Who contributed more to western civilization - southern or northern european countries?

[Lord of Nihilism]

Split from the Caliphate thread in the Mudpit.

Compared to countries such as Portugal, Spain, Romania or whatever other countries are drawn on the map in the original post. Not only do the Nordic countries(Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark and Iceland) have far superior economies compared to Spain and Portugal, they also contribute the finest athletes for the Olympics, and their history and culture is nothing short of amazing. Me putting the Nordic countries above Spain, Portugal and etc may be because of slight bias, since I do absolutely love Norse mythology, culture and the history of the Nordic people, but if we put aside all the bias then the Nordic countries are extremely important in terms of economic might, culture and history.


If you can tell me what exactly Portugal and Spain offers(Exemplary contributions) to this world, then I might consider changing my view.

[fkizz]

and their history and culture is nothing short of amazing. Me putting the Nordic countries above Spain, Portugal and etc may be because of slight bias, since I do absolutely love Norse mythology, culture and the history of the Nordic people, but if we put aside all the bias then the Nordic countries are extremely important in terms of economic might, culture and history.

How do you handle Mediterranean having had people such as Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Caesar, Arquimedes, Aristotles, Plato, Socrates, etc.; and Roman Empire, while at that timeframe you had the barbarian invasions done by people of north europe that you deem as superior history, that destroyed one of the finest hour of craddles of western civilization development in the tragic barbarian invasions?

Took aditional +/-1000 years after fall of rome (till the 1400s-1500s) until west started gaining dominance again, and thanks to exploration age, started by Portuguese pioneer explorers.

If you want a deeper look on what we gave to the west (reviving its dominance after one thousand year slumber) have a good read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_discoveries

We also did huge improvements in Cartography and everything related to Navigation in general.

Pic here, Portuguese classified map of the world in 1502, stolen by an Italian spy (hence why its known today)


Also funny thing, in 1400s-1500s Portuguese Empire we did pre fabrication of buildings in stone, which was to make the pieces of the building here at home, then put them on ship, and later assemble them.. like IKEA does today. Isn't it funny that IKEA "idea" was used by used us for real forts some centuries ago? And for realpolitik other than home comfort?

So what original idea Sweden gave to the world? Did you know that superiority complex often steems from feelings of inferiority?

I'm here ready to be cold such as you claim are.

[Knight of Heaven]

Nordic people, but if we put aside all the bias then the Nordic countries are extremely important in terms of economic might, culture and history.;p

Economic might i get it sure in modern day at least, i remember Portugal helped out Finland when they were in need in the last century...
Culture and history, you got to be joking.
I mean obviously they have great culture and history, im not denying that.
But in no way they are superior, to the history, and cultural influence in the world, of the south european countries.
Portugal? Spain? Italy? Greece? we might not be economicaly strong now, and thats what has to be said, other than that, if it wasnt for its historic, cultural importance, we wouldnt recieve so manny visitors every year.

I mean what you would pick first to visit, Rome, Florence, Barcelona, Santorini, napoli, Lisbon, Milan? Bologne? or you rather visit kopenhagen? Helsinki? stockholm?
Give me a break. Sure you might chose the north first, depending on your interests, but most people doesnt.
And i have been into Sweden and Denmark, and loved it there loved the people there the most ( perks of been an european and a marvelous train system within europe), but as history, culture, and even food goes?! there is no question.
What the north has best? its peoples, and a marvelous social security system, that actualy works. ( it varies not all nordic country is the same on this actualy)

If anything else the south wins because of this

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[Lord Thesaurian]

Uh, well, if we really want to have the "which country has done more for the world" race between Spain, Portugal, and.....um....Quebec ( ), let's see. For Spain we have some of the most delightful and kind people I've ever met, 415 million native speakers (most universally understood language in the Western Hemisphere with 115 million secondary speakers and one of the fastest growing number of speakers), nearly $5 trillion in combined GDP, the spreading of their language and culture across the globe, an empire that once spanned the Atlantic and the majority of the Americas, nearly conquered Britain but for a fateful storm, amazing food and music, Latin girls, etc etc etc.

For Portugal we have 215 million native speakers and 50 million secondary speakers, formerly one of the mightiest empires in the world, $2.5 trillion in combined GDP, the spreading of their language and culture across the globe and consequently one of the primary languages of the Southern Hemisphere, Brazillian girls etc etc etc.

Realistically we all know Portugal's contributions to the creation of Brazillian girls alone trumps any opponent's contention, but let's look at Quebec:

8 million poor souls who exhibit the most hilarious and staunch xenophobia ever witnessed in history, speak terrible French and brag about it, refuse to speak English even though we all know they speak English far better than French, and a state that demands independence while still wanting full access to Canadian social services, economic benefits, and protection while its constituents emigrate en masse to the US and Canada.

