Thread: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

  1. #5141
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    but Poroshenko is from Party of Regions ..
    He was a founding member but wisely left the party when it pulled out of the EU-Association Agreement. He also served under Yuschenko though.

    If Russia is not a party to the conflict - as repeatedly and absurdly claimed by Putin - then why is the rubber-stamp Duma 'debating' a bill to compensate families of 'volunteers' who fought in Ukraine? A pro-Putin MP has now admitted soldiers from Pskov fought and died there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moscow Times
    President Vladimir Putin has signed into law a bill on paying military pensions to the families of soldiers who have gone missing in action, and a high-ranking lawmaker told Russian media that the legislature is seeking to extend the benefits to "volunteers" in eastern Ukraine.The bill of amendments, signed by Putin, expands the list of possible beneficiaries to include the families of those who are missing in action or have been killed during reservist training, according to the text of the document published on the Kremlin website Wednesday.
    The law excludes any Russian soldiers who are known to have perished in Ukraine, its author and head of the Federation Council's Defense and Security Committee Viktor Ozerov told Gazeta.ru. Those soldiers could include paratroopers who were buried in the Pskov region recently.
    "Our paratroopers from Pskov and any others were in southeastern Ukraine voluntarily," Ozerov was quoted as saying.
    But he said Federation Council chairwoman Valentina Matviyenko has asked lawmakers to submit proposals for a new bill that would ensure that the "families of killed volunteers, and those who were injured, would also receive compensation from the state," Gazeta.ru reported....
    If you are financially rewarding families who fight in a foreign war then by definition you are a party to the conflict. And given the shenanigans beforehand by Sergei Shoigu visiting Pskov to talk about 'peacekeeping missions' it's very hard to believe they were not acting under orders from Putin.
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  2. #5142

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Ukrainian army "welcomed" by civilians in Mariupol. In the end, Ukrainian military opens fire on unarmed civilians.

  3. #5143

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Ukrainian army "welcomed" by civilians in Mariupol. In the end, Ukrainian military opens fire on unarmed civilians.

    Exactly. They fired in the air.

    Interesting though - after the separatist counterattack at Novoazovsk, the Mariupoleans went out to dig trenches to protect the city from the separatists.

    Anyway boys, tomorrow will be an interesting day. The UA interior ministry is giving out warnings of a possible provocation from the separatists, who are dressing up as "Azov" and "Aidar" troopers, and also trucks bearing UA insignia.

    http://mvs.gov.ua/mvs/control/main/u...96062ECED4CD97 -- not available in english to read.

    Anyway, it says that Andrei Biletskyi, chief of the "Azov" battalion, says that there is no presence of "Azov" troops in Novoazovsk, where, according to the ministry info, Kamaz trucks with troops, bearing UA and "Azov" insignia were spotted.

    Oh well, just wait and see. :/
    Last edited by Saint_of_Battle; October 25, 2014 at 01:39 PM.



  4. #5144
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    Indeed, small nations have no choice but to align with great ones, and if they have a choice they should choose the most beneficial. For Greece, at least, the EU/US is a better choice than Russia or China.
    And while EU demands certain reforms from us, the Greek government has a say on what reforms actually pass or suggests counter-measures... which are usually worse than what EU had originally suggested. Alliance is difference than protectorate and protectorate is different than colony with appointed leaders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geronimo2006 View Post
    He also served under Yuschenko though.


    So, he is protected somehow from his own laws? Or is he not eligible to run again?
    Can I see a source that proves he served under the previous government and still passed a law that stops others (and perhaps himself) that did the same from running for office?
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    And while EU demands certain reforms from us, the Greek government has a say on what reforms actually pass or suggests counter-measures... which are usually worse than what EU had originally suggested. Alliance is difference than protectorate and protectorate is different than colony with appointed leaders.
    Right.

