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Thread: Preview: If You were the Doge...

  1. #21
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Preview: If You were the Doge...


    At the Crossroads (Florence)


    You are the Podesta of the Republic of Florence. Elected and assisted by the Signoria of this proud republic you have prevailed in keeping your city's independence. You have fought off French, Imperial and Papal invasions, kept the other Italian powers at bay and finally you have managed to secure all of Tuscany under Florence's rule. From Lucca in the north via your old rival cities Pisa and Siena down to Grosseto in the south flies the red-and-silver banner with the fleur-de-lys. The people and the patricians cheer when they but hear your name, hailing you as the greatest leader Florence has ever elected. Now everything would be perfect if it wasn't for that cursed opportunity:
    The Emperor has offered you the title of Duke of Tuscany. Spain and the Pope support his offer and recognition at the high courts of Europe would thus not be a problem. Yet, accepting the title would make you a vassal of the emperor and vassals owe tribute and allegiance to the crown. The French fiercely oppose this plan and try to convince you to preserve the republican constitution, styling themselves your only supporters against the German-Spanish-Papal alliance trying to subdue you with golden chains.
    However, neither the French support for your rival Pisa nor their relentless siege of Florence itself during King Charles' campaign have been forgotten, but the same goes for the countless times the Pope tried to occupy southern Tuscany or the Spaniards' attempts to establish a foothold on your coast.
    Nobody can tell, how the populace or the Signoria might react and whether their patriotism is stronger than their republicanism. What you can tell, though, is that the Spanish fleet controls the Ligurian Sea and there are Spanish troops ready to strike stationed on Sardegna and Corsica.

    Will you accept the Emperor's proposal, gain access to Europe's highest nobility but loose full independence and risk war with France or even a widespread republican uprising, or offend the Emperor by refusing and face a Papal-Spanish invasion ready to install some Medici pretender in Florence who would be more willing to comply with their wishes?

    That's it, ladies and gentlemen. I hope you had fun thinking about renaissance politics and I hope you will have even more fun actually playing out such situations in the Italian Wars 4.0.

    Best Regards

    Iskar

    PS: If you liked this, it would be awesome if you expressed such by +rep
    Last edited by Iskar; November 05, 2014 at 09:21 AM.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Preview: If You were the Doge...

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    + rep for you, Turtler. Adding reputation was finally enabled for me (guess it's a post number threshold preventing random new accounts from spamming rep points.)


    Also, as we're nearing the release, there will be only one more scenario, involving the Republic of Florence.
    Thanks, I appreciate it. Best of luck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post

    At the Crossroads (Florence)


    You are the Podesta of the Republic of Florence. Elected and assisted by the Signoria of this proud republic you have prevailed in keeping your city's independence. You have fought off French, Imperial and Papal invasions, kept the other Italian powers at bay and finally you have managed to secure all of Tuscany under Florence's rule. From Lucca in the north via your old rival cities Pisa and Siena down to Grosseto in the south flies the red-and-silver banner with the fleur-de-lys. The people and the patricians cheer when they but hear your name, hailing you as the greatest leader Florence has ever elected. Now everything would be perfect if it wasn't for that cursed opportunity:
    The Emperor has offered you the title of Duke of Tuscany. Spain and the Pope support his offer and recognition at the high courts of Europe would thus not be a problem. Yet, accepting the title would make you a vassal of the emperor and vassals owe tribute and allegiance to the crown. The French fiercely oppose this plan and try to convince you to preserve the republican constitution, styling themselves your only supporters against the German-Spanish-Papal alliance trying to subdue you with golden chains.
    However, neither the French support for your rival Pisa nor their relentless siege of Florence itself during King Charles' campaign have been forgotten, but the same goes for the countless times the Pope tried to occupy southern Tuscany or the Spaniards' attempts to establish a foothold on your coast.
    Nobody can tell, how the populace or the Signoria might react and whether their patriotism is stronger than their republicanism. What you can tell, though, is that the Spanish fleet controls the Ligurian Sea and there are Spanish troops ready to strike stationed on Sardegna and Corsica.