And the winner is............. not Quebec

/thread

[Lord of Nihilism]

How do you handle Mediterranean having had people such as Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Caesar, Arquimedes, Aristotles, Plato, Socrates, etc.;

While their contributions to the World are worthwhile, they're insignificant compared to people like Sir Isaac Newton, Richard the Lionheart, Helmuth von Moltke, Carl von Clausewitz, Frederick the Great, William Wallace, Arthur Wellesley, Horatio Nelson, Napoleon Bonaparte, Louis Nicholas Devout, Michel Ney, Jean Lannes, Jean De Lattre, Charles De Gaulle, Jean le Rond d'Alembert, Andre-Marie Ampere, , Gustavus Adolphus, Carl Gustav Armfeldt and the list can continue on for 10+ pages. Like I said, France, the UK, Germany, Quebec and the Nordic countries are far more valuable than the Mediterranean countries in both history and economic might. If the ISIS takes out the countries I listed, Western civilisation as we know it will collapse and the world will descend into chaos and darkness.

and Roman Empire, while at that timeframe you had the barbarian invasions done by people of north europe that you deem as superior history, that destroyed one of the finest hour of craddles of western civilization development in the tragic barbarian invasions?

Well, these barbarians as you call us are responsible for Western civilisation and the World you enjoy living in, so that's high praise if anything. Us barbarians shaped this world for the past 500+ years and continue doing so, so if anything, we improved this World immensely compared to the Greeks. It's really no question; France, the UK, Quebec, Germany and the Nordic countries are the pioneers of western civilisation and if the ISIS conquered these countries, the World would be finished and technological advances would come to a halt. On the other hand, if the ISIS makes a Caliphate out of the Mediterranean countries, what exactly do we lose? A lot of countries who haven't been relevant in more than 500 years, as well as their severe economic problems. The ISIS would gain a lot of debt if they conquered Greece, Spain, Portugal and etc so that's fine by me.

Took aditional +/-1000 years after fall of rome (till the 1400s-1500s) until west started gaining dominance again, and thanks to exploration age, started by Portuguese pioneer explorers.

I'm afraid not, the vikings after the fall of the Roman Empire were considered the best explorers, and that's backed up by their impressive ship technology at the time as well as the fact that the Vikings were the first Europeans to colonise North America(Though, it didn't last too long). The Portuguese explorers weren't as important as you claim they are. They essentially mapped the coasts of Brasil, Africa and India and that's it; their contributions to naval navigation was limited and severely lacking compared to the British, French and the Vikings/Nordic countries.

If you want a deeper look on what we gave to the west (reviving its dominance after one thousand year slumber) have a good read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_discoveries

I read that link and if that's the best that Portugal gave us then i'm sorely dissapointed.

We also did huge improvements in Cartography and everything related to Navigation in general.

Pic here, Portuguese classified map of the world in 1502, stolen by an Italian spy (hence why its known today)


Also funny thing, in 1400s-1500s Portuguese Empire we did pre fabrication of buildings in stone, which was to make the pieces of the building here at home, then put them on ship, and later assemble them.. like IKEA does today. Isn't it funny that IKEA "idea" was used by used us for real forts some centuries ago? And for realpolitik other than home comfort?

While Portugal contributed something to naval exploration/navigation, their contributions were nothing compared to the British, French and the Nordic countries. This is why I won't shed a tear if the ISIS conquers Portugal.

So what original idea Sweden gave to the world? Did you know that superiority complex often steems from feelings of inferiority?

Really? You want to question what the Nordic countries have contributed? I can oblige that request I suppose. For starters, Sweden was a superpower during 1610-1720 approximately and changed the way wars were fought. Gustavus Adolphus is considered to be one of the greatest military commanders of all time, and Napoleon Bonaparte even respected him. There's also the fact that during the Viking Age, Sweden(Among others) reigned in present day Ireland and the UK and they also ruled in Kievan Rus(Modern day Ukraine). Essentially, what Sweden contributed to this world is a rich history in which they innovated warfare and naval exploration.

I'm here ready to be cold such as you claim are.

Indeed you are, but hopefully logic and reasoning will prevail.

[Winston Smith]

LoN, all I can say is that you have a very, uh... unique view of history. And by unique, I mean wrong. Let me just say that for a very, very long part of human history, it was the Mediterranean that was the centre of affairs in Europe. Northern Europe, for the most part, was a back water.

And I do like that somehow Quebec is now an equal, nay, superior contributer to Western Civilisation then Rome. Which is, to be frank, a ludicrous notion. Oscar Wilde said patriotism is a virtue of the viscous, but I'm starting to think it's one of the dimwitted.

"It's really no question; France, the UK, Quebec, Germany and the Nordic countries are the pioneers of western civilisation and if the ISIS conquered these countries, the World would be finished and technological advances would come to a halt"

​Apparently, the Chinese, Japanese, Australians, Indians, etc, etc, are incapable of technological development. The idea would be racist if it weren't so stupid.

[Earl Dibbles Jr]

LoN, all I can say is that you have a very, uh... unique view of history. And by unique, I mean wrong. Let me just say that for a very, very long part of human history, it was the Mediterranean that was the centre of affairs in Europe. Northern Europe, for the most part, was a back water.

Thousands of years ago this was the case. However, in the last 500 years Mediterranean countries haven't contributed in comparison to North-West Europeans. The Renaissance did begin in Italy and Italy did have a host of great minds such as Da Vinci, but shortly after there was a severe lack of great thinkers in the Mediterranean. Countries such as England, France, and Austria saw a boom in great thinkers, musicians, etc. during that time period and after, continuing to this day.