  6. #5146

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_of_Battle View Post
    Exactly. They fired in the air.
    False. The video clearly shows people being wounded.
    Interesting though - after the separatist counterattack at Novoazovsk, the Mariupoleans went out to dig trenches to protect the city from the separatists.
    Did Ukrainian media claim that before or after the nuclear attack from Russia?
    Anyway boys, tomorrow will be an interesting day. The UA interior ministry is giving out warnings of a possible provocation from the separatists, who are dressing up as "Azov" and "Aidar" troopers, and also trucks bearing UA insignia.

    http://mvs.gov.ua/mvs/control/main/u...96062ECED4CD97 -- not available in english to read.

    Anyway, it says that Andrei Biletskyi, chief of the "Azov" battalion, says that there is no presence of "Azov" troops in Novoazovsk, where, according to the ministry info, Kamaz trucks with troops, bearing UA and "Azov" insignia were spotted.

    Oh well, just wait and see. :/
    But this is an article from Ukrainian media. Of course they would whitewash Ukrainian side.

  7. #5147

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    False. The video clearly shows people being wounded.
    It does not show a thing. If anything, only the cameraman is shouting that there are wounded. What it shows is that everybody are falling to the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Did Ukrainian media claim that before or after the nuclear attack from Russia?
    I don't think it really matters. AFAIC, the claim that Russians used tactical nukes did not gain huge notoriety (I guess, even UA media did not really believe it). Either before, or after, Mariupoleans went out to dig trenches. Other than that, ever since Mariupol got retaken back in June, it has been quiet ever since. And the fact it remained so, even in favor of the UA forces, when the separatists attacked from the Russian border at Novoazovsk and the local vatniks did not rebel, assures me that everything is under control. Alas, everything remains to be seen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    But this is an article from Ukrainian media. Of course they would whitewash Ukrainian side.
    It is not the UA media, but the site of the Interior Ministry.
    Last edited by Saint_of_Battle; October 25, 2014 at 09:41 PM.



  8. #5148

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    While you make some good points in your post, I refuse to accept that the only way for Romania or Ukraine to prosper is as a protectorate of EU and USA or, worse as in the case of EU/USA dictating would actually run for office, as a colony of USA/EU.
    The USA or the EU need the guy to be a corupt politician on Putin's payroll or an ex-KGB / ex-Securitatea Statului officer or informat.

    If the guy is none of those things, they have nothing on him.

    Yes, that leaves out corupt politicians on American, British, French, German, etc payroll, who would be allowed to run for office, Africa-style or South-America style.

    However that type of scenario has already ran in places like Germany, Italy, Spain and Greece right after WW2. Out of those, Greece is currently the worst off. But I bet the Ukrainians would trade their current situation for the Greek one without blinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    USA and the various EU countries care for their people's prospects and interests, not Romanians nor Ukrainians.
    Very true. The thing is the local Romanian or Ukrainian politicians don't care about the Romanians or the Ukrainians either.
    They care only about robbing those countries blind.

    The twist is that the EU and the Americans force upon the local politicians a set of reforms which otherwise would not have happened ever. Just like without the pressure of the Troika the Greek politicians would have continued to do what they have done for the last 40 years and which brought Greece into serious trouble.

    Therefore removing the ex-communists, the ex-KGB and those on Kremlin's payroll creates a better functioning state. That opens the possibility for those countries in Eastern Europe to be like Germany (best case scenario) or like Greece (worst case scenario) or anything in-between. Either way, they will be much better off than they are today.
    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Living on the shadow dictates of Brussels and Washington has a very heavy price. If things go for Romania as you say, and EU/USA install their puppets what makes you think those puppets won't actually be as bad as the other side?
    It is not only the puppets, it is also the systems.

    Without proper anti-corruption laws the Americans and Brussels cannot eliminate the guys they want removed. Once the laws are in place, anybody abiding by those laws becomes immune to the American or Brussels pressure.

    Think Italy. Unlike Greece in WW2, Italy was on the wrong side. As such, Italy saw much more Allied interference with its institutions after WW2. That didn't eliminate the Mafia nor excluded people like Berlusconi from getting into office. However the Allied intervention created the systems the Italians themselves used in order to deal with the Mafia and the likes of Berlusconi.

