Ukraine and Russia Developments. Version 2.

[Stavroforos]

Appearantly the EU's/NATO's endeavour to expand into the Russian sphere of influence is worth a highly dangerous trade war.

Yeah, and apparently they haven't realized that Russia won't respond to sanctions, but they're willing to jeopardize the economies of Russia and the EU just to show that they're standing strong.

[Treize]

Yeah, and apparently they haven't realized that Russia won't respond to sanctions, but they're willing to jeopardize the economies of Russia and the EU just to show that they're standing strong.

Well clearly they don't.

[nemgod]

Yes because Putin's kind of people don't stop until someone stops them. As a European I am very concerned at the resurgence of authoritarianism in Europe sponsored by Russia and the threat it poses to Eastern Europe in particular. The human rights situation inside Russia is also horrifying. I read just now that the Soviet-era political abuse of psychiatry is returning, with "delusions of reformism" and "sluggish schizophrenia" being diagnosed for dissidents who are treated with Sulpiride. I don't understand why Russians accept such restrictions on their personal freedom. And I understand perfectly well why Ukrainians refused to.

There is also growing evidence the regime may have murdered Lech Kazscynski (Polish President). Traces of TNT have been found at the crash site. The craft has still not been turned over to the Poles 4 years later.

So it is ok to support a group of people that betrayed you because "putin" is that what you are saying. The fact that the three sides (EU, Maiden, Yano) made an agreement and it was betrayed by Maiden means that we should not life one finger to help them or their allies that became the Ukrainian president. To do so is to say no paper we sign is worth the ink it is written with. Both sides need to be clamped down not just one over the other.

[Akrotatos]

În spite of Putin's troll army efforts and in spite of the initial successes of the Russian invasion the story can end in only one way for Russia. Economic ruin and further loss of territory.

You need to do a reality-check mate, you have gone a bit crazy. Ukrainian army can not defeat a bunch of militia, do you really think that if the Russian army invaded they would have "initial successes"? The recent rebel success come from the fact that Ukrainian soldiers bought on the hysteria that "ze Russians are coming" and started running/surrendering en masse.

And while economic troubles do seem to be Russia's future, I would like to know how on earth are they going to lose territory, considering they have a massive army and nuclear weapons.

[Dromikaites]

What territory they have lost?

Central Asia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia and the Baltics.

What territory will they lose?

The Caucasus and Siberia.

Are you desperate to see Russia destroyed?

Nope!

I'm interested in seeing Russia integrated in the EU and NATO. The Russians themselves want that to happen the hard way, with pieces of the federation being integrated one by one.

But how can Russia face economic ruin when it has the resources the West doesn't have?

The same way the Soviet Union did. By overspending on its military and being dragged into proxy wars against the West, while being subjected to economic sanctions and technology embargoes.

As for the resources the West doesn't have, they are the prize the West is after.

Good news! Russia is saying it is prepared to send peace keepers to Ukraine. It is about time someone will do something to stop the Kiev Junta's massacre on civilians:
http://rt.com/politics/183644-russia...epers-ukraine/

Basil II the B.S. thought he was trolling me last week when he was asking where's my allegedly predicted Russian invasion.

I had to remind him I wished for a Russian invasion but I had given it 50% chance of happening. I also told him that I feared Putin won't invade after all, and thus he would delay the collapse of the Russian Federation.

Luckily for the Russian nation, Putin is now accelerating the demise of the country, which means those Russians left alive when Cold War 2 is over would finally get to enjoy the benefits of democracy.

So yes, count me among those who cheer for Russian peacekeepers. The more wooden boxes return to Mother Russia, the better for the remaining of the Russian population.

[Akrotatos]

Cool story Dromikaites

[Mangalore]

Yeah, and apparently they haven't realized that Russia won't respond to sanctions, but they're willing to jeopardize the economies of Russia and the EU just to show that they're standing strong.

I have to wonder how Europe prospered during the cold war when Russia was so essential? I mean, yes, it will take a chunk out of Europe's economic growth but somehow the western World didn't shrivel to bits when the Iron Curtain was up.