What you consider to be a 'backwater' destroyed the Roman Empire.

​Apparently, the Chinese, Japanese, Australians, Indians, etc, etc, are incapable of technological development. The idea would be racist if it weren't so stupid.

LoN was not discounting what these people have accomplished, he was simply stating that Mediterranean achievements have paled in comparison to Northern European achievements in terms of science and military.

I love how you jump to racism immediately. LoN did not say that any race was superior, so I'm not sure where that came from.

[conon394]

While their contributions to the World are worthwhile, they're insignificant compared to people like Sir Isaac Newton, Richard the Lionheart, Helmuth von Moltke, Carl von Clausewitz, Frederick the Great, William Wallace, Arthur Wellesley, Horatio Nelson, Napoleon Bonaparte, Louis Nicholas Devout, Michel Ney, Jean Lannes, Jean De Lattre, Charles De Gaulle, Jean le Rond d'Alembert, Andre-Marie Ampere, , Gustavus Adolphus, Carl Gustav Armfeldt and the list can continue on for 10+ pages. Like I said, France, the UK, Germany, Quebec and the Nordic countries are far more valuable than the Mediterranean countries in both history and economic might. If the ISIS takes out the countries I listed, Western civilisation as we know it will collapse and the world will descend into chaos and darkness.



Well, these barbarians as you call us are responsible for Western civilisation and the World you enjoy living in, so that's high praise if anything. Us barbarians shaped this world for the past 500+ years and continue doing so, so if anything, we improved this World immensely compared to the Greeks. It's really no question; France, the UK, Quebec, Germany and the Nordic countries are the pioneers of western civilisation and if the ISIS conquered these countries, the World would be finished and technological advances would come to a halt. On the other hand, if the ISIS makes a Caliphate out of the Mediterranean countries, what exactly do we lose? A lot of countries who haven't been relevant in more than 500 years, as well as their severe economic problems. The ISIS would gain a lot of debt if they conquered Greece, Spain, Portugal and etc so that's fine by me.



I'm afraid not, the vikings after the fall of the Roman Empire were considered the best explorers, and that's backed up by their impressive ship technology at the time as well as the fact that the Vikings were the first Europeans to colonise North America(Though, it didn't last too long). The Portuguese explorers weren't as important as you claim they are. They essentially mapped the coasts of Brasil, Africa and India and that's it; their contributions to naval navigation was limited and severely lacking compared to the British, French and the Vikings/Nordic countries.



I read that link and if that's the best that Portugal gave us then i'm sorely dissapointed.



While Portugal contributed something to naval exploration/navigation, their contributions were nothing compared to the British, French and the Nordic countries. This is why I won't shed a tear if the ISIS conquers Portugal.



Really? You want to question what the Nordic countries have contributed? I can oblige that request I suppose. For starters, Sweden was a superpower during 1610-1720 approximately and changed the way wars were fought. Gustavus Adolphus is considered to be one of the greatest military commanders of all time, and Napoleon Bonaparte even respected him. There's also the fact that during the Viking Age, Sweden(Among others) reigned in present day Ireland and the UK and they also ruled in Kievan Rus(Modern day Ukraine). Essentially, what Sweden contributed to this world is a rich history in which they innovated warfare and naval exploration.

Indeed you are, but hopefully logic and reasoning will prevail.

Wow what a bizarre post almost as odd as Canada needs to escape American slavery...

"Richard the Lionheart, Helmuth von Moltke, Carl von Clausewitz, Frederick the Great, William Wallace ... etc" Umm what did a bunch of military leaders contribute? Richard the Lionheart??? - wasting his nations money ruling ineffectively?

Quebec

Do tell and they did what?

While Portugal contributed something to naval exploration/navigation, their contributions were nothing compared to the British, French and the Nordic countries. This is why I won't shed a tear if the ISIS conquers Portugal.

Breathing understatement followed by overstament

backed up by their impressive ship technology

Not really open hulled oared ships with square sails - a technological dead end. I grant they were hard men and willing to take risks but don't get all too gushy about their ships. And remeber they only island hopped no crossing the Atlantic directly funyy left old Columbus out of your list. If thay had maybe they would have a better colony spot...

They essentially mapped the coasts of Brasil, Africa and India and that's it; their contributions to naval navigation was limited and severely lacking compared to the British, French and the Vikings/Nordic countries.

No rather they more or less established the basis for all early modern navigation and sailing and ship design

we improved this World immensely compared to the Greeks

When certainly not back in say 600-0 BC maybe now I suppose but try and be clear huh?

The ISIS would gain a lot of debt if they conquered Greece, Spain, Portugal and etc so that's fine by me

Cheap shot really because you Greece and Spain did not give us NAZIs, Communism, WW1 or WW2 or Atomic elimination of Cities, I think that list largely rest with prefered list.

[Ludicus]

Wow what a bizarre post almost as odd as Canada needs to escape American slavery...

"Richard the Lionheart, Helmuth von Moltke, Carl von Clausewitz, Frederick the Great, William Wallace ... etc" Umm what did a bunch of military leaders contribute? Richard the Lionheart??? - wasting his nations money ruling ineffectively?



Do tell and they did what?



