Razor's New Roman Army - in development

[Razor]

@Ramon Gonzales y Garcia: If you can give me the necessary textfiles with all Roman units deleted then I can implement mine. I'm really bad at scripting myself and I'd rather focus on the graphics (models and textures). I have no real problems adding them in but deleting units is kinda tricky for me as I constantly get errors.

Btw, I changed all Roman heavy infantrymen into spearmen with missles having the ability to form a shieldwall like they did in reality.
Plus I've made new models and textures for the Candidati (emperors bodyguard) and the Schola Palatina.
Both look like this (Candidati were picked from the Schola Palatina):

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

@Ramon Gonzales y Garcia: If you can give me the necessary textfiles with all Roman units deleted then I can implement mine. I'm really bad at scripting myself and I'd rather focus on the graphics (models and textures). I have no real problems adding them in but deleting units is kinda tricky for me as I constantly get errors.

wow! great looking units!
btw, I suggest substitution as a faster, safer process as building up from scratch will entail also rebuilding buildings, rebels, and descr_strat.
I could either
1)use the EDU and DMB u made w/ ur DL
2)use new EDU and DMB u make

I can also list down the current available units and u can specify w/c one replaces w/c

@overpopulation, I might release a quickfix soon - no new units yet (or at least just a few) but fixing rebellion and overpopulation

[Mylae]

i will likw to launch a little project.

a REALISTIC ROMAN ARMY for IBFD

since we're using the models of Attila Reloaded, i've noticed more than one time that they need to be perfectioned. Attila has done a great work, but since the mod is gettin more and more accurate, i will really like to insert some new units, like the razor's one - simply splendid. more than once i've tried to modify some simple texture stuff, but the .tga has some limits; for instance, to make the belt stuff was alost impossible because it wil repeat all over the belt.
helmets are nice, but in some models - i don't remember exactly what - they are larger :hmmm: and there should be something to fix because some of them looks partially transparent if looked in some view - i dunno if this bug has already been fixed. however, the Candidati unit looks not "better", but, in all respect, more accurate. it shows up that there was more time and more efforts in doing it.
Since AttilaReloaded has gone away, models has get under the great hands of RGyG. his models are great, and he is fast too in doing them.

but the Razor's one is simply astonishing; i've seen his models for Fall of Rome and they are alost exactly what i have in mind whan i think to late romans. henceforward, IF - and i will like to underline IF - Razor agree, some models could be revised by him, if he has enough time, to make them really perfect. the base models are since time nice, but i believe in human perfectibility.
the "modding list" will then be composed of:
1- searching model-texture bugs and killing them;
2- modifying the existing models in some feature (like, for example, giving them new belt; new helmets, distinguished in "classes" - i mean, a more elaborate helmet for elite units and officers, a simple one for normal levies; and other ideas)
3- modifying texture accordingly, inserting some new elements, like realistic photo-based faces (like they have do in chivalry), and new shield patterns based on the Notitia Dignitatum.
4- creating some new model to replace similar older ones.

the focus of the project will like to get an historical accountability - i mean, to renominate ALL roman units distinguishing them as they did in the Notitia Dignitatum.
so it means, for the field army: Limitanei, Pseudocomitatenses, Legiones Comitatenses, Auxilia Palatina and Legiones Palatinae; and inside them, almost each degree will have units of sagittari (bowmen), legionari (swordsmen), plumbatari, and lanceari (spearmen), with obvious exception: the general rule is that more heavy is the unit, more advanced will be his experience and degree in the army. maybe, via script, there could be the possibility to set the "iuniores" for levy units, and then turn their name to "seniores" when they get experience. i guess is not impossible. Special units will be the Scola
the cavalry will be divided into Vexillationes Comitatenses and Vexillationes Palatinae. inside, they could have units of equites sagittari (horse archers), Alae, Equites, Equites Scutarii, until the highest degree of Comites. Here and there should be created some "special unit", super-heavy, rare and of great valour: i mean Equites Catafractari, Equites Clibanari and the Scholae, whose commands have to fall under the Magister Officiorum. other regional-based special units will be the Equites Dromedari, Equites Illyriciani, Equites Mauri, Equites Parthi.

the artillery will be generally held by units of Ballistari; they will be ballistari (for the usage of the scorpion, renamed manuballista, with a higly reduced number of people in the group, since the it could be used by only one man); and ballistari gravis (for other heavy artillery).

the AttilaReloaded units are really nice, but lacks of a precise plan when he did them, because it was a sort of replacement for some faction here and there, who has take more and more fan and interest in it. for instance, a unit like the "comtatenses armatus" is great, but has no precise "collocation" in ordered units, if you understand what i mean; looks like a jolly.

what do you think?

you agree? you will like to reshape here and there something? Razor, i've seen your great stupp for Fall of Rome. i've seen that your efforts in modding are awesome, and so if you agree, i could elaborate a sort of list of changes. i'm ready to take some work about textures, if this bother you. i've seen, however, that most of the possible work is already been done for other models; there will be not but some copy-paste and adjusting here and there, and under my humbly supervision; i will like, in fact, to give you hints and a precise list of "what to do" about model-shaping.


