Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

[Condottiere 40K]

Some analysts believe that Putin has decided he's bitten off more than he can chew, and is willing to back off from supporting the separatists in the Ukraine in exchange for a promise that the Ukraine won't join NATO.

[Dromikaites]

Some analysts believe that Putin has decided he's bitten off more than he can chew, and is willing to back off from supporting the separatists in the Ukraine in exchange for a promise that the Ukraine won't join NATO.

That promise would be up to Ukraine to make.

From NATO's point of view, Putin has made their job easy by turning the Ukrainian public opinion in favor of NATO membership.

[I WUB PUGS]

Some analysts believe that Putin has decided he's bitten off more than he can chew, and is willing to back off from supporting the separatists in the Ukraine in exchange for a promise that the Ukraine won't join NATO.

He's either actually not bitten off more than he can chew and is asking for all he wanted all along or he's banking on the Ukrainians continuing the fight because they've been emboldened by the West and he thinks he can push them further. I can't think of him wanting more than assurances from Ukraine. I mean sure, some people think he wants to annex Ukraine, but that's a bit much and fruitless. A weak Ukraine laying down for Russia is all he could hope for. Got Crimea out of it already.

Personally I think we should be trying to get the Ukrainians to let the sliver in the east go. Normalize relations with Russia while fast-tracking Ukraine into the EU and NATO to prevent this happening again.

[ElvenKind]

I wonder why can't they show video or photographs of remains of the column if they destroyed it. I guess it'll end up just the like the black boxes and recordings from MH17...

It concerns Ukraine's national security, they must not show to the world what did they actually hit.. Probably their own units, again..

[Dromikaites]

Personally I think we should be trying to get the Ukrainians to let the sliver in the east go. Normalize relations with Russia while fast-tracking Ukraine into the EU and NATO to prevent this happening again.

How about a much profitable scenario:

Get the whole Ukraine in NATO and the EU, Crimea included?

Since getting Crimea back implies Russia has imploded, that would also solve the issue of gaining direct access to the Russian natural resources and integrating the ex-Russian Federation states into the EU and NATO, one by one?

[Nikitn]

Some analysts believe that Putin has decided he's bitten off more than he can chew, and is willing to back off from supporting the separatists in the Ukraine in exchange for a promise that the Ukraine won't join NATO.

What exactly do you think Putin tried to "bite off"? Do you think he wanted to annex an underdeveloped Donbass, a move that would cripple the Russian economy and its international standing? Or do you think he wanted to sow chaos in a neighboring state, reaping the rewards of increased crime on the border and weakened trade?

If anything, Putin was probably just putting pressure on the Ukrainian government when this stuff got out of hand and turned into a full civil war. And then MH17 got shot down which really fk up the situation.

How about a much profitable scenario:

Get the whole Ukraine in NATO and the EU, Crimea included?

Since getting Crimea back implies Russia has imploded, that would also solve the issue of gaining direct access to the Russian natural resources and integrating the ex-Russian Federation states into the EU and NATO, one by one?

lol reminds me of a local newspaper article I read while I was in Crimea "Kiev recruits ministers from mental institutions: new minister of defense vows to see Ukrainian victory parade in Sevastopol by 2015".

How exactly do you propose RF will "implode", dromi?

[Dromikaites]

How exactly do you propose RF will "implode", dromi?

Gee, I can think of several scenarios:

1) 1917 variant - the inept oligarchy drags the country into a disastrous war and reaps the consequences. Rest assured the West has plenty of Russians willing to play Lenin's part. And this time we will have NATO to pick up the pieces not a war-weary Entente;

2) 1991 variant - a collapse as the result of Cold War 2

3) My personal favorite, a combination of the above.

[I WUB PUGS]

How about a much profitable scenario:

...Russia has imploded

That's the worst possible scenario for everyone. But you're a hard line Russophobe so, eh, whatever.

[Pavlik the Rus]

And here is the answer to the story about mythical RF"s military column.
EU promissed new sanctions on RF.
Same story with boieng. No proofs, but RF is quilty.
In this case no blood of civilians luckly. But entire story the same - no evidences, only a tweet of journalist, and here we go!.
Fair "civilized" world, sure.

[karo]

And here is the answer to the story about mythical RF"s military column.
EU promissed new sanctions on RF.
Same story with boieng. No proofs, but RF is quilty.
In this case no blood of civilians luckly. But entire story the same - no evidences, only a tweet of journalist, and here we go!.
Fair "civilized" world, sure.

How do you know no proof has been provided to the people who actually make these decisions? What is it with people who have zero power to do anything demanding for proof of anything like they matter?

