Thread: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

  1. #4161

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangalore View Post
    And what do we discuss? How to chop up the Ukraine and the Baltic states? To accept spheres of influence against a third country's wishes? To just handwave gross violations of European agreements meant to assure peace in Europe? Tolerate the abandonment of democratic principles and the rule of law?
    How not to support Nazis or undemocratic coups? It's not like we are immune from criticism. As for abandonment of democratic principles... well wow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mangalore View Post
    Sure, keep communication channels open but it's Putin who turned this into an escalation of actions and destroyed any basis for compromise.
    The riots started early this year. There was no secession until March. And it was anticipated anyways, the original referendum was supposed to be in April. The more America pushed for the coup, the more Putin took countermeasures. This is not something he started.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mangalore View Post
    If this were the 19th or early 20th century as Putin seems to think we would have the second Crimean War for months now already, no questions asked by anyone. We don't and we won't but some level of action must be put forward as an equal reaction to Putin's use of force to facilizate a discussion.
    How about this: stop behaving like Russia is an evil aggressor, because the last time I checked, every single one of their moves was a counter to American ones. See Georgia, see the Orange-cough-American funded-cough revolution and so on.
    Then I can assure you Russia will be more cooperative itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geronimo2006 View Post
    If anything Obama is the least warlike US President since Carter. Russia blames revolutions on the US. But ultimately to get millions on the street there has to be popular support for revolution. BBC reported there were 800,000 on the streets of Kiev during Maidan. Putin has to smear Maidan as a "fascist coup", despite it being a democratic revolution. Yanukovych may have been elected but that was on a platform of pursuing European integration - which the Customs Union would have violated. He was also extremely corrupt, making Ukraine 147th on the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index. The Kremlin also blamed the CIA for the Prague Spring despite a KGB agent Oleg Kalugin discovering documents in Washington that disproved this (which were suppressed).
    Lybia, Egypt, Syria, Ukraine.
    Just because he didn't send the Marines doesn't mean America is inactive. Quite the opposite. Obama's record is far worse than Bush.
    You can't deny the CIA is present in each one of those countries and none of us can say the degree of their involvement because, well, it's a secret agency after all. The presence alone is enough to make America guilty.

    As for Yanukovich being corrupt, Poroschenko isn't better. Nor is Yatseniuk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post
    ----

    Sometimes I'm honestly wondering what kind of ideal world some people are imagining. Does anyone honestly want to live in a time in which Russia dominates Eastern Europe, laughs at its countries' sovereignty, tramples the rights of the people there while the rest of Europe turns a blind eye as long as they get cheap gas? Do we really need to return to the 18th century or 1939 partition of Poland times? You give us gas, we give you your "rightful place" as a wannabe-superpower?

    Does anyone seriously want that? It's mind boggling to me.

    And btw, despite your ridiculous accusations, I'm not American. Not even close.
    I said it once months ago and I'll say it again. The idea of Russia steamrolling Eastern Europe and annexing one country after the other is retarded. There is absolutely nothing suggesting this that is not fiction books or blatant propaganda.
    If this was even remotely true, Belarus, Georgia and Ukraine would be already part of Russia. It is not and therefore not worthy discussing.

    And if Russia is to be sanctioned for annexing Crimea, what kind of sanctions we should introduce on the US for invading and destroying Iraq?
    By the same measure, a total ban on trade would be the minimum.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; September 09, 2014 at 03:42 PM.

  2. #4162

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    There seems to be this retarded preconception that everything the USA and the west does is for democracy, freedom and human rights and so on just because they are liberal democracies. Well, guess what, every state has interests and any competent government will prioritize them above moral concerns. Just look at the west's attitude towards the eastern protests in Ukraine: They were first ignored, and then condemned when it blew up in their faces and turned into a rebellion, despite the fact that the democratic thing to do would be to accept their calls for referendums and votes and call for an inclusive government in Kiev.

    So sure, Russian foreign policy breaks international law and moral principles, but who doesn't? I mean, due to all the coups and cold war anti-Communists intelligence operations South American nations are hostile to the US now exactly like Poland and the Baltics with Russia, the west split off Kosovo (which was against international law), supported some Arab spring movements while opposing others, performed acts of unprovoked aggressions against multiple countries and so on. Whining about how imperialist Russia is while pretending the EU and the US are the good guys is quite simply a result of naivety, lack of empathy and a failure to separate truth from propaganda.