Breathing understatement followed by overstament



Not really open hulled oared ships with square sails - a technological dead end. I grant they were hard men and willing to take risks but don't get all too gushy about their ships. And remeber they only island hopped no crossing the Atlantic directly funyy left old Columbus out of your list. If thay had maybe they would have a better colony spot...



No rather they more or less established the basis for all early modern navigation and sailing and ship design



When certainly not back in say 600-0 BC maybe now I suppose but try and be clear huh?



Cheap shot really because you Greece and Spain did not give us NAZIs, Communism, WW1 or WW2 or Atomic elimination of Cities, I think that list largely rest with prefered list.

Great post, Conon394

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Lord of Nihilism

I read that link and if that's the best that Portugal gave us then i'm sorely dissapointed.While Portugal contributed something to naval exploration/navigation, their contributions were nothing compared to the British, French and the Nordic countries. This is why I won't shed a tear if the ISIS conquers Portugal.

An ignorant/biased/racist... and incredibly stupid post. Go learn history. I recommend you Braudel (1) (e.g.Mediterranean in the Ancient World). He suggests that the defining "mark of a civilization is that it is capable of exporting itself, of spreading its culture to distant places. It is impossible to imagine a true civilization which does not export its people, its ways of thinking and living".

Simply put, Portugal (and Spain...) interconnected the histories of four continents and multiple oceans and seas over the span of four centuries.

Prof. Russel-Wood (Johns Hopkins University) explains,

"Althoug it cannot be claimed that the Portuguese "discovered" Africa, Asia, or America, they did play a major role in bringing to the peoples of Europe, Africa, Asia, and America an awareness of each other. This occurred initially in the "contact period" of European explorations. But what distinguishes the Portuguese from the Spanish, English, French and Dutch, was that such initial contacts were nurtured into fruitful relationships over several centuries and that they were truly global in nature. The Portuguese altered how the peoples of the world saw themselves in the fifteenth, seventeenth centuries and, by so doing, they contributed decisively to the formation of the modern world"

Norman Fiering. Director and Librarian Emeritus, The John Carter Library,

"The importance of the Portuguese empire in the history of mankind may be measured by the extrardinary number of people in different parts of the globe for whom to this day the Portuguese language is their mother tongue. The Lusophone world stretches from Macao to East Timor, to Goa, to Angola and Mozambuique, to Cape Vert islands and theAzores, and Brazil. Portuguese speakers outnumber nearly all other speakers of European languages. English and Spanish excepted... the economic integration of humankind, which is so overhelmingly obvious today, had its begginings under Portuguese auspices more than 500 years ago."

Prof. Felipe Fernandez Armesto, British historian, Tufts University (specialization: Atlantic; Early America; Early Modern Europe; Environmental; Global; Imperial; Intellectual; Latin America; Mediterranean; Urban)
"Portuguese Expansion in Global Context- waht difference did it make?"

"...I we ask what difference it made...if we ask how big was its effect on the world, the answer is: huge. Today's world would be unrecognizable without it"

----

The Portuguese Cultural Imprint on Sri Lanka-Shihan de Silva Jayasurya , University of London

"...Portuguese cultural traits will be perpetuated by the mainstream Sri Lankans who are neither of Portuguese descent nor Roman Catholics.
Moreover, so deeply have these influences been absorbed into the daily and unconscious behaviour of the population that it will continue in perpetuity.
As early as 1540, João de Barros, the Portuguese chronicler predicted that : « The Portuguese arms and pillars placed in Africa and Asia, and in countless isles beyond the bounds of three continents, are material things, and time may destroy them. But time will not destroy the religion, customs and language which the Portuguese have implanted in those lands » (Barros 1540)

...Sri Lanka is a paradigm of de Barros' statement. The Portuguese legacy is inseparable from contemporary Sri Lankan life"

----

(1) The Mediterranean: I highly recommend David Albufalia's "The Great Sea", (2014 edition) the first complete history of the Mediterranean/ the great civilizations and peoples of the sea, from 3500bc - until the last period 1950/2104. Albufalia is Prof. of Mediterranean history, Cambridge University.

----

Now, talking about the absurdity of claims of the (cultural/ civilizational) Nordic "superiority"...

[Condottiere 40K]

I heard the myth that Portuguese expansion was driven by the remnants of the Knights Templar.

[Mayer]

I think the discussion whose culture is superior, northern or mediterranean is silly and OT
Although urbanization started in the mediterranean (but the Arabs who brought Islam to the people they conquered were the exception and lived for a very long time as nomadic tribes), valuable contributions in craftsmanship, philosophy and science as well as heroic deeds, valour and noteworthy individual accomplishments came from both cultures and i wouldn't want to see either of them vanish, they are heritage of humanity.

"Richard the Lionheart, Helmuth von Moltke, Carl von Clausewitz, Frederick the Great, William Wallace ... etc" Umm what did a bunch of military leaders contribute? Richard the Lionheart??? - wasting his nations money ruling ineffectively?