[Heathen Hammer]

How do you know no proof has been provided to the people who actually make these decisions? What is it with people who have zero power to do anything demanding for proof of anything like they matter?

If they had proof, they'd parade it everywhere. The fact that data on MH17 has not been released says a lot, especially given how Ukrainian KGB("SBU") released tapes where rebels allegedly discuss their alleged accidental downing of the airliner. Only problem was that EXIF tool revealed that those tapes were made a day before the airliner was actually shot down.

[Chukada1]

I think we can all agree that China gained the most from this.

Lots of natural gas at great prices, cant be beat!!!

[I WUB PUGS]

Yeah, they're getting the German discount. Yet another market US producers lose out on.

[Dromikaites]

If they had proof, they'd parade it everywhere. The fact that data on MH17 has not been released says a lot, especially given how Ukrainian KGB("SBU") released tapes where rebels allegedly discuss their alleged accidental downing of the airliner. Only problem was that EXIF tool revealed that those tapes were made a day before the airliner was actually shot down.

Repeating the same lie put in circulation by Putin's troll farms won't make it true.

Nor would it have any impact on the outcome of the battles in Eastern Ukraine.

Nor would it cause the Western governments to stop escalating the sanctions against Russia.

[ElvenKind]

Where is Geronimo2006 with his twitter facts?

Regarding MH17 and the " deafening silence " .. strange how the " bad " guys handed over the MH17 airliner data and voice recorders that would prove their guilt, whereas the " good " guys held back the ATC data that would prove their innocence.

And, this attack on allegedly Russian convoy, where are twitter facts, youtube video proof?

Come on CIA and Ukrainian SBU, social media can't do your job ALL THE TIME.

Also, it is strange how this alleged russian incursion happened when the EU leaders started having second thoughts on currently imposed sanctions against Russia..

What are you up to Obama? Another set of lies and false flag attacks?

[Flavius Julius Nepos Augustus]

Oh god, why didn't they just gave Vladimir/Russia back the title of European police (btw what is spain doing? ). And the Ottoman empire is named Turkey, I didn't know that it was named like that in 1877. Notice the blood caused by Crimea....

[snuggans]

That's the worst possible scenario for everyone. But you're a hard line Russophobe so, eh, whatever.

i wonder what other term you'll come up with when Russia turns back into an actual democracy with real elections and not being ruled by gangsters serving infinite terms and the insanely corrupt United Russia apparatus, when it stops being an international pariah being cheered by the likes of North Korea and Syria, when it stops taking a crap all over its own press and civil liberties and stops resorting to WW2-era propaganda. why do you continue to stubbornly confuse "Putinphobia" with russophobia? it's really not the same and to equate the two is in my view an insult to Russia who quite honestly deserves a lot better than this.

[wulfgar610]

Some analysts believe that Putin has decided he's bitten off more than he can chew, and is willing to back off from supporting the separatists in the Ukraine in exchange for a promise that the Ukraine won't join NATO.

That's rational argument and might even be a choice strategy. But The Putin is not known for backing down. He might conclude that if he ever did "back down" he'd find himself backing all the way to Urals.



Liberating novorossiya from "genocidal fascists" might be a big bite but also a necessary one. I suspect with the "liberation" of Crimea, the train has already left the station.

[I WUB PUGS]

i wonder what other term you'll come up with when Russia turns back into an actual democracy with real elections and not being ruled by gangsters serving infinite terms and the insanely corrupt United Russia apparatus, when it stops being an international pariah being cheered by the likes of North Korea and Syria, when it stops taking a crap all over its own press and civil liberties and stops resorting to WW2-era propaganda. why do you continue to stubbornly confuse "Putinphobia" with russophobia? it's really not the same and to equate the two is in my view an insult to Russia who quite honestly deserves a lot better than this.

Oh come the on Snuggans. There are exactly 2 people in this thread that I have or would term "Russophobes" specifically because they've advocated the destruction of Russia. Not Putin, but Russia.

You wonder why I treat you with so much contempt, its because you can barely be bothered to read my responses to people.

Dromi said "Russia has imploded" as a good thing, which is idiocy. The potential for well armed (as in nuclear) factions and MILLIONS of refugees alone should be enough to give anyone with a shred of sense plenty of pause before wishing for that.

Stop skimming my posts for buzzwords so you can set your bra on fire.







Sorry. Gotta edit. See that red part? When exactly was Russia a functioning democracy? Please say Yeltsin. PLEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Vanoi]

South Osetia's independence wasn't recognized by Russia until 2008, but it was de-facto independent since early 1990s.

Still ignoring the point of the results not being able to be verified?