  3. #4163

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    I said it once months ago and I'll say it again. The idea of Russia steamrolling Eastern Europe and annexing one country after the other is retarded. There is absolutely nothing suggesting this that is not fiction books or blatant propaganda.
    Complete lack of an argument, just a string of words without a meaning "retarded", "nothing", "fiction", "propaganda". Get back to me once you have a point to make.

    If this was even remotely true, Belarus, Georgia and Ukraine would be already part of Russia. It is not and therefore not worthy discussing.
    Belarus is essentially owned by Russia as is.

    Georgia? Wait, whatever happened to A. and S.O.? And before you give me the "Georgia attacked S.O. first in 2008" nonsense -- why were there Russian troops in the first place? What's it with Russia de facto occupying several regions in multiple countries in eastern Europe, including T. in Moldova?

    Ukraine? Wait, have you been following the news? Till early 2014, Ukraine was de facto mostly (some short interruptions only) controlled by Russia via its proxies. Once that ended due to the Maidan revolution, guess what happened?

    Are you honestly gonna tell me that if NATO disbanded and the US withdrew from Europe, we wouldn't within 5 years see Crimea-style green men in the Baltics and/or orchestrated "rebels" who coincidentally have a large supply of weapons and ammo? Really? Lol.

    Without NATO protection, Russia might not outright steamroll Eastern Europe. But what they would do without doubt is do everything to dominate its neighbours short of an official invasion. Oh wait -- that's exactly what's happening in Ukraine right now! Oh wait -- what's the difference between the Baltics and Ukraine again? Yeah, only Ukraine has Russian minorities.

    Wait a minute... that's not it.

    And if Russia is to be sanctioned for annexing Crimea, what kind of sanctions we should introduce on the US for invading and destroying Iraq?
    By the same measure, a total ban on trade would be the minimum.
    Whataboutism, boring. Try harder.
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  4. #4164
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post
    Russia stops the gas flow = Europe has low gas supply for a few months, Russia is bankrupt by 2015. Good deal!
    I enjoy reading about how much you care about the suffering of the poor, or rather, how you have no problem sacrificing them for some jingoistic anti-Russian venture.

  5. #4165

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post
    It helps if you read a conversation before jumping in.

    Basil made the ridiculous claim that Europe is essentially at Russia's mercy this winter due to Russia's ability to stop the gas flow ("burn euro notes for warmth") and I pointed out how outlandish that proposition is.
    And, as I said, in several years, after proper infrastructure is built, Russia will be able to export resources to the east with the same capacity.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElvenKind View Post
    Where is the smoke trail from a BUK missile launch?
    Or the recordings of conversations between dispatcher and the pilots. Or data from the black box. Instead of all that, the only evidence that supports Obama's narrative are "anonymous eyewitnesses".

  6. #4166

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Basile, I, for one, love the "OMG PUTIN IS LIKE HITLER REINCARNATED!!!!! HE'S INVADING COUNTRIES!!!!! HE'S FUNDING TERRORISTS!!!! WHO DOES THAT IN THAT 21ST CENTURY???!!!!!" reactions. Absolute class.

    The reality is that Russia is a major trade partner for most european countries, sits over all the natural resources that european economy needs and poses no existential threat whatsoever. They are a natural strategic partner for the EU. America stands only to gain by blocking the strengthening of our economic and political ties, by pushing european countries into rearming and thus revitalising their industrial-military complex, by forcing the way of the shale gas and coal into the european energy market, by imposing the TTIP on their terms. The economic sanctions having a far larger impact on both European and Russian economies than the insignificant trade volume between Russia and the USA is just the cherry on the top. Or perhaps getting another Nato military base along Russia's borders is. At any rate, this entire affair is as much about the EU as it is about Russia. The Americans just need to beat our head below the parapet before they shift their attention back to east Asia, where a real contender lies.