Also what is your suggestion then? I find most critics of appeasement flawed but what is true is that you should never appease the other side from a weak position as apeasement at first weakens your position further and leads to false conclusion on the other side that they have intimidated you into not acting. That is a more dangerous path than acting now by standing strong and it not ending in a bang when Putin oversteps a red line he didn't see because he takes appeasement as weakness.

[Sire Brenshar]

More to the point we should be asking ourselves why trade with an unpredictable partner like Russia at all? One which has shown to have extremely poor economic and long term judgments, who to top it off might just suddenly invent reasons to invade you and send your country into a bloody chaos and civil war.

Many years from now I think there'll be little disagreement that Ukraine made all the right choices, through risking their catastrophic short term relationship with Russia for a chance of long term security and independence. And of course eventual economic flourishing, but I get it that financial welfare is frowned upon in despotic societies, so maybe its not fair to say that till they actually get there.

[Stavroforos]

I have to wonder how Europe prospered during the cold war when Russia was so essential? I mean, yes, it will take a chunk out of Europe's economic growth but somehow the western World didn't shrivel to bits when the Iron Curtain was up.

Europe's prosperity in the Cold War had much less to do with Russia than Europe's present prosperity does. And the point is, why should economic growth have a chunk taken out of?

Also what is your suggestion then? I find most critics of appeasement flawed but what is true is that you should never appease the other side from a weak position as apeasement at first weakens your position further and leads to false conclusion on the other side that they have intimidated you into not acting. That is a more dangerous path than acting now by standing strong and it not ending in a bang when Putin oversteps a red line he didn't see because he takes appeasement as weakness.

Europe isn't standing strong, since economic sanctions which won't change Putin's actions aren't going to deter him. I don't care if Russia takes over all of Ukraine, since I don't give a crap about the Ukrainians or the Russians. What I care about is that my country isn't dragged back down another economic disaster thanks to the US and EU.

[Dromikaites]

What I care about is that my country isn't dragged back down another economic disaster thanks to the US and EU.

Your country (Greece) was dragged into that economic disaster by the Greek politicians.

Just like my country (Romania) which is much richer in natural resources than Greece, has a much larger industrial base and is twice as populous has a lower GDP than Greece because it is mismanaged by the Romanian politicians.

The EU forcing Russia into an economic collapse or kissing Russia's butt (like Putin's mouthpieces want) won't make the Greek or Romanian politicians to steal less or manage our countries better.

No matter what the EU or the US decide to do to Russia, the well being of the EU citizens would depend more on how their countries are managed internally than wether they trade or not with Russia.

As it has been pointed out before, trading with Russia wasn't a priority for the West during the Cold War, and still the West crushed and dismantled the Russian empire.

[Sire Brenshar]

Europe isn't standing strong, since economic sanctions which won't change Putin's actions aren't going to deter him. I don't care if Russia takes over all of Ukraine, since I don't give a crap about the Ukrainians or the Russians. What I care about is that my country isn't dragged back down another economic disaster thanks to the US and EU.

That's very short sighted, which is why no government in the EU actually retained from taking economic action against Russia. They know what they have to do.

But whether you like it or not the Ukrainian crises was always going to affect the rest of Europe financially. Adding sanctions to the mix more than anything just gives Europe a voice when it all ends, since I guess you don't care about ending the crises earlier without bloodshed.

And how would you know for sure sanctions aren't deterring Putin? Perhaps he meant to commit to a much more widespread invasion than the mere couple thousand now operating in Ukraine, but he was held back over the risk of an EU response? What if because the EU was silent Putin decided he could for example cut the gas lines for just few weeks to improve his leverage over Ukraine, what kind of action to avert economic disaster would you recommend then?

[Stavroforos]

Your country (Greece) was dragged into that economic disaster by the Greek politicians.

Just like my country (Romania) which is much richer in natural resources than Greece, has a much larger industrial base and is twice as populous has a lower GDP than Greece because it is mismanaged by the Romanian politicians.

The EU forcing Russia into an economic collapse or kissing Russia's butt (like Putin's mouthpieces want) won't make the Greek or Romanian politicians to steal less or manage our countries better.

No matter what the EU or the US decide to do to Russia, the well being of the EU citizens would expend more on how their countries are managed internally than wether they trade or not with Russia.