WAITING FOR AN ANSWER. possibly via PM

[Razor]

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late Roman unitlist which I had in mind:

Infantry:

Sagittarii (Roughly two types of archers can be discerned. Unarmoured archers often used to garrison forts along the frontier and cities and armoured archers belonging to a central field army. They can be expected to be armoured since they meet the enemy in the field instead of standing on a wall of a massive fortress. However there seems to have been times that armour was scarse and that
armour was kept only for heavy infantry who needed it the most.)
Exploratores (specialised reconnaisance soldiers historically both mounted and unmounted)
Exculcatores (picked high morale heavy infantry soldiers equipped for light skirmish duties)
Milites (the 'lesser quality' footsoldiers of the Limitanei organised into 'Numeri'. Badly armoured compared to the central field army soldiers or not armoured at all and peasant-like folk but still trained.)
Auxilia Cohors (old remnant of an older army organisation, consisting of heavy infantry like the Legio but smaller)
Legio (a unit of standard heavy infantry of the central field armies having a spear, sword, and missle weapons like darts and javelins. Forget the Lanciarii and Plumbatarii units as different unit types because they weren't. The differences are just the name/nickname)
Auxilia Palatina (historically a unit specialised in both heavy infantry duties as well as skirmish duties. So almost impossible to implement in RTW, but for the convenience portrayed as a smaller legio (like in reality: Legio 1000-1200 men, Auxilia Palatina 800 men) with faster movement and light infantry javelins instead of darts. ok that's a detail, I admit.)
Legio Palatina (elite legionaries of the central field armies)

P.S. Possibly adding Excubitores as infantry guard unit. They were a guard unit instituted by the Eastern Roman emperor Leo in the 460-470 I believe as the Scholae Palatinae became less elite and less efficient in battle due to the inclusion of rich folks who bought a space in this elite unit but who were not capable fighters. However the total size of this unit was only 300 men so perhaps not of any significance to include.


Cavalry:

Ala/Equites/Equites Alae (old remnant from an older army organisation, consisting of soldiers similar to Equites Promoti, standard Roman medium cavalry)
Equites Armaturae (originally called "Equites Armaturae Leves" and obviously light skirmisher cavalry)
Equites Promoti (standard Roman medium cavalry)
Equites Sagittarii (not sure whether they should be armoured or not)
Equites Catafractarii (heavy armour but unarmoured horse with kontos/contus)
Equites Clibanarii (fully armoured horsemen including armoured horse with contus/kontos)


Guard units:

Equites Stablesiani
Equites Scutarii
Schola Palatina (consisting of mainly Germanic soldiers)

Candidati (General's unit consisting of chosen men from the Scholae Palatinae)


Catapults etc.:

Ballistae/Balistarii
Scorpiones/Manuballistae/Cheiroballistae/Manubalistarii
Onagri
Carroballistae (late Roman invention mentioned and visualised in De Rebus Bellicis)


========================================================================================================================================================

the focus of the project will like to get an historical accountability - i mean, to renominate ALL roman units distinguishing them as they did in the Notitia Dignitatum.
so it means, for the field army: Limitanei, Pseudocomitatenses, Legiones Comitatenses, Auxilia Palatina and Legiones Palatinae; and inside them, almost each degree will have units of sagittari (bowmen), legionari (swordsmen), plumbatari, and lanceari (spearmen), with obvious exception: the general rule is that more heavy is the unit, more advanced will be his experience and degree in the army. maybe, via script, there could be the possibility to set the "iuniores" for levy units, and then turn their name to
"seniores" when they get experience. i guess is not impossible. Special units will be the Scola
the cavalry will be divided into Vexillationes Comitatenses and Vexillationes Palatinae. inside, they could have units of equites sagittari (horse archers), Alae, Equites, Equites Scutarii, until the highest degree of Comites. Here and there should be created some "special unit", super-heavy, rare and of great valour: i mean Equites Catafractari, Equites Clibanari and the Scholae, whose commands have to fall under the Magister Officiorum. other regional-based special units will be the Equites Dromedari, Equites Illyriciani, Equites Mauri, Equites Parthi.

This is practically impossible to do. This way you will end up having loads of Roman units of which many are practically identical to another.
Having units like Sagittarii, Legionarii, Plumbatarii, Lanciarii for the divided classes Limitanei, Pseudocomitatenses, Comitatenses and Palatini is a bit too much.
Also the Lanciarii/Lancearii, Plumbatarii, Legionarii are both units organised into a Legio and both units possessed the same equipment.
The thing about the Iuniores and Seniores is not really relevant. It only is applicable to names and not to unit types. It also had probably little to do with experience of those units in general.

The regional based special units were in fact not all special units. Their names are merely territorial. They do not specify unit types but their origin or place where they were stationed. The point is also, as historians also told me, why Equites Mauri, Equites Parthi and Equites Illiriciani while there are lots lots of more like Equites Persae, Tervingi, Vesontes, Anderitani, etc. etc.... and they're right it doesn't make sense.
I think we should avoid unit names and go for the unit types. My initial plan was somewhat like yours but like some more knowledgeable told me you would end up having many double units only differing in status but having the same equipment and you'll end up feeling lost, both as modder and player (especially when you play the mod and know nothing about the late Roman period).


Almost forgot to answer your question Mylae... . Nice hearing you like my late Romans. And yes, I'm interested in helping you guys. Just send a pm and let me know what the plans are...

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

Legio[/B] (a unit of standard heavy infantry of the central field armies having a spear, sword, and missle weapons like darts and javelins. Forget the Lanciarii and Plumbatarii units as different unit types because they weren't. The differences are just the name/nickname)

I think the problem here is the same as we have for Sassanids Savarans, for the Savarans, they are actually armed w/ kontus/bow/mace/sword, unfortunately in RTW engine only two weapons are available so we will be doing Savaran units w/ bow/kontus, bow/mace, and prolly kontus/sword.
Here we meet up w/ same dilemna actual Legio is armed w/ spear/sword/missile weapons (darts and javelins). we could limit to only one legio pattern w/ just spear/javelin but for gameplays sake this would severely limit the fighting capability of the Romans...
so why not make spear/javelin, sword/javelin, sword/dart units? maybe not 100% historically correct but there is no way we can give our units three weapons...
pardon my ignorance and pls educate me if necessary, but to me I find more sense in a heavy infantry w/ anticav capability (lanciarii) w/ offensive capability (legio) and one w/ superior skirmishing capability (plumbatarii)...
UNLESS, the legio can be given similar stats, anti-cav capability, offensive capability, plus the superior skirmishing ability. even then I think differentiating by region (looks) would be a good idea.