    Oh wait -- what's the difference between the Baltics and Ukraine again?
    In Ukraine the EU backed a coup against a democratically elected presidented that enjoyed widespread support in half the country, a coup which was spearheaded by armed Neonazis, who had been receiving training on Polish soil in the past. These radical elements are only too glad to kill Russians or Russophones, sometimes as brutally as burning them alive, and given positions of authority in the government as well as forming battalions and receiving offices in the higher echelons of military command, they have all the means at their disposal to do so.
    Unless the Baltic nations also find themselves in the mood for massacring their Russian minorities, they won't be facing an (half-arsed) invasion anytime soon.
    Last edited by Timoleon of Korinthos; September 09, 2014 at 05:02 PM.

  7. #4167
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikitn View Post
    There seems to be this retarded preconception that everything the USA and the west does is for democracy, freedom and human rights and so on just because they are liberal democracies. Well, guess what, every state has interests and any competent government will prioritize them above moral concerns. Just look at the west's attitude towards the eastern protests in Ukraine: They were first ignored, and then condemned when it blew up in their faces and turned into a rebellion, despite the fact that the democratic thing to do would be to accept their calls for referendums and votes and call for an inclusive government in Kiev.

    So sure, Russian foreign policy breaks international law and moral principles, but who doesn't? I mean, due to all the coups and cold war anti-Communists intelligence operations South American nations are hostile to the US now exactly like Poland and the Baltics with Russia, the west split off Kosovo (which was against international law), supported some Arab spring movements while opposing others, performed acts of unprovoked aggressions against multiple countries and so on. Whining about how imperialist Russia is while pretending the EU and the US are the good guys is quite simply a result of naivety, lack of empathy and a failure to separate truth from propaganda.
    Context is everything. Yes the West split off Kosovo. Because the people were being massacred. I remember stories from refugees of pregnant women having their stomachs cut open. Rumour or not, the Serbs killed thousands and crucially - we already saw Milosevic's savagery in Bosnia and Croatia where genocide undoubtedly occurred including at Srebrenica. And before someone tries to deny it or say it was exaggerated - over 6000 DNA matches have been made of the remains. Russians need to de-programme themselves from 70 years of anti-American brainwashing by the Soviets and Putin. His media are saying the most outrageous things about Ukraine and it's all fake.

    You think Ukraine is bad? What about the 8000 killed in a matter of days in Srebrenica. Where was Russia's condemnation of those events? Why the double standards? Compared to that, a combined 2500 dead for combattants and non-combattants in 6 months is hardly "fascist". In the same period in Operation Barbarossa over 1 million had been killed. This is a democratically elected government fighting subversives armed and trained by Russia. Any country would use force to take control of its territory back from rebels. Russia should know this as it HAS done this in Chechnya - at far higher loss of life. Ask the people of Grozny what happened to their city in the 1990s.

    And for the umpteenth time - Russia agreed to the Libyan intervention at the UNSC.

    Can you imagine these kinds of threats to Russia by the West? The Russias are talking about pre-emptive nuclear strikes (!) and declaring the US and NATO as "enemies" despite most of their trade being with them. Clearly a huge risk to take for the sake of asserting feudal overlordship over Ukraine.

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    Last edited by Geronimo2006; September 09, 2014 at 04:40 PM.
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  8. #4168

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post

    Belarus is essentially owned by Russia as is.

    Georgia? Wait, whatever happened to A. and S.O.? And before you give me the "Georgia attacked S.O. first in 2008" nonsense -- why were there Russian troops in the first place? What's it with Russia de facto occupying several regions in multiple countries in eastern Europe, including T. in Moldova?

    Ukraine? Wait, have you been following the news? Till early 2014, Ukraine was de facto mostly (some short interruptions only) controlled by Russia via its proxies. Once that ended due to the Maidan revolution, guess what happened?

    Are you honestly gonna tell me that if NATO disbanded and the US withdrew from Europe, we wouldn't within 5 years see Crimea-style green men in the Baltics and/or orchestrated "rebels" who coincidentally have a large supply of weapons and ammo? Really? Lol.