    By contrast the Western much more limited interference in Greece right after WW2 resulted in...the military dictatorship, because the West considered fighting communism in Greece was more important than reforming the Greek institutions.

    If Ukraine (or Romania) get systems similar to the ones in Italy, they would be much better off than if they stay with what "sovereignty" brought them until now. But there is always the probability they would get something closer to what the Germans and the Americans have, if the Germans and the Americans supervise the reforms (which seems to be the case currently).
    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    And even if they are not... you're sacrificing sovereignty as you said.
    Sovereignty in itself is meaningless.

    Let's imagine that after building the second military base in Romania the Americans pull another Hawaii on us, meaning they annex us and transform us in their 51st state. There would be as much armed resistance to that as there is nowadays in Puerto Rico. We even had a joke in communist times, when it was rumored that Ceausescu's son had a gambling problem. We said we hope he would lose Romania to the Americans.

    Or, more close to home: have you ever wondered why the East European members of the EU are the most supportive of the plans for transforming the EU into a federal state? That would mean there will be only one form of sovereignty, the sovereignty of the "United States of Europe". Any idea why such EU members value their sovereignty so little?

    The answer is simple: sovereignty in itself means zilch if it doesn't make the citizens' life better. Being part of the "United States of Europe" is seen by those people the same as say people in Oklahoma see being part of the United States of America. Oklahoma's "sovereignty" means little compared to the advantages of being part of the USA.
    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Do you prefer to live on your knees with mildly better kleptocrat masters than decide your own fate?
    How exactly are say the Italians living on their knees because the Western allies forced the democratic institutions upon them in 1945 and placed their puppets in office probably until the mid-60s or the '70s?!

    I think the Italians preferred to live under such regime instead of the more "sovereign" Greek one ruled by colonels during the same time.

    Likewise, the Greeks decided their own fate with little German interference until the sovereign Greek politicians ran the country into the ground. I bet the Greek immigrants to Germany don't feel like moving to Greece any time soon while the Greeks in Greece might end up liking what the Troika is doing to their country.

    Sovereignty can only be a good thing if the politicians run the country well.
    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Do you really believe the only possible future for your country and Ukraine is bowing to either Putin's Russia or the West and have their appointed leaders?
    Nope.

    I believe the EU should become the United States of Europe, so that the people running it would try to please all the European voters alike, like the people running the United States are forced to do in order to get voted by the American citizens.

    But in order for that to happen, all the members of the federation would have to be truly functional democracies. For some members, that would imply reforms forced by Brussels and/or the USA because the local politicians would otherwise do everything in their power to perpetuate corruption, graft and all sorts of abuses.
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  9. #5149
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Dromokaites you make some interesting points but you forget one thing:
    We're now 70 years after WW2. After WW2, till the late 70s when we were more or less a protectorate of the West, situation in Greece was worse than it is in Ukraine and I would dare say (although I don't know numbers) in Romania. We had a civil war, we were hunting people down left and right for their political beliefs, we had poverty and we had social inequality that till the 60s surpassed even today crisis-fueled levels.

    BTW, I agree that enforcement of "Western" systems may be good in the long run for Romania and Ukraine. But that doesn't have to happen by surrendering that much. Case in point... your country! You don't have secret-appointees from EU to choose from and you're westernizing never the less. Yes, a little of a stick is needed (as in the case of Greece and much needed reforms). Not total surrender.