This way you will end up having loads of Roman units of which many are practically identical to another.
Having units like Sagittarii, Legionarii, Plumbatarii, Lanciarii for the divided classes Limitanei, Pseudocomitatenses, Comitatenses and Palatini is a bit too much.

ah, but equipment isn't the only differentiating factor, there is also recruitability (by building level), armor, and morale. and maybe for the lower level units not too much differntiation in equipment

The regional based special units were in fact not all special units. Their names are merely territorial. They do not specify unit types but their origin or place where they were stationed. The point is also, as historians also told me, why Equites Mauri, Equites Parthi and Equites Illiriciani while there are lots lots of more like Equites Persae, Tervingi, Vesontes, Anderitani, etc. etc.... and they're right it doesn't make sense.

ah, but they would also look somewhat different, would have a different mystique if not technique in fighting, I think adding more to this or at least balancing their availability is preferable to removing them.

I think we should avoid unit names and go for the unit types. My initial plan was somewhat like yours but like some more knowledgeable told me you would end up having many double units only differing in status but having the same equipment and you'll end up feeling lost, both as modder and player (especially when you play the mod and know nothing about the late Roman period).

I disagree with this, I think, though the player may find it confusing at first, it is actually more enjoyable.

[Mylae]

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late Roman unitlist which I had in mind:

Infantry:

Sagittarii
Exploratores
Exculcatores
Milites
Auxilia Cohors
Legio
Auxilia Palatina
Legio Palatina

P.S. Possibly adding Excubitores as infantry guard unit.

I agree almost at all. when you said that plumbatari, lanciari, etc are the same unit, is exactly what i have in mind. from answer to my post i see that there was a bit of confusion.

so, let's make clear some stuff. unit will have a sort of "double name"; pseudocomitatenses, comitatenses and so on are distinguished by years of experience and heavy armouring.
let's make a possible unit list, to clear doubts:

1-Exploratores (Limitanei) Light armour, no exp
2-Sagittarii (Limitanei) Light armour, no exp
3-Milites (Limitanei) Light armour, no exp
4-Auxilia (Pseudocomitatenses) Medium armour, little exp
5-Plumbatari (Pseudocomitatenses) Medium armour, little exp
6-Sagittari (Pseudocomitatenses) Medium armour, little exp
7-Legionari (Comitatenses) Heavy armour, average exp
8-Lanciari (Comitatenses) Heavy armour, average exp
9-Legionari (Auxilia Palatina) Heavy armour, high exp
10-Legionari (Legio Palatina) Heavy armour, highest exp.

possible "guard units" could be not only Excubitores, but also Domestici and another one that i don't remember by now. they could be used as "general guards", since seems that in BI is possible to have different units as general guards. i will see it.

Cavalry:

Ala/Equites/Equites Alae
Equites Armaturae
Equites Promoti
Equites Sagittarii
Equites Catafractarii
Equites Clibanarii

Guard units:

Equites Stablesiani
Equites Scutarii
Schola Palatina (consisting of mainly Germanic soldiers)

Candidati (General's unit consisting of chosen men from the Scholae Palatinae)

since the "armaturae" means that they are armoured, maybe they could be light armoured, not unarmed at all.
about sagittari, i will point that in the notitia dignitatum there are reference to equites clibinari sagittari (or catafractari sagittari), however, other horse archers are clearly foederati, light armoured. so we could have 2 horse archer units, the heavy armoured one available for the eastern side only, since seems to be a copy of persian cavalry.

Catapults etc.:

Ballistae/Balistarii
Scorpiones/Manuballistae/Cheiroballistae/Manubalistarii
Onagri
Carroballistae (late Roman invention mentioned and visualised in De Rebus Bellicis)

i disagree on carroballistae. seems that the cart were used just to quickly move light artillery in the field. in fact, heavy artillery are usually siege weapons, and siege weapons were built up in the sieging place. could you imagine to carry on a ballista on your shoulder? that's all. also, a carroballista is practically senseless. it cannot shoot on a cart on movement, because will have no accuracy at all. battle fields were not plain, and a rock under a wheel in a moving cart will send the dart too far away. if the cart served to a quick artillery movement, well, it means that it should mount and unmount a ballista; a thing impossible to do by rtw engine.

however, regional name issue could be almosteasily solved by modding legion names.

[Razor]

1-Exploratores (Limitanei) Light armour, no exp
2-Sagittarii (Limitanei) Light armour, no exp
3-Milites (Limitanei) Light armour, no exp
4-Auxilia (Pseudocomitatenses) Medium armour, little exp
5-Plumbatari (Pseudocomitatenses) Medium armour, little exp
6-Sagittari (Pseudocomitatenses) Medium armour, little exp
7-Legionari (Comitatenses) Heavy armour, average exp
8-Lanciari (Comitatenses) Heavy armour, average exp
9-Legionari (Auxilia Palatina) Heavy armour, high exp
10-Legionari (Legio Palatina) Heavy armour, highest exp.

I’d say:

1-Exploratores (Limitanei) Light armour, no exp
2-Sagittarii (Limitanei) Light armour, no exp
3-Milites (Limitanei) Light armour, no exp
4-Auxilia change to Auxilia Cohors (Lim./Ps.Com.) Medium armour, little exp
6-Sagittarii change to Sagittarii Graves(Ps.Com./Com./Aux.Pal.)Med./H armour, little exp
7-Legionarii change to Legio (Comitatenses) Heavy armour, average exp
9- Legionarii change to Auxilia Palatina (Auxilia Palatina) Heavy armour, high exp
10-Legionarii change to Legio Palatina (Legio Palatina) Heavy armour, highest exp.