    Without NATO protection, Russia might not outright steamroll Eastern Europe. But what they would do without doubt is do everything to dominate its neighbours short of an official invasion. Oh wait -- that's exactly what's happening in Ukraine right now! Oh wait -- what's the difference between the Baltics and Ukraine again? Yeah, only Ukraine has Russian minorities.
    Evidence missing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post
    Whataboutism, boring. Try harder.
    Yeah, except that the American destruction of Iraq is a fact, while Russian threat to Europe a theory.
    Once again, we should ignore or be fine with America destroying whichever country it wants, but when Russian peacefully annexes a piece of itself.... ooooooooooooh the horror.
    Also we should debate fiction, not facts.

    As for calling your arguments retarded, you are willing to sacrifice the already weak European economies to supposedly destroy Russia. Please enlighten me how should I describe your plan to reduce in poverty 500 million people in better words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    Basile, I, for one, love the "OMG PUTIN IS LIKE HITLER REINCARNATED!!!!! HE'S INVADING COUNTRIES!!!!! HE'S FUNDING TERRORISTS!!!! WHO DOES THAT IN THAT 21ST CENTURY???!!!!!" reactions. Absolute class.

    The reality is that Russia is a major trade partner for most european countries, sits over all the natural resources that european economy needs and poses no existential threat whatsoever. They are a natural strategic partner for the EU. America stands only to gain by blocking the strengthening of our economic and political ties, by pushing european countries into rearming and thus revitalising their industrial-military complex, by forcing the way of the shale gas and coal into the european energy market, by imposing the TTIP on their terms. The economic sanctions having a far larger impact on both European and Russian economies than the insignificant trade volume between Russia and the USA is just the cherry on the top. Or perhaps getting another Nato military base along Russia's borders is. At any rate, this entire affair is as much about the EU as it is about Russia. The Americans just need to beat our head below the parapet before they shift their attention back to east Asia, where a real contender lies.


    In Ukraine the EU backed a coup against a democratically elected presidented that enjoyed widespread support in half the country, a coup which was spearheaded by armed Neonazis, who had been receiving training on Polish soil in the past. These radical elements are only too glad to kill Russians or Russophones, sometimes as brutally as burning them alive, and given positions of authority in the government as well as forming battalions and receiving offices in the higher echelons of command, they have all the means at their disposal to do so.
    Unless the Baltic nations also find themselves in the mood for massacring their Russian minorities, they won't be facing an (half-arsed) invasion anytime soon.
    The only good side of us going bankrupt over this, is that America will lose a good part of their grasp on European politicians.
    The large majority of protest parties all agree in withdrawing from NATO missions around the world and that the whole trade war thing is retarded.

  9. #4169

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Context is everything. Yes the West split off Kosovo. Because the people were being massacred.
    Ah, so people getting massacred was the reason for creating a state run by mafia and warlords that has in turned launched a campaign of ethnic cleansing of its own, unopposed. And here was I thinking that the Americans coveted their soon to be largest military base in the Balkans. So why didn't the West intervene in Rwanda? People were getting massacred there as well. Not by the thousands, by the hundreds of thousands.

    Since we are in a history-related forum, I would suggest that you read up on your Thukidides, the causes and pretexes for going to war bit.

    The only good side of us going bankrupt over this, is that America will lose a good part of their grasp on European politicians.
    The large majority of protest parties all agree in withdrawing from NATO missions around the world and that the whole trade war thing is retarded.
    Never going to happen. As long as they control us militarily, they can dictate our policies. Prepare for the further ruination of the italian industry, my dear.
    Last edited by Timoleon of Korinthos; September 09, 2014 at 05:00 PM.
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  10. #4170

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Evidence missing.
    Denying reality? How cute. Buy a good history book, time period 1991-2014.


    Yeah, except that the American destruction of Iraq is a fact, while Russian threat to Europe a theory.
    Once again, we should ignore or be fine with America destroying whichever country it wants, but when Russian peacefully annexes a piece of itself.... ooooooooooooh the horror.
    Also we should debate fiction, not facts.
    Whataboutism.

    Are you ever going to post anything but noise here?

    "retarded", "fiction"? Any argument to be had from you? Or will you just continue trolling ad absurdum?

    I've already debunked your ridiculous "burn euro notes for warmth this winter b/c powerful Russia stops the gas flow" fairly tale. Got more nonsense, buddy?