    Will you accept the Emperor's proposal, gain access to Europe's highest nobility but loose full independence and risk war with France or even a widespread republican uprising, or offend the Emperor by refusing and face a Papal-Spanish invasion ready to install some Medici pretender in Florence who would be more willing to comply with their wishes?

    That's it, ladies and gentlemen. I hope you had fun thinking about renaissance politics and I hope you will have even more fun actually playing out such situations in the Italian Wars 4.0.

    Best Regards

    Iskar

    PS: If you liked this, it would be awesome if you expressed such by +rep
    As untrustworthy as the French are, they are neither a problem nor a threat to Florence or my power, be it as Podesta of a Republic or Ducato of a Duchy. The Imperials are, forming a strategic encirclement that would block expansion and even undermine defense if and when things go down. And if the Imperials have shown anything, it is that they have no hesitation on crushing (and even obliterating) Italian states if they go awry. As such, the power and security of myself, my dynasty, and Florence and its' people depend on breaking the Imperial blockade and asserting our own independence. So like it or not, they are By Far the main threat to me, and thus the natural enemy. By extension, France- and to a lesser extent Venice- are the opposite. At least for now.

    At the time, I would try and finesse the conflict with the Imperials and their demand/offer to ducalize the Republic by telling them that I will gladly accept the title of Duke of Tuscany *for myself personally*, as an honorific or sinecure rather than something that would demand the immediate abolition of Florentine republicanism; even if I am not a sincere Republican and would love nothing more than to become autocrat the fissures in Florentine conscience could be devastating, while in turn even if I am a sincere Republican I would be insane to not care for my family.

    The explanation I will give to the Imperials for this is that I fear internal stability if I move too quickly both for my own sake and for the fear of pro-French Republican sentiment (Oh the Irony); having myself able to claim the Imperial (now-honorific) title of Duke of Tuscany in a Republican Florentine background will get the Florentini used to my title and claims, and ease the way for me to gradually Ducalize the republic as the Imperials wish. Or so the story will go. Unbeknownst to them, it will also create precedent that my title exists outside of the Holy Roman Empire, and thus cannot be (effectively) revoked by either of the Dragons of the Apocalypse in Madrid or Vienna.

    In turn, I will open ties with France and Venice; they do not have many designs upon Florence or Tuscany (especially right now) and have to focus on the Imperial threat. This makes them natural choices to seek out for support if and when conflict with the Papal States and the Habsburg Empire(s) comes. To France I offer the chance for revenge from Pavia and the like as well as a solid *independent* ally in the heart of Italy that can swing the Northwestern door open for them again. To Venice I offer a secure Southern flank and a more favorable partition of Lombardy and the Romanga. To both I offer an end to Imperial hegemony in Italy, extensive financial support, and an ally on the Southern flank who can dominate Central Italy and likely beyond. In turn I ask for recognition of my Ducal and Republican titles, professional military support to build up the Tuscan military in both men and especially equipment, and support on land and Sea for my Northern flank.

    Ideally, I would like to recreate the League of Cognac and draw in England and the Swiss into my camp against the Empire along with France and Venice. The expulsion of the Swiss from Imperial Milan was a serious trauma to them, and since Milan is an Imperial fief we will share enemies. So I would hire the Swiss on in Florence using the funds in order to provide an elite pike force and train up an indigenous one. England can provide valuable sea and artillery support nipping at the Imperials on other fronts but Italy (like the low countries using their traditional involvement in Flemish trade). So to the Swiss and English I would offer the same terms I would to France and Venice, though I have less reason to hope for success and less reason they will be a direct help. Keeping these allies together will be difficult, but I will do my damnedest to do it even if it means crossing every T, dotting every I, and signing a treaty in faraway and cold England. Hopefully, the diverse support will offer me plenty of options. In terms of military I would seek to try and find the best of both worlds between Imperial Pike and Shot, the Swiss pike blocks, French cavalry and artillery juggernauts, and the like.