Add:
11-Exculcatores (Lim./Ps.Com./Com./Aux.Pal./Leg.Pal.) Light armour, average/high exp.
(were simply picked men from a unit to perform skirmish duties so could have come from any unit)

Delete:

5-Plumbatarii(Ps.Com./Com./Leg.Pal.) Medium armour, little exp (same as Legio)
8-Lanciarii (Ps.Com./Com./Leg.Pal.) Heavy armour, average exp (same as Legio)

Infact the Legio Palatina units the Herculiani and the Joviani were known for their use of the plumbatae in the end of the third century and became the favourite units of the emperors of Diocletianus and the rest of the tetrachs. Anyhow these units were infact elite Legiones forming the then new Legiones Palatinae along with the Divitenses and Lanciarii (hey also a Legio Palatina unit!).
I can understand it from gameplay’s perspective, but all Legio units (Lanciarii and Plumbatarii are Legio units) had lances and plumbatae/mattiobarbuli as well as spathae. You would make differences that weren’t there.


And then you get the almost same list as I have… with an additional archer unit which is quite acceptable, yes.

Also I’d like to inform you that I use Auxilia Cohors, Auxilia Palatina, Legio and Legio Palatina. Both were in fact heavy infantry having similar equipment, but still are historically different like different unit size and different origin.
That’s why I have:
Auxilia Cohors (consisted of 300-500 heavy infantrymen, remnant of old military organisation)
Legio (consisted of 1000-1200 heavy infantrymen)
Auxilia Palatina (consisted of 800 elite heavy infantrymen. Set with faster movement to give a greater flexibility than standard Legions, after all they were commando-like. Of course they would look and act the same as the Exculcatores but the Auxilia Palatina units were known for doing this often so adding more flexibility wouldn’t be a bad idea.)
Legio Palatina (consisted of 1000-1200 elite heavy infantrymen)

since the "armaturae" means that they are armoured, maybe they could be light armoured, not unarmed at all.
about sagittari, i will point that in the notitia dignitatum there are reference to equites clibinari sagittari (or catafractari sagittari), however, other horse archers are clearly foederati, light armoured. so we could have two horse archer units, the heavy armoured one available for the eastern side only, since seems to be a copy of persian cavalry.

I’ve read somewhere in a Latin text that 'Armaturae' became a shortening of 'Armaturae Leves' (thus omitting 'Leves') next to 'Armaturae Graves'. The thing is what do you consider light armoured.
I like the idea of having two types of horse archers for the east. I didn't spot an Equites Catafractarii Sagittarii unit but did spot a Equites Sagittarii Clibanarii stationed in the west (!!). Of course the question remains were Clibanarii units also horse archers or not or did it just differed per unit. This also brings up the question whether there should be more Clibanarii units or not, since there were just a couple of units of them.

i disagree on carroballistae. seems that the cart were used just to quickly move light artillery in the field. in fact, heavy artillery are usually siege weapons, and siege weapons were built up in the sieging place. could you imagine to carry on a ballista on your shoulder? that's all. also, a carroballista is practically senseless. it cannot shoot on a cart on movement, because will have no accuracy at all. battle fields were not plain, and a rock under a wheel in a moving cart will send the dart too far away. if the cart served to a quick artillery movement, well, it means that it should mount and unmount a ballista; a thing impossible to do by rtw engine.

Take a look at the barded horses and the apparently immovable ballista. It seems that they were meant to fire from the cart (perhaps not while riding). I'm aware that Scorpiones were also moved on a cart but this picture taken from 'De Rebus Bellicis' suggests that this torsion weapon was stationary on the cart and were in fact movable. Perhaps not like the way it’s portrayed in BI but still…

however, regional name issue could be almosteasily solved by modding legion names.

Yep, you’re right. Not sure whether to implement the Legion names or names like Illyriciani, Mauri etc. But it can be interesting :original: .


P.S. If this will continue like this wouldn't it be better if we can discuss this in another topic?

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

juve has redone the legion names, here are the new legion names:

{Herculiani_Seniores} Herculiani Seniores
{Ioviani_Seniores} Ioviani Seniores
{Cornuti_Seniores} Cornuti Seniores
{Primani_Seniores} Primani Seniores
{Septimani_Seniores} Septimani Seniores
{Batavi_Iuniores} Batavi Iuniores
{Divitenses_Seniores} Divitenses Seniores
{Leones_Iuniores} Leones Iuniores
{Felices_Iuniores} Felices Iuniores
{Martenses_Iuniores} Martenses Iuniores
{Honoriani_Felices_Gallicani} Honoriani Felices Gallicani
{Menapii_Seniores} Menapii Seniores
{Corniacenses} Corniacenses
{Defensores_Iuniores} Defensores Iuniores
{Lanciarii_Gallicani_Honoriani} Lanciarii Gallicani Honoriani
{Nervii} Nervii
{Superventores_Iuniores} Superventores Iuniores
{Vesontes} Vesontes
{Fortenses} Fortenses
{Propugnatores_Seniores} Propugnatores Seniores
{Petulantes_Seniores} Petulantes Seniores
{Constantiaci} Constantiaci
{Mauri_Tonantes_Seniores} Mauri Tonantes Seniores
{Primani_Iuniores} Primani Iuniores
{Raeti} Raeti
{Flavia_Virtutis} Flavia Virtutis
{Flavia_Pacis} Flavia Pacis
{Noricum} Noricum
{Honoriani_Atecotti_Seniores} Honoriani Atecotti Seniores
{Victores_Iuniores_Britanniaciani} Victores Iuniores Britanniaciani
{Exculcatores_Iuniores_Britanniaciani} Exculcatores Iuniores Britanniaciani
{Undecimani} Undecimani
{Celtae_Iuniores} Celtae Iuniores
{Augustani} Augustani
{Regii} Regii
{Solenses_Seniores} Solenses Seniores
{Constantini_Dafnenses} Constantini Dafnenses
{Iulia_Alexandria} Iulia Alexandria
{Flavia_Gemina} Flavia Gemina
{Tertia_Herculea} Tertia Herculea
{Augustenses_Defensores} Augustenses Defensores
{Gratianenses} Gratianenses
{Maximiana} Maximiana
{Diocletiana} Diocletiana
{Martia} Martia
{Felix_Valentis_Thebaeorum} Felix Valentis Thebaeorum
{Flavia_Constantia_Thebaeorum} Flavia Constantia Thebaeorum
{Celtae_Seniores} Celtae Seniores
{Ascarii_Seniores} Ascarii Seniores
{Sabini} Sabini
{Brachiati_Seniores} Brachiati Seniores
{Mattiaci_Iuniores} Mattiaci Iuniores
{Secundani_Iuniores} Secundani Iuniores
{Armigeri_Defensores_Seniores} Armigeri Defensores Seniores
{Norica} Norica
{Invicti_Seniores} Invicti Seniores
{Balistarii_Seniores} Balistarii Seniores
{Balistarii_Theodosiaci} Balistarii Theodosiaci
{Funditores} Funditores
{Martia} Martia
{Secundani_Italiciani} Secundani Italiciani
{Martenses_Seniores} Martenses Seniores
{Salii_Seniores} Salii Seniores
{Mattiarii_Iuniores} Mattiarii Iuniores
{Iovii_Iuniores} Iovii Iuniores
{Lanciarii_Seniores} Lanciarii Seniores
{Ioviani_Iuniores} Ioviani Iuniores
{Atecotti} Atecotti
{Sagittarii_Lecti} Sagittarii Lecti
{Martii} Martii
{Timacenses_Auxiliarii} Timacenses Auxiliarii
{Matiarii_Seniores} Matiarii Seniores
{Sagittarii_Seniores_Orientales} Sagittarii Seniores Orientales
{Felices_Arcadiani_Seniores} Felices Arcadiani Seniores
{Fretensis} Fretensis
{Flavia_Theodosiana} Flavia Theodosiana
{Felices_Theodosiani} Felices Theodosiani