    Also, I disagree that surrendering your rights to another state is a trivial thing. Agreeing to form a bigger state is different though. I'm personally mildly against the "USE" mostly because in Europe we have different nations. Not colonists banded together for mutual benefit and after centuries forming a national identity as a whole as is the case of USA.
    Oklahoma does fine in the USA. Many native Americans though, the original people of the Americas, want their enclaves to be even more separate than the USA, and several of these enclaves have downright horrible poverty as it is. I don't know what the majority of native Americans think, but I've seen many of them protesting on the way USA treats them.
    Check another federal state that comprises of two nations: Belgium. In the heart of Europe. And there's talk of dissolving Belgium because people value having their own country. England had the same thing a few weeks ago with Scotland. Scots are with the English for centuries, speak the same language and nearly half of them wanted to secede! Canada and Quebec is another example. We have again colonists that after 3 centuries of being together, still have trouble co-existing. Generally federations of multiple nations face many problems because people want national sovereignty.

    In any case, if Romania and say Hungary decided to form a new country together, all the power to them. But that would be their decision and their people's decision. Not the decision of Putin or EU.
    Last edited by alhoon; October 25, 2014 at 11:43 PM.
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  10. #5150

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_of_Battle View Post
    It does not show a thing. If anything, only the cameraman is shouting that there are wounded. What it shows is that everybody are falling to the ground.
    So? You can hear other people cry for ambulance. So the military was firing at the unarmed crowd.
    I don't think it really matters. AFAIC, the claim that Russians used tactical nukes did not gain huge notoriety (I guess, even UA media did not really believe it). Either before, or after, Mariupoleans went out to dig trenches.
    We do not know whether they were forced to do so, or not.
    Other than that, ever since Mariupol got retaken back in June, it has been quiet ever since. And the fact it remained so, even in favor of the UA forces, when the separatists attacked from the Russian border at Novoazovsk and the local vatniks did not rebel, assures me that everything is under control. Alas, everything remains to be seen.
    Don't they have one of Kolomoisky's private armies occupying the city? UA troops are not very good at fighting armed rebels, but they are "efficient" against unarmed civilians.
    It is not the UA media, but the site of the Interior Ministry.
    So? It is obviously biased for one of the sides in conflict.

  11. #5151

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Another video of Novorossuain rebels fixing tanks and APCs abandoned by Ukrainian occupants:

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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    QUESTION: Can someone explain to me, with simple words, what's the election system in Ukraine? What means "half the MPs will be from 'open party lists' " which I have no idea what they are and half will be from constitueties?

    Does it mean that some candidates would be eligible for voting in the whole country and some would be region only? As in a ballot in X city would have something like "Vote 2 out of this 10 that run in the whole country and then 3 out of this 12 that run in our area only"?
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  13. #5153
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    More "abanonded" T-72B3s?
    Best/Worst quotes of TWC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  14. #5154
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    More "abanonded" T-72B3s?
    Most tanks look to be T-64BV:s carrying Kontakt-1 armour which is available to both Russian and Ukrainian forces.

    Oddly enough at 25 seconds into the clip they scroll past a tank which lack the brick-formation on it's turret mounted ERA and it also lack the space to the left of the ERA armour which accomodate the IR-light on a T-64. So that is probably not a T-64 which makes the whole video a bit "interesting" just as with the unarmed protestors firing pistols.

    The lack of mechanics "fixing" the tanks is also quite interesting.

  15. #5155

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post

    So? You can hear other people cry for ambulance. So the military was firing at the unarmed crowd.


    Don't they have one of Kolomoisky's private armies occupying the city? UA troops are not very good at fighting armed rebels, but they are "efficient" against unarmed civilians.
    1) I wonder aloud how, and why did it not cause a huge up-roar, if it really happened so. They are clearly firing in the air to scare the vatniks. Maybe one of them, or a few of them got heart attacks. Either way, the video does not show any wounded, or if they are really firing IN the crowd. But, please, provide me with a video of the same time period, where it clearly shows that the UA army is shooting unarmed vatniks in Mariupol, and I will reconsider my position - feel free to dig something up from the antimaidan groups - I for one loathe to go into that cesspool.

    2) Yep, they are definitely effective in keeping the vatniks in check. And whether they are efficient in fighting the separatists - well, the Donetsk airport is STILL in UA hands. Long live the Donetsk airport cyborgs.