The contribution of the military in the development of human civilization can hardly be overestimated, from conquest of new ressources and favourable positions among other countries/dominions, the establishment of a foundation for a single market and scientific exchange in conquered areas to regional self-defense (including defense of civilians and their families), cultural exchange between enemies and the social aspect of armies with diminished class boundaries and satisfactory reward/pay after service (a good fortune, citizenship, a estate or generally the personal advancement and appreciation in society). Last but not least, neither your country nor mine would exist without the valour of military men

Cheap shot really because you Greece and Spain did not give us NAZIs, Communism, WW1 or WW2 or Atomic elimination of Cities, I think that list largely rest with prefered list.

I kinda prefer nationalsocialism and marxist socialism to catholic totalism or societies in which women were treated as personal slaves or which had mandatory pederasty. Also obliteration of cities is a legacy of the United States which views itself as successor of the roman republic and the Enola Gay which dropped the first atomic bomb in a military conflict was blessed by a catholic chaplain.

[conon394]

in which women were treated as personal slaves or which had mandatory pederasty

And which society might that be?

Also obliteration of cities is a legacy of the United States

With much help and cooperation from Canada and the UK - neither of whom objected to doing the slightly more difficult way or to what the US did in Japan.

[Mayer]

And which society might that be?

Socrates wrote how in athenian society, the father wished for a attractive son, so he finds a adult male lover (erastes) because it brought great dishonour to the family if none showed interest in the young boy, pederasty was seen as a natural part of a male's coming-of-age and education (paideia) and yes it was very exploitive, as it was common that the boy later said how he hated noone more than who had been his lover.
I shouldn't start about women in Athen, they didn't even receive education, were forever considered property of the father and couldn't leave the house without a chaperone.

[Knight of Heaven]

I heard the myth that Portuguese expansion was driven by the remnants of the Knights Templar.

Myth?
You can look it that way if you want.
As you know when the Templars were disbanded, they simply didnt disapear, in most countries they instead, changed name, or formed their own Religious order organization.
In Portugal the Order of Christ, was the direct successor of the templar order. They had even the same Cross, very typicaly used in the sails of naval vessels.

Henry the navigator, the Pioneer and Patron of the age of discovery, was part of this order, besides being a prince, he also founded a professional school for sailors, and navigation way ahead of his time.
There were alot of navigation inovations, and inventions coming from this dynamic, the creation and perfectioning of the mariner's astrolabe is attributed to Portuguese navigators during the beginning of Portuguese discoveries. As well the invention of caravels, and vessel enginneering methods etc, all those things were exported to other kingdoms. Its easier to forget at the time, nation states didnt had the same meaning, it was all about royal lines and blood.
The caravel (also spelled carvel) is a light sailing ship that that was developed by the Portuguese in the late 1400's, and was used for the next 300 years. The Portuguese developed this ship to help them explore the African coast. The caravel was an improvement on older ships because it could sail very fast and also sail well into the wind (windward). Caravel planking on the hull replaced thinner, less effective planking. Caravels were broad-beamed ships that had 2 or 3 masts with square sails and a triangular sail (called a lanteen). They were up to about 65 feet long and could carry roughly 130 tons of cargo. Caravels were smaller and lighter than the later Spanish galleons (developed in the 1500's). Two of Columbus three ships were caravels (the Niña and the Pinta).



However If you like conspiracy theories the templars today survive making Portuguese beer.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I must say i prefer super bock myself.

Then they will convert the atheists.As the catholic church in the past,Islamism is a militant religion,as the catholic forced the pagan conversion,they will force yours.

The catholic church, had a hold on the state afairs, and political power. Assuming islam, grows alot in europe, what makes you think will outweight the atheists, or that as an organized religion, will hold the same level of political power?
All those assumptions, are born of a fear, and xenophobia, there is litle evidence what europe will be in this matter. All theories, and mostly half based theories. Islam its not a dominant culture in europe, its a minority. If history tell us something, is usualy the dominant culture, ends up dominating the minorities as generations come to pass. And in the cases where this minority cultures persist in isolation, they remain minority.

[conon394]

Well this sort of maybe drift OT so see below I invite to the VV for any further activity.

Socrates wrote how in athenian society

Ahh the decline of 'Western' Education... Socrates wrote nothing not jot or iota. Plato his most brilliant Philosophical student and some others (Xenophon, and some others) provide us with what Socrates supposedly said. But of course they all contradict one another on many points.

the father wished for a attractive son, so he finds a adult male lover (erastes) because it brought great dishonour to the family if none showed interest in the young boy, pederasty was seen as a natural part of a male's coming-of-age and education (paideia) and yes it was very exploitive, as it was common that the boy later said how he hated noone more than who had been his lover.

You are talking about an artifact of Aristocratic Greek culture that was neither practiced much at by any but the elites like Plato that secluded themselves from the Democracy. The fact it was not suppressed should demonstrate the actual advance of the Athenian Democracy - tolerance. Aristophanes mocked the ideal relentlessly even though he himself had an upperclass sympathy but he knew where is bread was buttered and that was the mass of lower and middle class types that enjoyed his plays...

as it was common that the boy later said how he hated noone more than who had been his lover.

Was it becuse you did a true randomized poll of dead Athenians? according to whom, when on what basis?

I shouldn't start about women in Athen, they didn't even receive education, were forever considered property of the father and couldn't leave the house without a chaperone.