u can check out the latest internal build, its been implemented in there

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

how about using a different Legio model/skin for some areas (by hidden resources), not sure if we can go so far as to vary the weaponry/stats, too?
here are the hidden resources we could choose maybe 10 of those?
also maybe a little regional variation in Equites Promoti

rome britain bosphoran berber slav sughdian costantinopoli thessaloniki river dalmatia athens antiochia giza pergamo 
alexandria capri ravenna jerusalem tara tingi carthago italia silkrd german gaul iberia mesopotamia daylam steppes sarmatian 
ariana armeniar parthian slavic arabian indian palestinian europa asian grecia italia2 anglosaxon celtic aegyptian africae

maybe the ff:

rome
ravenna
constantinopoli
carthago
italia 
gaul /iberia 
mesopotamia /parthian 
arabian /palestinian 
dalmatia /europa /grecia
asian  
italia2 
berber /aegyptian /africae

[Mylae]

well, well, well...
razor we agree alomost at all for a possible unit list, i see

well, about the plumbatari, my intention was not surely to private the normal legio from his weapons but to have a corp of soldiers "specialized" for skirmish duties, trained for them, and with a slighly higher stat with martiobarbuli. i know plumbatari is a fictional name, because martiobarbulares does not sould well for english-speaking people . however, this unit could be what you call the exculcatores. as a stupid i was not thinking to their skirmish ability. and i see you have add mmore unit, the units that i was tinking it was nice to have (but then i've thinked: well, this man will get bred of me and of doing romans as well).

about the carroballista - i see this illustration for the very first time. really nice....
can we made a model for it? to do the animation could be a successive step, the important is to have such a nice piece of mobile artillery.
maybe i could ask to signiferone, a wizard of animations, if he could do it... and i imagine slow horses with a ballista engine on should be not so hard to do, however i have no idea.
about crews, we could think if they have do be inside or outside the chariot. it will be cool if they look always inside...

[Razor]

well, about the plumbatari, my intention was not surely to private the normal legio from his weapons but to have a corp of soldiers "specialized" for skirmish duties, trained for them, and with a slighly higher stat with martiobarbuli. i know plumbatari is a fictional name, because martiobarbulares does not sould well for english-speaking people . however, this unit could be what you call the exculcatores. as a stupid i was not thinking to their skirmish ability. and i see you have add mmore unit, the units that i was tinking it was nice to have (but then i've thinked: well, this man will get bred of me and of doing romans as well).

Indeed we agree on a lot of stuff. Now I understand what you mean with this Plumbatarii unit. And yes, basically they would be light skirmishers like my Exculcatores. I thought you were talking about heavy armoured Plumbatarii similar to the heavy Legionaries.
And hey, I'm always in for a discussion . I'm just saying what I think is best and give the arguments.

About the Carroballistae, I don't have any experience modelling chariots and I already noticed that the Carriage Ballista in BI uses several models (cart and ballista seperated)... And I believe that the chariot is not meant for soldiers to be in/on. I think the crew stood outside of the chariot. To get this fixed would take some real effort and I don't know for sure how to achieve this.


@Ramon Gonzales Y Garcia:
Good job and nice idea, but I don't know if it would work correctly. I was always thinking that you give a region a legion name and that when a unit using a legion name is recruited it would have that name. But if you train more of the same unit in the same region, you would end up having two Legiones Herculiani Seniores. Also the unit names you used include different units like Balistarii/Ballistae, Legiones, Sagittarii, Legiones Palatinae, and Auxilia Palatina units.
It would be kinda weird if a legio unit would end up having the name 'Sagittarii Seniores Orientales' for example. plus all unit names were unique so it would be impossible to use it correctly.
However it's still a cool feature which can still be used. For example we could use it for the Legiones and the Legiones Palatinae and perhaps Auxilia Palatina (although I do have to admit that an Auxilia Palatina unit having a Legion name like 'Undecimani' is weird as the old name of this legion was something like Legio XI).

Also using different models and skins for certain units is certainly possible and cool, but time consuming and not a necessity. Anyway I really think it's cool to have it included but it's not necessary and perhaps we should focus on including the standard units first.

