosecutors and judges have both the incentive and the means needed to do their jobs.

    Why can't the Romanian democracy take care of itself without requiring foreign assistance?

    Precisely because in the absence of a lustration law (like in the Czech Republic or Poland), those people ensured only them and their puppets ever got to run for office.

    If you cannot vote for a honest person because a honest person does not get to become an official party candidate, free and fair elections solve absolutely nothing.

    If you cannot vote for a honest person who runs as an independent candidate because you would never hear about such person running for office from the media controlled by people like that oligarch, free and fair elections solve nothing either.

    Going for nice concepts like "everybody should be presumed innocent and a patriot even though he worked for Yanukovich" is the surest way to sabotage yourself.

    What you think would happen, that the government would bar anybody from running for office stems from the flawed assumption the U.S. and the EU have no saying into who gets barred from office. In truth, the lists of who can run from office and who cannot will be drawn in Brussels and Washington.

    Does that infringe on the Ukrainian sovereignty? Yes it does.

    Is that similar to what Putin was doing? Yes it is.

    The difference is the effects this "loss of sovereignty" has on the Ukrainian nation.

    If Putin would have been allowed to have his ways with Ukraine, the Ukrainian nation would suffer from corruption, political assassinations and graft like Russia and her satellites are.

    If the West is "dictating" the reforms in Ukraine, the country would go the same path as the rest of Central and Eastern Europe, which is exactly what the Ukrainians want.

    Keep in mind nobody sheds a tear for the "victims" of the Ukrainian lustration just like people in Romania often cheer and applaud when they see politicians being dragged in handcuffs from their offices, thanks to the "American interference".
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  18. #5138
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites View Post
    Does that infringe on the Ukrainian sovereignty? Yes it does.

    Is that similar to what Putin was doing? Yes it is.

    The difference is the effects this "loss of sovereignty" has on the Ukrainian nation.

    If Putin would have been allowed to have his ways with Ukraine, the Ukrainian nation would suffer from corruption, political assassinations and graft like Russia and her satellites are.

    If the West is "dictating" the reforms in Ukraine, the country would go the same path as the rest of Central and Eastern Europe, which is exactly what the Ukrainians want.
    While you make some good points in your post, I refuse to accept that the only way for Romania or Ukraine to prosper is as a protectorate of EU and USA or, worse as in the case of EU/USA dictating would actually run for office, as a colony of USA/EU.
    USA and the various EU countries care for their people's prospects and interests, not Romanians nor Ukrainians. Living on the shadow dictates of Brussels and Washington has a very heavy price. If things go for Romania as you say, and EU/USA install their puppets what makes you think those puppets won't actually be as bad as the other side?
    And even if they are not... you're sacrificing sovereignty as you said.
    Do you prefer to live on your knees with mildly better kleptocrat masters than decide your own fate? Do you really believe the only possible future for your country and Ukraine is bowing to either Putin's Russia or the West and have their appointed leaders?
    Last edited by alhoon; October 25, 2014 at 08:34 AM.
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  19. #5139

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    While you make some good points in your post, I refuse to accept that the only way for Romania or Ukraine to prosper is as a protectorate of EU and USA or, worse as in the case of EU/USA dictating would actually run for office, as a colony of USA/EU.
    USA and the various EU countries care for their people's prospects and interests, not Romanians nor Ukrainians. Living on the shadow dictates of Brussels and Washington has a very heavy price. If things go for Romania as you say, and EU/USA install their puppets what makes you think those puppets won't actually be as bad as the other side?
    And even if they are not... you're sacrificing sovereignty as you said.
    Do you prefer to live on your knees with mildly better cleptocrat masters than decide your own fate? Do you really believe the only possible future for your country and Ukraine is bowing to either Putin's Russia or the West and have their appointed leaders?

    Choosing between 2 evils, I would go for the lesser one. Been living all my life in Europe, Europe takes care of me. So yea, Europe/USA it is.
    Also, If i can't be a master of my fate with mildly better cleptocrats, how can I be such master under even worse cleptocrats under Russia?

    Of course, it is a crying shame that we cannot choose our fate, but, novadays, nobody can: the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must. Too bad, but I guess we got to suck it up, either UA, Greece and even Russians themselves.



  20. #5140
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Indeed, small nations have no choice but to align with great ones, and if they have a choice they should choose the most beneficial. For Greece, at least, the EU/US is a better choice than Russia or China.

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