Really you should because I like seeing poor Victorian era scholarship retreaded over and over again. Athenian women basically lived the same most women have right up to the Victorian era, no votes and more or less legally under the rule of father or husband.

Education was a private affair not public for both sexes. But perhaps you can go tell Phanostrate of Athens she was not educated but since she was the first known female doctor in the classical world and since Plato's references make it clear she was not an aberration and since her family built a very prominent and public and expensive grave marker for her (that is they were clearly proud and it was not defaced) I call BS.

couldn't leave the house without a chaperone.

Oh dear more Victorian drivel that has survived because re-baked it served the interests doctrinaire scholars of the Feminist and Marxists types for a good while now. So really you think all those loud fish monger women that annoyed the wealthy in comedy in the Agora were just fantasy. That female craftsmen on vase pictures or who left inscriptions on offerings in their own name and occupation or more importantly left a ton curse tables cursing rival tavern owners or gold smiths or bakers (women and men) are just a fever dream.

But hey if you really what to have this debate I am fine with a thread in the VV. Most of my books are unpacked, I have recovered a fair amount of the data I used to have to different dead PC, and have figured how to restore a bit of access to some archives like JSTOR. PM if you want to " start about women in Athens" because I am cocky I pretty sure I carry the argument.

Did you know Athens was one of the few states we know of that called female citizens - well female citizens (politis) in Attic Greek.

Again do really suppose all those women working in the Agora had a chaperone?

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...3Asection%3D30

" laws which declare that anyone who makes business in the market a reproach against any male or female citizen shall be liable to the penalties for evil-speaking"

The first lesson in history is that most everything except dates in your history text book from Civ 101 or before is wrong (or massively simplified) or in dispute (by real historians) or is (at best) the easy and convention wisdom of the day (which means it is influenced by the day) . And most of What is on the internet is mostly even worse - that is the easily accessible stuff.

[fkizz]

While their contributions to the World are worthwhile, they're insignificant compared to people like Sir Isaac Newton, Richard the Lionheart, Helmuth von Moltke, Carl von Clausewitz, Frederick the Great, William Wallace, Arthur Wellesley, Horatio Nelson, Napoleon Bonaparte, Louis Nicholas Devout, Michel Ney, Jean Lannes, Jean De Lattre, Charles De Gaulle, Jean le Rond d'Alembert, Andre-Marie Ampere, , Gustavus Adolphus, Carl Gustav Armfeldt and the list can continue on for 10+ pages. Like I said, France, the UK, Germany, Quebec and the Nordic countries are far more valuable than the Mediterranean countries in both history and economic might. If the ISIS takes out the countries I listed, Western civilisation as we know it will collapse and the world will descend into chaos and darkness.

The ones in bold, are part of latin and mediterranean culture. Did they teach you at school that Napoleon was born in Corsica, which stays in the Mediterranean? And is a mediterranean island? Napoleon is Mediterranean origin, and France is mediterranean culturally and in weather .. Didn't you know this? Didn't you know that France is a mediterranean country, and its language of Latin origin, from romance language group? Latin being the language of the former Roman Empire.

Richard the Leonheart spent most of his life defining events in mediterranean affais, as you know, the Holy Land is in middle east, which is not North Europe.

As for the others who weren't mediterrean, people such as Wellington or Clausewitz were not Swedish... Clausewitz was Prussian, Wellesley was British.. You really need to do some reading and learning.. This misplacement you do is a trainwreck.

Even on the north europeans from UK or Germany who contributed more in the 1700s, they were not Swedish. No idea why you think you are British or a German.

Even the IKEA "original" idea was already used by Portuguese Empire 400 years ago, with pre-fabrication of buildings in stone. One of your most representative firms basically copies what some mediterraneans did centuries ago, on one hand you say they are worthless, on the other, your flagship companies use their ideas.

Why are you picking mediterranean commanders´and famous people to represent "nordics"? Are you lacking in numbers? Claiming famous mediterraneas to have been nordics?

You are acting exactly like the Afrocentrists do when they claim former figures of merit were Black. (such as Hannibal)

I mean if you are going to act all nationalist-cocky (or whatever it is) at least bring something to the table that isn't an embarassing bluff my fellow cold hearted friend.

I heard the myth that Portuguese expansion was driven by the remnants of the Knights Templar.

Not a myth, and not only Portuguese Expansion, Knights Templar helped to build the country in general, Portugal was born as sort of a crusader state, so any religious military orders, Knights Hospitallers, Knights of Avis, ended up having great importance in building the country and in maritime expansion. Templars had a special spot, in Knights of Christ they went under command of a Portuguese Prince, Infante D Henrique, and many of Templar order symbols became our national symbols, due to their role in the country and us giving asylum to them.

[Lord of Nihilism]

The ones in bold, are part of latin and mediterranean culture.

France is northern European and most people acknowledge that since modern day Germany, France and the UK were responsible for defeating the mighty Roman Empire which was a Mediterranean empire.

Did they teach you at school that Napoleon was born in Corsica, which stays in the Mediterranean? And is a mediterranean island? Napoleon is Mediterranean origin, and France is mediterranean culturally and in weather .. Didn't you know this?

While he may have been born in Corsica, he was a Frenchman and I consider him French and no one can convince me otherwise.