[Mylae]

well,about cart modelling, i was thinking this: as well as the models are separated, they could be merged, right? the carroballista in BI was a simple merging of 2 models with a new animation.
IF - and i will like to underline IF - this is possible, it could be possible with other models too. for instance, it could be possible with new carriage model (that will feature 2 horses and 4 wheels) and a new ballista model. the crew should be few and, looking other images, going by feet. in fact, if the horses are so heavy armoured, they cannot run; and the carriage makes impossible to run too. probably they use it as a mobile artillery, with foot crew.
the main problem, however, becames the animation.

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

And hey, I'm always in for a discussion . I'm just saying what I think is best and give the arguments.

discussion is always good , as even experts cannot agree on a lot of things... in the end what we'd have will NEVER satisfy everybody but at least we all know why we decided on what we have.

Good job and nice idea, but I don't know if it would work correctly. I was always thinking that you give a region a legion name and that when a unit using a legion name is recruited it would have that name. But if you train more of the same unit in the same region, you would end up having two Legiones Herculiani Seniores.

there would be a Legio I Herculiani Seniores and a Legio II Herculiani Seniores, etc...

Also the unit names you used include different units like Balistarii/Ballistae, Legiones, Sagittarii, Legiones Palatinae, and Auxilia Palatina units. It would be kinda weird if a legio unit would end up having the name 'Sagittarii Seniores Orientales' for example. plus all unit names were unique so it would be impossible to use it correctly.

true, so should we disable this legion name? go back to old names? I have to be working on the descr_regions file so need to know w/c one to work on

However it's still a cool feature which can still be used. For example we could use it for the Legiones and the Legiones Palatinae and perhaps Auxilia Palatina (although I do have to admit that an Auxilia Palatina unit having a Legion name like 'Undecimani' is weird as the old name of this legion was something like Legio XI).

if we could limit the Auxilia Palatina to let us say Rome, Ravenna, we could have the legion name there as '_' (blank) w/c would come out Legio I, Legio II, etc...

Also using different models and skins for certain units is certainly possible and cool, but time consuming and not a necessity.

I think it is just a matter of adding a plume here, changing a texture here, maybe changing weapons (darts here, javelins there) I think a couple of days work would do it if the base models are there (w/c they are)

Anyway I really think it's cool to have it included but it's not necessary and perhaps we should focus on including the standard units first.

but certainly focus on the standard units first.

re: peasants, I was thinking it would be necessary to have 'western peasants' or its equivalent in-game this is mainly to have a basic unit that can be recruitable in the core buildings, not having this would cause CTD when a settlement rebels back to Roman faction and no units are recruitable (AI may have demolished barracks, etc) this peasant, for example has been replaced by Cohortis Vigiletes in IBFD.
I know they are not supposed to be a battlefield unit as their purpose is more as a police force, but such a unit, buildable in core buildings is necessary, so how about milites?
Since this problem w/ no buildable unit in a core building is only related to rebelling BACK to founding faction, and all Romans start w/ higher level buildings, we can make the milites recruitable from governors palace maybe?...

well,about cart modelling, i was thinking this: as well as the models are separated, they could be merged, right? the carroballista in BI was a simple merging of 2 models with a new animation.

the thing is, the scorpion cart (internal name) is based on the 'chariot' type, too fast, too mobile... more than just a new animation, I think it has to be changed to an engine (like other engines) w/c would however make it too slow?... another possibility is to try using settings for elephants, speed still good enough...

IF - and i will like to underline IF - this is possible, it could be possible with other models too. for instance, it could be possible with new carriage model (that will feature 2 horses and 4 wheels) and a new ballista model. the crew should be few and, looking other images, going by feet. in fact, if the horses are so heavy armoured, they cannot run; and the carriage makes impossible to run too. probably they use it as a mobile artillery, with foot crew.
the main problem, however, becames the animation.

I am also thinking of the ram animation...

will try a few things but I really doubt this way could be implemented soon. so two choices:
1) retain old carriage ballista w/ just new crew models
2) no carriage ballista

[Razor]

The Western empire:

Mag. Ped.
12 Legiones Palatinae:
Ioviani seniores
Herculiani seniores
Divitenses seniores
Tongrecani seniores
Pannoniciani seniores
Moesiaci seniores
Armigeri propugnatores seniores
Lanciarii Sabarienses
Octavani
Thebaei
Cimbriani
Armigeri propugnatores iuniores

65 Auxilia Palatina:
Cornuti seniores
Brachiati seniores
Petulantes seniores
Celtae seniores
Heruli seniores
Batavi seniores
Mattiaci seniores
Mattiaci iuniores
Ascarii seniores
Ascarii iuniores
Iovii seniores
Cornuti iuniores
Sagittarii Nervii
Leones seniores
Leones iuniores
Exculcatores seniores
Sagittarii Tungri
Exculcatores iuniores
Tubantes
Salii
Grati
Felices seniores
Felices iuniores
Gratianenses seniores
Invicti seniores
Augustei
Iovii iuniores
Victores iuniores
Batavi iuniores
Bructeri
Ampsivarii
Gratianenses iuniores
Valentianenses iuniores
Raeti
Sequani
Sagittarii venatores
Latini
Sabini
Brachiati iuniores
Honoriani Atecotti seniores
Honoriani Marcomanni seniores
Honoriani Marcomanni iuniores
Honoriani Atecotti iuniores
Brisigavi seniores
Brisigavi iuniores
Honoriani Mauri seniores
Honoriani Mauri iuniores
Celtae iuniores
Invicti iuniores Britanniciani
Exculcatores iuniores Britanniciani
Felices Valentinianenses
Mattiaci iuniores Gallicani
Salii Gallicani
Sagittarii Nervii Gallicani
Iovii iuniores Gallicani
Seguntienses
Galli victores
Honoriani victores iuniores
Honoriani ascarii seniores
Felices iuniores Gallicani
Atecotti iuniores Gallicani
Tungri
Honoriani Gallicani
Mauri tonantes seniores
Mauri tonantes iuniores