    If my allies need a further demonstration of Florentine/Tuscan resolve and capabilities after the nightmare that was the League of Cognac, I will tell them to watch.

    Then I will provoke a conflict with the Papal States and whatever Florentine pretenders they have, joining Venice in the conflict, while keeping relations with the Empire good (at least for now/on the surface). This way I can confront my last great rival to dominance of Central Italy without the greater threat bearing down on me (hopefully) and demonstrate Tuscan military prowess before the main event. On the foreign scene of the war I will seek nothing less than the end of the Papal States, the partition I agreed with Venice over in the Romanga, and the subjugation of any other petty states or principalities in Central Italy. Domestically I will point to the extraordinary foreign emergency demanding a strong Signora, and pass measures to strengthen its' hand and permanence as an institution on the whole *as well as* my own position. This way I will hopefully set the institutions for Tuscany to be a Great Power and to weather the storm to come while walking the line between Republicanism and Ducalism.

    Once the Papal States are crushed I will annex them, eliminate any remaining claimants against me, partition the Romanga as agreed (Venetian aid is critical), and Enter Rome as the greatest unifier Italy has seen in centuries with the aim of consolidating the conquests and integrating it and the rest of Umbria into my realm, giving me pretty much indisputable control over Central Italy while I put a religious puppet pope and Conclave in their place and let them try to heal the wounds and get what legitimacy they can before the next storm. All in all I will seek to bind the new territories to my will so that I will be able to count on the soldiers from them in what is to come.

    Then comes the true moment of truth when all the preparation is done, where I will declare my alliance with a new League of Cognac against Imperial/Habsburg dominance of Italy. If they let me be and we can accomplish this peacefully, all the better. But if not, i will prepare to send forces North to join the Swiss, French, and Venetians in overwhelming the Lombard Imperials and hopefully link up to counter any move South of the Alps by the Holy Roman Empire while directing another one to the South to attack the Spanish in the Sicilies and try to clean them out, hopefully while calling upon troops to defend my core territory in Tuscany.

    Our goal is simple. Quickly destroy the Imperials in Northern Italy and obtain dominant power over the Alpine passes to block Imperial forces moving South, and drive the Imperials out of the Adriatic to allow the Venetian and other allied navies to focus on the conflict for the Western Med. This coupled with the hopeful French (and possibly English) intervention in the Low Countries will prevent the Germans from effectively attacking in Italy, and will free me up to defeat the Spanish in the South and West, hopefully while starved of Iberian, German, and New World supplies. To this I would offer the French the oppertunity to have one of their lordlings claim the throne of the Sicilies as a vassal of myself (and if need by the French King) as well as a sizable part of Milan and Flanders, Venice dominance over Eastern Lombardy/Milan and the Croatian coast plus security from Austrian machinations in the Adriatic, Balkans, and the Alps; England supremacy over the Low Countries and their ripe, badly-needed trade. And the Swiss the ability to destroy the Swabian League and assert their power in Milan.

    If possible, I will use the authority of my papacy to hit the Imperials with interdicts, excommunications, and other punishments for their crimes and opposition.

    It will be a daring, risky move that could go disastrously wrong at any turn. It involves war with the previous masters of Italy from the last round: the superpowers of their day and a far, far more powerful force than Tuscany is. It involves letting the Venetians into Romanga and the French back into Italy. It involves warding off Habsburg amphibious attacks and marching the length of Italy. And if there is a problem or conflict between my promises to one ally and those to another, well...they can sort it out themselves. I am only enabling them to do so free of the Imperials.

    But I feel it can work. And when it does, I and my government will be able to form a new Italy. Be it as a Duchy, a Republic, or a Caesarian/Napoleonic fusion between the two that will nevertheless allow me to claim lordship over Italy, and access to the highest nobility not by Imperial slavery but by the might and merit of Florence, Tuscany, Italy, and myself alone.