    As for calling your arguments retarded, you are willing to sacrifice the already weak European economies to supposedly destroy Russia. Please enlighten me how should I describe your plan to reduce in poverty 500 million people in better words.
    Haha, you were the one who came up with the "Russia could just stop the gas flow and own us" fairy tale. Boooring.
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  11. #4171
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    Ah, so people getting massacred was the reason for creating a state run by mafia and warlords that has in turned launched a campaign of ethnic cleansing of its own, unopposed. And here was I thinking that the Americans coveted their soon to be largest military base in the Balkans. So why didn't the West intervene in Rwanda? People were getting massacred there as well. Not by the thousands, by the hundreds of thousands.

    Since we are in a history-related forum, I would advise you to read up on your Thukidides, the causes and pretexes for going to war bit.
    Tim, don't bother. Most of these guys think Europe is, was, and always will be awesome and not doing anything wrong or never having double standards.

  12. #4172

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post
    Denying reality? How cute. Buy a good history book, time period 1991-2014.


    Whataboutism.

    Are you ever going to post anything but noise here?

    "retarded", "fiction"? Any argument to be had from you? Or will you just continue trolling ad absurdum?

    I've already debunked your ridiculous "burn euro notes for warmth this winter b/c powerful Russia stops the gas flow" fairly tale. Got more nonsense, buddy?
    Debunked? How exactly? Geronimo already posted the study suggesting our gas reserves could last 9 months max.... unless there's a very cold week. In winter. I think we'll be very surprised when that happens. Should we? We are in the retarded realm after all, since you have clearly and undenyably debunked this.
    Oh btw, Finland and Poland who can't last a month. Seriously, who the cares when we bankrupt Russia?
    Once again, retarded and disgustingly evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post
    Haha, you were the one who came up with the "Russia could just stop the gas flow and own us" fairy tale. Boooring.
    Talking about denying reality...

  13. #4173

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    So why didn't the West intervene in Rwanda? People were getting massacred there as well. Not by the thousands, by the hundreds of thousands.
    This must be the worst ing argument ever, a la "we can't save everyone, so we might as well not do anything at all" or "we didn't do anything when X happened, so now we must never do anything in the future, either".

    Newsflash: preventing genocide is a good thing, even if you don't prevent every other genocide as well. That's a freaking no-brainer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Debunked? How exactly? Geronimo already posted the study suggesting our gas reserves could last 9 months max.... unless there's a very cold week. In winter. I think we'll be very surprised when that happens. Should we? We are in the retarded realm after all, since you have clearly and undenyably debunked this.
    Oh btw, Finland and Poland who can't last a month. Seriously, who the cares when we bankrupt Russia?
    Once again, retarded and disgustingly evil.


    Talking about denying reality...
    You are making up, it's pathetic. Show some evidence for Russia stopping the gas flow to Europe for the whole winter of 2014. Counter argument: they would never do it because it would be suicide for them.
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  14. #4174

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Then why support the genocide of Russians in Ukraine by Nazis?

  15. #4175
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    I think someone has been watching too much Russia Today. What genocide again?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  16. #4176

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    I'm still waiting for you evidence:

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    EU sanctions to hit Gazprom, Rosneft and Transneft. I guess will burn euros to warm ourselves this winter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post
    You are making up, it's pathetic. Show some evidence for Russia stopping the gas flow to Europe for the whole winter of 2014. Counter argument: they would never do it because it would be suicide for them.
    Genocide in Ukraine -- yeah right, lolz. Sovereign democracy defending itself against armed insurgents supplied by the neighbouring country = genocide. What's next, you calling the US attacks on IS "genocide" on the poor radical islamists?
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  17. #4177

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Newsflash: preventing genocide is a good thing, even if you don't prevent every other genocide as well. That's a freaking no-brainer.
    Yes, it's a good thing, but a good thing not done consistently because the goodness of it is only used as a pretext for intervening only when there are ulterior motives at play, which are the actual causes for intervention. That's a no-brainer as well, except one that idiots who confuse causes and pretexes struggle to come to grips with.


    On the question of what happens if Russia cuts off gas supply.