As it has been pointed out before, trading with Russia wasn't a priority for the West during the Cold War, and still the West crushed and dismantled the Russian empire.

Whether Greek politicians steal or mismanage isn't the problem if the Eurozone economies shrink due to trade wars with Russia.

That's very short sighted, which is why no government in the EU actually retained from taking economic action against Russia. They know what they have to do.

But whether you like it or not the Ukrainian crises was always going to affect the rest of Europe financially. Adding sanctions to the mix more than anything just gives Europe a voice when it all ends, since I guess you don't care about ending the crises earlier without bloodshed.

And how would you know for sure sanctions aren't deterring Putin? Perhaps he meant to commit to a much more widespread invasion than the mere couple thousand now operating in Ukraine, but he was held back over the risk of an EU response? What if because the EU was silent Putin decided he could for example cut the gas lines for just few weeks to improve his leverage over Ukraine, what kind of action to avert economic disaster would you recommend then?

It's not shortsighted. Greece has been in a worse economic crisis than the Great Depression since 2009, I don't care for extending it even longer due to EU long-term goals.

Sanctions might be deterring him from taking further actions, but they're not going to force him to give up what he's already taken (Crimea). Perhaps he will be the sane one and de-escalate the conflict before it hurts both economies, but I don't see that happening any more than I see Europeans backing down.

[Sire Brenshar]

It's not shortsighted. Greece has been in a worse economic crisis than the Great Depression since 2009, I don't care for extending it even longer due to EU long-term goals.

Sanctions might be deterring him from taking further actions, but they're not going to force him to give up what he's already taken (Crimea). Perhaps he will be the sane one and de-escalate the conflict before it hurts both economies, but I don't see that happening any more than I see Europeans backing down.

It is indeed short sighted, because none of us can for sure say how the crises will develop. There may be a time yet where the EU can use its existing sanctions as bargaining chips and if the issue of energy supply comes about you will not want to be empty handed. And again what makes you think Putin will hold on to Crimea for sure? He might not, but he definitely will if there's nothing we can do about it. Who's to say a return of a Crimea to Ukraine, under full autonomy perhaps, may not be on the table in the future if Russia runs into very grave problems.

I could almost relate if Greece wasn't in the EU, and didn't have to treat aggregate EU security as a serious issue, but that ship has sailed long ago now. Greece made its choice to stick with the EU's lot and they can't turn back now (though naturally they at least have a voice in its decision making, and not a lone one either). But you've ended up showing that indeed your world view is rather selfish and Greek-centric, which we did discuss earlier already didn't we.

[Stavroforos]

It is indeed short sighted, because none of us can for sure say how the crises will develop. There may be a time yet where the EU can use its existing sanctions as bargaining chips and if the issue of energy supply comes about you will not want to be empty handed. And again what makes you think Putin will hold on to Crimea for sure? He might not, but he definitely will if there's nothing we can do about it. Who's to say a return of a Crimea to Ukraine, under full autonomy perhaps, may not be on the table in the future if Russia runs into very grave problems.

And why should I care about whether Russia keeps Crimea or not?

I could almost relate if Greece wasn't in the EU, and didn't have to treat aggregate EU security as a serious issue, but that ship has sailed long ago now. Greece made its choice to stick with the EU's lot and they can't turn back now (though naturally they at least have a voice in its decision making, and not a lone one either). But you've ended up showing that indeed your world view is rather selfish and Greek-centric, which we did discuss earlier already didn't we.

Why should I care about another country but the one I live and work in?

[Heathen Hammer]

Ukrainian POWs are allowed to go home.


A nice move, but they should have at least exchanged them for their own POWs. Plus I seriously doubt that Kiev is treating rebel prisoners well.

[Sire Brenshar]

And why should I care about whether Russia keeps Crimea or not?

It sounds like you did care a moment ago:

Sanctions might be deterring him from taking further actions, but they're not going to force him to give up what he's already taken (Crimea).

Or rather, you didn't care but you were raising the question of the point of the sanctions, since you believe that Putin will now never relinquish Crimea, to which hopefully I've just convinced you might not be the case.