32 Legiones comitatenses:
Menapii seniores
Fortenses
Propugnatores seniores
Armigeri defensores seniores
Septimani seniores
Regii
Pacatianenses
Vesontes
Mattiarii iuniores
Mauri cetrati
Undecimani
Secundani Italiciani
Germaniciani iuniores
Tertiani Italica
Tertia Herculea
Lanciarii Gallicani Honoriani
Propugnatores iuniores
Secunda Britannica
Septimani iuniores
Praesichantes
Ursarienses
Cortoriacenses
Geminiacenses
Honoriani felices Gallicani
Tertia Iulia Alpina
Prima Flavia Pacis
Secunda Flavia Virtutis
Tertia Flavia Salutis
Flavia victrix Constantina
Secunda Flavia Constantiniana
Tertio Augustani
Fortenses

18 Pseudocomitatenses:
Prima Alpina
Secunda Iulia Alpina
Lanciarii Lauriacenses
Lanciarii Comaginenses
Taurunenses
Antianenses
Pontinenses
Prima Flavia Gallicana Constantia
Martenses
Abrincateni
Defensores seniores
Mauri Osismiaci
Prima Flavia Metis
Superventores iuniores
Constantiaci
Corniacenses
Septimani
Romanenses


The Eastern empire:

Mag. Mil. Praes. I
6 Legiones Palatinae:
Lanciarii seniores
Ioviani iuniores
Herculiani iuniores
Fortenses
Nervii
Matiarii iuniores

18 Auxilia Palatina:
Batavi seniores
Brachiati iuniores
Salii
Constantiani
Mattiaci seniores
Sagittarii seniores Gallicani
Sagittarii iuniores Gallicani
Tertii sagittarii Valentis
Defensores
Raetobarii
Anglevarii
Hiberi
Visi
Felices Honoriani iuniores
Victores
Primi Theodosiani
Tertii Theodosiani
Felices Theodosiani Isauri

Mag. Mil. Praes. II
6 Legiones palatina:
Matiarii seniores
Daci
Scythae
Primani
Undecimani
Lanciarii iuniores

17 Auxilia palatina:
Regii
Cornuti
Tubantes
Constantiniani
Mattiaci iuniores
Sagittarii seniores Orientales
Sagittarii iuniores Orientales
Sagittarii dominici
Vindices
Bucinobantes
Falchovarii
Thraces
Tervingi
Felices Theodosiani
Felices Arcadiani iuniores
Secundi Theodosiani
Quarti Theodosiani


Mag. Mil. per Orientem
2 Auxilia palatina:
Felices Arcadiani seniores
Felices Honoriani seniores

9 Legiones comitatenses:
Quinta Macedonica
Martenses seniores
Septima gemina
Decima gemina
Balistarii seniores
Prima Flavia Constantia
Secunda Flavia Constantia Thebaeorum
Secunda Felix Valentis Thebaeorum
Prima Flavia Theodosiana

11 pseudocomitatenses:
Prima Armeniaca
Secunda Armeniaca
Equites tertio Dalmatae
Fortenses auxiliarii
Funditores
Prima Italica
Quarta Italica
Sexta Parthica
Prima Isaura sagittaria
Balistarii Theodosiaci
Transtigritani


Mag. Mil. per Thracias
20 Legiones comitatenses:
Solenses seniores
Menapii
Prima Maximiana Thebaeorum
Tertia Diocletiana Thebaeorum
Tertiodecimani
Quartodecimani
Prima Flavia gemina
Secunda Flavia gemina
Constantini seniores
Divitenses Gallicani
Lanciarii Stobenses
Constantini Dafnenses
Balistarii Dafnenses
Balistarii iuniores
Pannoniciani iuniores
Taanni
Solenses Gallicani
Iulia Alexandria
Augustenses
Valentinianenses

Mag. Mil. per Illyricum
1 Legiones palatina:
Britones seniores

6 Auxilia palatina:
Ascarii seniores
Ascarii iuniores
Petulantes iuniores
Sagittarii lecti
Invicti iuniores
Atecotti

8 Legiones comitatenses:
Matiarii constantes
Martii
Dianenses
Germaniciani seniores
Secundani
Lanciarii Augustenses
Minervii
Lanciarii iuniores

9 pseudocomitatenses:
Timacenses auxiliarii
Felices Theodosiani iuniores
Bugaracenses
Scupenses
Ulpianenses
Merenses
Secundi Theodosiani
Balistarii Theodosiani iuniores
Scampenses


Here's a list of unitnames taken from the Notitia Dignitatum. I organised them under their magistrate titles also to get some insight of the organisation.
I also included the Auxilia Palatina for some reason I can't remember... (possibly just for the info)
Anyway since the names are in total quite a few we can leave out the Auxilia Palatina names and use the Legiones Palatinae/ Comitatenses/ Pseudocomitatenses instead for the Legiones Palatinae, Legiones and Milites (detachments of the field army units or perhaps even the origin of the field army units.).
The Bold and Italic names are the ones that should not be used (like sagittarii, balistarii, exculcatores, funditores).

I guess this list would be enough to work with .
Btw taken from this site: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...aPatterns.html

[Mylae]

better no carriage for now. let's "forget" it by now, but better to work on it in silence , like to give a surprise to people

about legion names, i have had an idea. If i go not wrong, the legion file name is composed so:
[herculiani_seniores] Herculiani Seniores
right? well, what about if to almost all provinces we do so:
[legion_names_I] Herculiani Seniores
[legion_names_I] Propugnatores Seniores
[legion_names_I] Honoriani Atecotti Seniores

in such way we could give to a certain pool of provinces (administrative magister militum subdivisions, like britannia, Italia, Gallia, Illyricum, Thracia, etc) the same name in the internal file, like [legion_names_I]; however, when the internal engine have to look inside the names, could maybe choose randomly a name of the pool.
this would be a great way to cheating the rtw engine. however, there should be more legion names then provinces; i'm afraid rtw engine is not so stupid, and give the first legion name to the first province on which is written it and so on. but still a try can be done.


p.s.: i'm actually working on scripts... on the weekend i hope to finish soon a work i have in mind and then share it with you.
i'm also making new buildings too, just special ones.

when i will have time, i will devote my work to make "zones" of buildings, i mean, i hate my ostrogoths goes in Constantinople and could build upon such a great city some horrible barbarian stuff. is not historical neither funny. i will try to avoid it, and allow instead the building of a new set of romano-barbarian buildings.