    1)Data on the EU
    The EU imports 161.5bcm natural gas from Russia annually. This amount corresponds to 23% of our imports. Our imports cover 67% of the consumption of natural gas. Natural gas represents 23% in the mix of the total primary energy supply in the EU
    http://www.naturalgaseurope.com/a-po...european-union
    http://www.eurogas.org/uploads/media...eport_2013.pdf

    At the moment, the EU
    - has 36 bcm in reserves
    - can import another 10bcm from Norway in the short run
    - can import another 10bcm from Qatar as LNG in the short run
    http://www.economist.com/news/briefi...ence-russia...

    Consequently, a Russian ban on gas exports means for us:
    (161.5-36-10-10)/(161.5/0.23/0.67)*23% = 2.32% reduction in energy consumption


    2)Data on Russia
    81% of the Russian gas exports are absorbed by the EU (the remainder from Turkey).
    http://www.eia.gov/countries/cab.cfm?fips=rs

    Russian exports in 2013 amounted to: $73bn natural gas, $109bn petrochemicals, $174bn crude oil, $171bn other goods and services.
    http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=17231

    Exports correspond to 28% of the Russian GDP.
    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.EXP.GNFS.ZS

    Therefore, a ban on gas means for them:
    73*0.81/(101+73+174+171)*0.28% = 3.19% shrinkage of the GDP


    I don't think they would risk it, because the blow would be huge for them, but if they do, as the Russians are accustomed to belt-tightening and Putin is more or less a very popular autocrat at the moment, we will be hit severely as well. My country harder than the average.
    Last edited by Timoleon of Korinthos; September 09, 2014 at 05:44 PM.
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  18. #4178
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post
    Genocide in Ukraine -- yeah right, lolz. Sovereign democracy defending itself against armed insurgents supplied by the neighbouring country = genocide. What's next, you calling the US attacks on IS "genocide" on the poor radical islamists?
    No, it's not, but I call what US have done in Ukraine with its actual name: Defeat.

    Lulz!

  19. #4179

    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post

    Genocide in Ukraine -- yeah right, lolz. Sovereign democracy defending itself against armed insurgents supplied by the neighbouring country = genocide. What's next, you calling the US attacks on IS "genocide" on the poor radical islamists?
    What part of having a government imposed by violent rioters and Nazis in the street against a democratically elected one (the irony) is ''democratic''? And what part of ''suppoted by the USA'' does not violate Ukraine sovereignity?

    As for the Russian counter-sanctions. It seems like Europe has already changed their minds and is not even sure anymore if it's the case to sanction Rosneft, Gazprom and Rosneft, so yeah.. why should Russia act first? Oh wait that's just in your fictional scenario of Russia being the aggressor, when in reality Russia is just reacting to the American one.
    Nice job though, to ''debunk'' my argument your raped your own Evil Russia fiction.
    Regardless, what do you think is going to happen when the EU sanctions the big 3?

  20. #4180
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    Default Re: Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Then why support the genocide of Russians in Ukraine by Nazis?
    2500 out of 8.5 million Donbass resident's in 6 months hardly constitutes "genocide". Especially when maybe two-thirds of them are fighters.

    What part of having a government imposed by violent rioters and Nazis in the street against a democratically elected one (the irony) is ''democratic''? And what part of ''suppoted by the USA'' does not violate Ukraine sovereignity?
    99% of them were democrats not Nazis. Yanukovych fled the country. Russia refused to co-sign the powersharing deal that the US and EU signed with the government and the Opposition on February 22nd. Then when he fled, Churkin at the UN demanded the reinstatement of the deal. It's called having it both ways. Like Putin endorsing Sisi for the Egyptian presidency.

    Yanukovych by all accounts was extremely corrupt. He was elected on a platform of integrating with Europe. He then broke his word by signing up to the Customs Union. We are living in a world where even if you are elected, the people will sometimes remove you if you overstep your mandate. The Poroshenko victory shows the people were behind Maidan.

    I mean "Nazis"? Seriously? The Nazis killed millions of people. Get over yourself. You're watching too much RT.
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; September 09, 2014 at 06:07 PM.
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    Colonialism 1600 AD blog

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