Didn't you know that France is a mediterranean country, and its language of Latin origin, from romance language group? Latin being the language of the former Roman Empire.

France is a northern European country and while some people may consider parts of France to be Mediterranean, most people acknowledge that France is part of Northern Europe along with the UK, Germany and the Nordic countries.

Richard the Leonheart spent most of his life defining events in mediterranean affais, as you know, the Holy Land is in middle east, which is not North Europe.

Yes? So what if Richard the Lionheart spent a lot of his days fighting terrorists and enemies overseas? He's from England which is considered a northern European country as well, so if anything he deserves praise for shaping world events and proves that the Northern European countries are and were much more valuable than the Mediterranean countries. It took the greatest warrior from England to to make the Mediterranean countries realise that they weren't important, and that still holds true today. England, Normandy and etc were rich and prosperous back in the Dark Ages and beyond, and they still hold onto that wealth as we speak; what does Greece, Portugal and Spain have? Bankrupt, severe debt and a military that can't wage a war if they were to be invaded. Like I said, the ISIS conquering the Mediterranean countries won't affect me or the Germans, the British, the French and the Nordic countries.

As for the others who weren't mediterrean, people such as Wellington or Clausewitz were not Swedish... Clausewitz was Prussian, Wellesley was British.. You really need to do some reading and learning.. This misplacement you do is a trainwreck.

I think you definitely have the definition of "northern European" mixed up. The UK, France, Germany and the Nordic countries are considered northern European by most people, while countries like Spain, Portugal, Greece, Albania and etc are considered Mediterranean. With this being said, my list is completely accurate since it only includes northern Europeans and serves as a reminder that if these countries were to go away, Western civilisation would collapse and the world would descend into darkness.

Even on the north europeans from UK or Germany who contributed more in the 1700s, they were not Swedish. No idea why you think you are British or a German.

Can you re-type this using better sentence structure? I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here and I consider myself fluent in the English language.

Even the IKEA "original" idea was already used by Portuguese Empire 400 years ago, with pre-fabrication of buildings in stone. One of your most representative firms basically copies what some mediterraneans did centuries ago, on one hand you say they are worthless, on the other, your flagship companies use their ideas.

As the old saying goes "don't fix what isn't broken". I never said Portugal or whoever made absolutely no contributions, but rather those contributions paled in comparison to northern European(France, the UK, Germany and the Nordic countries) contributions. I'm not Swedish(I'm French Canadian by the way) so IKEA isn't "my" flagship company by any stretch of imagination.

Why are you picking mediterranean commanders´and famous people to represent "nordics"? Are you lacking in numbers? Claiming famous mediterraneas to have been nordics?

All of the scientists, Generals,leaders and etc I listed were northern European and not Mediterranean. There's a lot of famous Nords though which include the famous Rurik(Swedish origin) who was responsible for the creation of Kievan Rus and can technically be considered responsible for creating the Ukraine and Russia; there's also Lief Erikson who was a viking from Sweden who was the first northern European to settle in North America(Current day Canada), so not even the mighty Spanish or Portuguese was able to settle in North America, so it says a lot about how the Vikings/Nords were ahead of everyone else when it came to naval navigation. You also have the countless Vikings who conquered current day UK and Northern France who ruled over these places. A lot of places in the UK and Ireland have quite a lot of Nordic influence which is not surprising since the Vikings were essentially nobles. Last but not least you have the Norse gods and while some people consider people like Thor, Odin, Freyja, Freyr and etc to be mythologies, there are also people who believe they actually existed(Which is most likely, but their powers are over exaggerated as it is with a lot of mythologies).

You are acting exactly like the Afrocentrists do when they claim former figures of merit were Black. (such as Hannibal)

No, since i'm basing my information on available evidence by scholars, historians and professors.

I mean if you are going to act all nationalist-cocky (or whatever it is) at least bring something to the table that isn't an embarassing bluff my fellow cold hearted friend.

All of my claims can be considered fact and backed up by scholars and historians.



I honestly don't know why you're even arguing with me. I said that Spain, Portugal and Greece had worthwhile contributions to this world, but ever since Northern Europeans(France, Quebec, the UK, Germany and the Nordic countries) defeated the Roman Empire(Which was in the Mediterranean) the Mediterranean countries have been irrelevant and offered next to nothing which is why I won't care if the ISIS conquers them. Us northern European countries on the other hand have been leading this world since the collapse of the Roman Empire, and we'll continue doing so.

[Roma_Victrix]

I honestly don't know why you're even arguing with me. I said that Spain, Portugal and Greece had worthwhile contributions to this world, but ever since Northern Europeans(France, Quebec, the UK, Germany and the Nordic countries) defeated the Roman Empire(Which was in the Mediterranean) the Mediterranean countries have been irrelevant and offered next to nothing which is why I won't care if the ISIS conquers them. Us northern European countries on the other hand have been leading this world since the collapse of the Roman Empire, and we'll continue doing so.

So the 15th-century Renaissance began in Norway, not northern Italy, did it?