I'd remind you these sanction exist as well because of for example how Russian trained and supplied systems downed a totally innocent and partial civilian flyer plane MH17. Is that not good enough evidence for you of why its in our interests to ensure a peace? Because you quite literally might get killed by the conflict? And Crimea will be central towards finding a lasting peace.

Putting aside the ambiguous moral arguments, there are also very pragmatic reasons why you as a (proud*) Greek national should care about Crimea: Crimea represents an area of friction between Russia and Ukraine. So long as Crimea is an unresolved issue even in times of peace there will remain the risk that the energy Greece so strongly depends on from Russia might not flow, if only temporarily.

Why should I care about another country but the one I live and work in?

The same reason I care as a Canadian resident in Quebec if Western US states make oil deals with China, Alberta, and BC. Because even something 500km away might affect me and my way of living.

If that isn't reason enough for you you are a fool.



*Don't take that badly that's merely my idea of a joke Lame or not.

[Stavroforos]

It sounds like you did care a moment ago:



Or rather, you didn't care but you were raising the question of the point of the sanctions, since you believe that Putin will now never relinquish Crimea, to which hopefully I've just convinced you might not be the case.

I'm questioning the point of the sanctions because I don't want them to harm Greece's economy further.

I'd remind you these sanction exist as well because of for example how Russian trained and supplied systems downed a totally innocent and partial civilian flyer plane MH17. Is that not good enough evidence for you of why its in our interests to ensure a peace? Because you quite literally might get killed by the conflict? And Crimea will be central towards finding a lasting peace.

A plane was shot down by someone in Ukraine, Russians, Pro-Russians, or Ukrainians. Don't see why that should affect me.

Putting aside the ambiguous moral arguments, there are also very pragmatic reasons why you as a (proud*) Greek national should care about Crimea: Crimea represents an area of friction between Russia and Ukraine. So long as Crimea is an unresolved issue even in times of peace there will remain the risk that the energy Greece so strongly depends on from Russia might not flow, if only temporarily.

And there's a greater risk that the energy won't flow if Europeans keep on imposing new sanctions.

The same reason I care as a Canadian resident in Quebec if Western US states make oil deals with China, Alberta, and BC. Because even something 500km away might affect me and my way of living.

If that isn't reason enough for you you are a fool.

The problem is that it actually won't affect you or your way of living to any significant degree.

*Don't take that badly that's merely my idea of a joke Lame or not.

Lol at least you clarified, or else I would have been up in arms for being considered a proud Greek.

[wulfgar610]

You need to do a reality-check mate, you have gone a bit crazy. Ukrainian army can not defeat a bunch of militia, do you really think that if the Russian army invaded they would have "initial successes"? The recent rebel success come from the fact that Ukrainian soldiers bought on the hysteria that "ze Russians are coming" and started running/surrendering en masse.

I think the Rebels by themselves were well on the way to losing. The Ukrainian army for all its deficiencies still had a far better level of organization and fielded much greater numbers than the Rebels along with air support. The failure of the Ukrainian army was moving far too slowly to quickly overwhelm the rebellion. What keeps the Rebellion alive is the manpower sent by Russia and even entire formations that are really just regular Russian military.

[Derpy Hooves]

So it is ok to support a group of people that betrayed you because "putin" is that what you are saying. The fact that the three sides (EU, Maiden, Yano) made an agreement and it was betrayed by Maiden means that we should not life one finger to help them or their allies that became the Ukrainian president. To do so is to say no paper we sign is worth the ink it is written with. Both sides need to be clamped down not just one over the other.

It was the president that broke the agreement, by fleeing, without notice, Kiev. It was after he had disappeared that Parliament​ made its move, not the Maidan.

[wulfgar610]

Central Asia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia and the Baltics.

I thought the Western Hyena's were saying Russia is an aggressive and expansionist power. How can they be that if they lost all this? But a few of those lost territories have join Russia's economic union. They have become client states.

The Caucasus and Siberia.

And how are they going to lose Siberia? As for the Caucasus some of the states are now client. Armenia has a Russian garrison because they trust everybody around them much less than they mistrust Russia. For them Russia is the lesser evil. The central Asian republics have decided the Russian's are the lesser evil than the Americans who tried to make inroads in the last decade.

Russia is certainly rebuilding its empire.