    Where the story goes there.... well, your guess is as good as mine, no?

    + Rep Iskar. As always, feedback is interesting.
    Last edited by Turtler; November 07, 2014 at 05:01 AM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Preview: If You were the Doge...

    That is a superb post, Turtler. I learned a lot from it and it was compelling reading.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Preview: If You were the Doge...

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    That is a superb post, Turtler. I learned a lot from it and it was compelling reading.
    Thanks. I'm flattered. Especially to hear that from a translator. Just for feedback: what would you say you learned from it? What parts were highlights and lowlights?

    And finally, what would YOU do?
    Last edited by Turtler; November 07, 2014 at 12:38 AM.

  5. #25
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Preview: If You were the Doge...

    Amazing, Turtler! You should probably have been born 500 years earlier as the son of a certain Lorenzo M.

    Thanks again for all your very intriguing replies to these little scenarios

  6. #26
    Mausolos of Caria's Avatar Royal Satrap
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    Default Re: Preview: If You were the Doge...

    I'm really looking forward to the next release now I love the idea to use scenarios like this, which make the campaign rather unpredictable and very difficult. Also, I'm reading a book about the history of Florence at the moment, so I'm even more excited by this + Rep
    "Pompeius, after having finished the war against Mithridates, when he went to call at the house of Poseidonios, the famous teacher of philosophy, forbade the lictor to knock at the door, as was the usual custom, and he, to whom both the eastern and the western world had yielded submission, ordered the fasces to be lowered before the door of science."

    Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, 7, 112

  7. #27

    Default Re: Preview: If You were the Doge...

    I followed up a few of your historical references, such as the League of Cognac and the definition of a Papal Interdict, courtesy of professor Wiki. Also the general theme of your post gave me a framework for further reading about that era of what actually happened. I'm still quite ignorant about that time and place.

    For game play, being of republican/democratic temperament, my first inclination after reading Iskar's post was to preserve the republic at all costs. Your post provided an intriguing means and roleplay justification for doing that. In that situation I now have a better idea of what I would do.

    Purely from a Devil's Advocate point of view, and in the spirit of your post, I offer the opinion that your plan is ambitious and delicate; perhaps too much so. There are many stitches to the web you want to spin and as you say yourself
    It will be a daring, risky move that could go disastrously wrong at any turn
    In contrast to your far-sighted attention to detail for your plan for positive action, possible setbacks have been brushed aside rather lightly
    And if there is a problem or conflict between my promises to one ally and those to another, well...they can sort it out themselves
    And your moral justification for your action would make Aristotle blush
    I am only enabling them to do so free of the Imperials
    Is your plan too far-reaching? Have you equally weighted the positive actions of your plan with the negative setbacks? Finally, what value is morality in guiding our lives? Is morality an irritating obstacle to our goals, or, does it, in fact, preserve us from our follies?

    I have no gift for far-reaching planning. For each foe I face in MTW2 and mods, I try to keep to a 'one army with one goal' plan. To defend the Republic, I would immediately face two possible adversaries upon rejecting the Imperial offer: the Spanish/Papacy in the south, and possibly rebellion within. Thus, one army to sit ready within my borders. Another poised to exploit or restore whatever happens next. One more, if possible, to guard the northern borders. If wealthy enough, I'd pay tribute to the French and the Venetians. Then I cross my fingers. Assuming, of course, that I have worthwhile forces.


    EDIT: Mausolos, what is your book called? Do you recommend it?
    Last edited by Theramines; November 07, 2014 at 04:11 PM.

  8. #28
    Mausolos of Caria's Avatar Royal Satrap
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    Default Re: Preview: If You were the Doge...