I'm not sure what gave you the idea that France is northern European. It's literally a country that straddles the western Mediterranean Sea and, despite the Germanic Franks that gave the country its name, is inhabited by a people who speak a Romance language based purely on Latin, the language of the ancient Romans, and is predominantly Roman Catholic like Spain, Portugal, Italy, etc.

Also, one has to stand in awe of your statement that only northern European countries have been leading civilization since the fall of the Roman Empire...apparently you fell asleep in class during that small part that explained the Portuguese and Spanish Empires establishing the world's first transoceanic trade (Columbian Exchange), circumnavigated the Earth, and colonized the globe long before the English, French, and Dutch could even dream of playing catch up.

Yes? So what is Richard the Lionheart spent a lot of his days fighting terrorists and enemies overseas? He's from England which is considered a northern European country as well, so if anything he deserves praise for shaping world events and proves that the Northern European countries are and were much more valuable than the Mediterranean countries. It took the greatest warrior from England to to make the Mediterranean countries realise that they weren't important...

The Norman king of England Richard the Lionheart should really be spoken of as Richard Coeur de Lion, since he was a man who spoke French (langue d'oïl and Occitan) and spent most his time in his Duchy of Aquitaine in southern France. Not only do you anachronistically view him as English, but also portray medieval Muslims of the Levant as "terrorists."

You know, aside from silly religious convictions and the desire of the pope to gain greater power, there were enormous economic incentives for feudal-era Catholic Western Europeans to invade the Holy Land. The latter, being a major hub and node for trade on the western end of Asia, contained avenues for gaining wealth and riches that were unthinkable to most of Western Europe's nobility at the time. For instance, Norman England had to desperately rely on the import of wealthy Jews from mainland Europe as financiers to provide much-needed capital and market liquidity into a largely undeveloped economy (yet it should be said the Anglo-Saxons were perhaps better organized than the fledgling kingdoms of Scandinavia). So I am dumbfounded as to why you think Mediterranean countries weren't more "valuable" than northern countries. In terms of sophistication and progress in scientific and technological pursuits, the Islamic world was roughly on par with the Chinese, who at this time (i.e. the Song dynasty) were inventing such profoundly modern ideas like mass printed banknotes (the world's first paper money).

That being said, the shock cavalry and feudal knights of Western Europe were the bane of the inferior lighter troops offered by the petty divided emirates of the Holy Land. In that instance Western Europeans proved to have superior capabilities in battle, much like the ancient Greek hoplite squared against the ill-equipped Persian foot soldier, or the Roman legionary against virtually everyone else around him in his respective age.

[Edelfred]

Northern Italy has been unusualy free and developed thanks to Scandinavian Longobards . They've brought European democracy into the land of olygarhies,slaves and mafia clans , and propaganda masters .Believe it or not Protestans has splitted because of every pope and their rivals put so many propaganda against each other that every pope has been named as gay,childmolester,syster/mother ..defiler etc . Obviously Dutch/German/English/Swedish burghers decided to stay away from such 'scum' .

Richard has spoken Romance , he had too many thralls from their midst .
What about Romance fanboys ,who is trying to argue that Romance is best by talking about Normans ,using Romance ,while themselves using Saxon tongue ......

[Roma_Victrix]

Northern Italy has been unusualy free and developed thanks to Scandinavian Longobards . They've brought European democracy into the land of olygarhies,slaves and mafia clans .

I don't doubt the proto-Democratic nature of some Germanic (and also Celtic) tribes, although our understanding is fuzzy since they were not literate cultures. However, the medieval republics of northern Italy, such as Genoa and Venice, were clearly born from the legacy of the ancient Roman Republic and democratic ideas from ancient Greece. We know this because Italian writers such as Machiavelli from Florence specifically cite them as the key foundations for such republics.

.Believe it or not Protestans has splitted because of every pope and their rivals put so many propaganda against each other that every pope has been named as gay,childmolester,syster/mother ..defiler etc . Obviously Dutch/German/English/Swedish burghers decided to stay away from such 'scum' .

In the age of print (thanks to Johannes Gutenberg's printing press) there were bound to be conflicting ideas about the church that could be broadcast much easier and faster than ever before. I think even without the energetic figure of Luther or his Reformation the church was bound to be split apart. The Catholic Church had already dealt with what it considered heretical movements before, such as the Cathars of France. There was no way they could have kept a lid on the new Protestants, who saw the church as the corrupt organization that it was. I don't even think Catholics today would deny Pope Paul III was a corrupt man.

Also, don't kid yourself, the Protestants were masters of propaganda themselves; look at all of Luther's tracts, woodcuts, broadsheets, hymnals, etc. supporting the Reformation. The Protestants learned most of their ways of propaganda from the best propagandist of all, the Catholic Church.

Richard has spoken Romance , he had too many thralls from their midst .
What about Romance fanboys ,who is trying to argue that Romance is best by talking about Normans ,using Romance ,while themselves using Saxon tongue ......

LOL. Yes, as an American I'm a native speaker of English, a language that's rather unique in the Germanic language family due to the fact that it was heavily infused with Norman French. The latter provided English with roughly 60% of its vocabulary derived from Latin (and to a lesser extent, Greek), the rest being Germanic and a tiny amount from other origins. You should read the post in my signature written by our TWC member Cyclops...he makes an excellent observation about this.