[Razor]

However it's still a cool feature which can still be used. For example we could use it for the Legiones and the Legiones Palatinae and perhaps Auxilia Palatina (although I do have to admit that an Auxilia Palatina unit having a Legion name like 'Undecimani' is weird as the old name of this legion was something like Legio XI).

if we could limit the Auxilia Palatina to let us say Rome, Ravenna, we could have the legion name there as '_' (blank) w/c would come out Legio I, Legio II, etc...

Hmmm what I was trying to say is that I’m not sure if Auxilia Palatina units were organised into legions. If someone can confirm they were then we could use legion-like Auxilia Palatina names like Primi Theodosiani, Tertii Theodosiani, Secundi Theodosiani, Quarti Theodosiani etc.

Also using different models and skins for certain units is certainly possible and cool, but time consuming and not a necessity.

I think it is just a matter of adding a plume here, changing a texture here, maybe changing weapons (darts here, javelins there) I think a couple of days work would do it if the base models are there (w/c they are)

True, but the real art in this (and also the headache) is the shield design. Sometimes they’re easy, but sometimes they’re just freakin’ hard to make. That’s the part where you need to be really creative.

re: peasants, I was thinking it would be necessary to have 'western peasants' or its equivalent in-game this is mainly to have a basic unit that can be recruitable in the core buildings, not having this would cause CTD when a settlement rebels back to Roman faction and no units are recruitable (AI may have demolished barracks, etc) this peasant, for example has been replaced by Cohortis Vigiletes in IBFD.
I know they are not supposed to be a battlefield unit as their purpose is more as a police force, but such a unit, buildable in core buildings is necessary, so how about milites?
Since this problem w/ no buildable unit in a core building is only related to rebelling BACK to founding faction, and all Romans start w/ higher level buildings, we can make the milites recruitable from governors palace maybe?...

Milites wouldn’t be a bad idea me thinks. And that of making them recruitable through the governor’s palace isn’t a bad idea either. :original:

will try a few things but I really doubt this way could be implemented soon. so two choices:
1) retain old carriage ballista w/ just new crew models
2) no carriage ballista

I’m for the first option. It would portray something of the military developments and inventions of the later Roman empire and many people believe that it was a period of decline but in many perspectives it had great developments.
( http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=8423 )

[Razor]

about legion names, i have had an idea. If i go not wrong, the legion file name is composed so:
[herculiani_seniores] Herculiani Seniores
right? well, what about if to almost all provinces we do so:
[legion_names_I] Herculiani Seniores
[legion_names_I] Propugnatores Seniores
[legion_names_I] Honoriani Atecotti Seniores

in such way we could give to a certain pool of provinces (administrative magister militum subdivisions, like britannia, Italia, Gallia, Illyricum, Thracia, etc) the same name in the internal file, like [legion_names_I]; however, when the internal engine have to look inside the names, could maybe choose randomly a name of the pool.
this would be a great way to cheating the rtw engine. however, there should be more legion names then provinces; i'm afraid rtw engine is not so stupid, and give the first legion name to the first province on which is written it and so on. but still a try can be done.


p.s.: i'm actually working on scripts... on the weekend i hope to finish soon a work i have in mind and then share it with you.
i'm also making new buildings too, just special ones.

when i will have time, i will devote my work to make "zones" of buildings, i mean, i hate my ostrogoths goes in Constantinople and could build upon such a great city some horrible barbarian stuff. is not historical neither funny. i will try to avoid it, and allow instead the building of a new set of romano-barbarian buildings.

All sounds great!

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

True, but the real art in this (and also the headache) is the shield design. Sometimes they’re easy, but sometimes they’re just freakin’ hard to make. That’s the part where you need to be really creative.

ah, but you don't have to do this by your lonesome self if u tell us w/c shields to make (we also have references to Notitia so u could just refer there) we could have those made pronto

Milites wouldn’t be a bad idea me thinks. And that of making them recruitable through the governor’s palace isn’t a bad idea either. :original:

will go w/ this, then

I’m for the first option. It would portray something of the military developments and inventions of the later Roman empire and many people believe that it was a period of decline but in many perspectives it had great developments.
( http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=8423 )

lets do this then, it is easier to edit it out (if we prefer to later) than to edit it in.

[Mylae]

please, about carroballistae, not insert them back by now. better to do them after, with time. i hate the BI carriages.

also, Razor, for the 6.2 - so i mean with time - could you made some close-up uf some faces of your romans to make new UI?
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...&postcount=750
see here and you will get what i mean.

different units could fit well the differences in UI among "general" and "civilians" (diplomats); the latter ones will be cool with the roman fur hat. also, a 3dsmax close-up render is easier to mod, because you could turn the face up-down or in the left-right axe and you will create 5-6 pics from a model. i will do the remaining work of change some colour here and there, resize the image for "portraits" and "cards", make them "old" and "dead".
what do you think? too much work?

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

OK, I need this answered:
I am trying to add in Razor's Romans but am a bit confused on the Equites Scutarii, Equites Stablesiani and Equites Promoti.
they all look the same and their stats are also almost the same, how to differentiate them?
should they be region based? are promoti = scutarii = stablesiani?
I have simplified horse training facilities to only 3-4 levels so these medium cavalry should all be recruitable in 2nd level barracks