  16. #5156
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Reuters reporting on the exit poll. The Communists have lost all their seats and the only pro-Russian voice will be the Opposition Bloc with 7.8%. Poroshenko and the Peoples Front are on 23% and 21% respectively, Self-Help (pro-EU) on 13% with Tymoshenko's Fatherland party on 5.6%, Svoboda on 6.3%.

    Expect Russia to diss the results just as it traditionally does when it doesn't go their way. To this day they reject the election of Yuschenko in 2004 after failing to derail it with polonium poisoning that scarred his face.
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  17. #5157
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geronimo2006 View Post
    Reuters reporting on the exit poll. The Communists have lost all their seats and the only pro-Russian voice will be the Opposition Bloc with 7.8%. Poroshenko and the Peoples Front are on 23% and 21% respectively, Self-Help (pro-EU) on 13% with Tymoshenko's Fatherland party on 5.6%, Svoboda on 6.3%.

    Expect Russia to diss the results just as it traditionally does when it doesn't go their way. To this day they reject the election of Yuschenko in 2004 after failing to derail it with polonium poisoning that scarred his face.
    Out of curiosity, how much of the country didn't participate in the elections?

  18. #5158

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geronimo2006 View Post

    Expect Russia to diss the results just as it traditionally does when it doesn't go their way. To this day they reject the election of Yuschenko in 2004 after failing to derail it with polonium poisoning that scarred his face.

    Inb4 "Source?"

    Other than that -- this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv39Lc5oSVs

    We bash the UA army that they shoot unarmed civillians, and bomb cities - true. But who is more guilty? The UA, or the separatists, who bomb the airport from behind the backs of - indeed - peacful population? Just the 0:42 part - "We are changing our positions, because there could be an answer" (referring to a counter-barrage).

    There is an another video, from the UA army this time - it shows Right sector artillery men shooting at a building from a field gun. My point is this: If we truly want to be objective, above all, we must condemn both parties - both UA army who are shelling the city - indeed (AFAIC) AND the separatists who hide behind the backs of innocents and bomb the UA army.

    As for may personal opinion: Go UA! Drive the vatniks back!


    @ Stavroforos: I heard that people came to vote, but that no records of would be broken (in regards to how many people came to vote). Cannot provide with a source yet.
    Last edited by Saint_of_Battle; October 26, 2014 at 04:01 PM. Reason: Response to Stavroforos



  19. #5159

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.


    It looks to me if the sepetarists would do this everyone would be freaked out.
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  20. #5160
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Stravoforus since you asked, the areas in green (Crimea) and Red (separatist/Russian control) did not take part - because their rulers refused to allow it.



    The separatists now admit most of their fighters are from Russia. They also admit ties to the Far Right in Russia.


    Quote Originally Posted by BBC
    For many of the pro-Russian rebels, both local and Russian volunteers, their political vision for the region is the creation of "Novorossia", a kind of new, improved Russia.

    "We are fighting for the liberation of all Russian lands and we are ready to march all the way to the Danube," says Alexander Matyushin, a rebel field commander.

    "We must restore the historic injustice which befell the Russian people in the 20th Century. We need to take land which is ours by right and bring it back into the fold of Holy Russia."...

    The rebels say they have 18,000 volunteer fighters, mostly from Russia, and that more are keen on joining.

    Several far-right organisations are involved in the online recruitment process.

    One of them is the Eurasian Movement, a far-right political group with an international reach, founded by ultra-nationalist philosopher Alexander Dugin.

    Close to the Ukrainian border, in the Russian city of Rostov, one of Dugin's Eurasian activists, Mikhail Uchitel, is working with Russian volunteer fighters who have been signed up online in preparation for their journey into Ukraine.

    Although the recruitment process is taking place in Russia, Mr Uchitel is adamant that the rebels do not answer to Moscow.
    And in case you think Dugin is a marginal figure - he is one of the authors of the book "The Foundations of Geopolitics" which is used in Russian military academies.
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