    The book is just an overview admittedly, but I visited Florence in April and thought it would be time to get some fact rights. Uni kept me from reading it until this month, though, but I'm progressing nicely now (it's not too long anyway):

    http://www.chbeck.de/Reinhardt-Gesch...oduct=11256777

    To be honest I'm better acquainted with the history of Venice, though it disappointed me a bit in real life
    "Pompeius, after having finished the war against Mithridates, when he went to call at the house of Poseidonios, the famous teacher of philosophy, forbade the lictor to knock at the door, as was the usual custom, and he, to whom both the eastern and the western world had yielded submission, ordered the fasces to be lowered before the door of science."

    Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, 7, 112

  9. #29

    Default Re: Preview: If You were the Doge...

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    I followed up a few of your historical references, such as the League of Cognac and the definition of a Papal Interdict, courtesy of professor Wiki. Also the general theme of your post gave me a framework for further reading about that era of what actually happened. I'm still quite ignorant about that time and place.
    It's an honor to help, and if there's any way I could assist further, don't hesitate. I'm far more acquainted with modern history (say- Victorian onwards, especially Victorian to the Early Cold War), but I know a fair about of things in general, including the Renaissance.

    I'll admit that I've had something of an unfair advantage in many ways beyond the usual unfair advantages Total War offers (namely the ability to stomp pretty much any and every enemy in a tactical battle): I knew pretty much all of the events the examples were based on (in this case, it was Cosimo de Medici's vassalage to the Empire and the dawn of the Duchy of Tuscany). And while I didn't exactly give myself the full knowledge of what happened (like having my character know that submitting to the Empire will result in his family line and Duchy being erased in the 18th century), it did allow me to know some of the "flavor" of the times and the exact situation beyond what was purely stated.

    If the description involved the French still rampaging through Italy ala 1494 (which was long gone) for this scenario, I would've had to factor things in differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    For game play, being of republican/democratic temperament, my first inclination after reading Iskar's post was to preserve the republic at all costs.
    A bit of clarification: I'm also a staunch democratic/republican (or at least Constitutionalist; I have no problems with-say- the United Kingdom's system of government even though I am an American Republican) and free market capitalist In real life. The problem is *I'm not sure I'd actually be one in the game.*

    The Renaissance Italian republics were some of the closest things we had to modern democracy or republicanism in the time, but they were still oligarchic, clan-based messes. While many of the ideals and philosophies we do hold dear today in the West were stil there (the idea of the rule of law, division of power, capitalism, republicanism, etc) many others (like gender equality, aversion to nepotism, the citizen-soldier) were pretty much foreign to them. It was largely every clan- and especially every branch of the clan or person- out for themselves against any threats within or without, and that sort of survival need and set of allegiances makes it hard to keep a consistent ideology.

    To give you an example: I came of age with Rome I TW. In there, any Roman Player Will get into conflict with the Senate of the Republic. Even if you do not try to overthrow them immediately out of desire for power or what have you, they will start perceiving you as a threat and demanding you(r faction head) commit suicide. If you let them, they might well kill off your entire faction that way. So you are left with no real choice; either you eliminate them and establish an Empire under your Clan or you will get slowly killed over the generations. Not much choice there, no matter how much you might prefer the Roman Republic over the Roman Empire or the like (and in fact, one of the rare things I'll commend Rome II on was that it actually made it possible to stay loyal to the Republic but dominate it rather than just remove it altogether).

    That's a similar approach to what I imagine a lot of people at the time lived with, and what I took with it. It's really hard to stomach being told to lie down and Die for the good of the King/Republic/What Have You, and it's only logical to try and prevent that.

    On top of that, I don't know of any gameplay features that would push a Florentine player towards monarchy or face having themselves be devoured by their rival clans, but I don't know they don't exist. So I basically planned to accommodate for whichever approach I/my player would want to take. That doesn't mean it is what I would prefer to do IRL, but this era and setting aren't where I would like to live IRL either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    Your post provided an intriguing means and roleplay justification for doing that. In that situation I now have a better idea of what I would do.
    Glad to hear, and I'm flattered. So, what would you do? I for one am interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    Purely from a Devil's Advocate point of view, and in the spirit of your post, I offer the opinion that your plan is ambitious and delicate; perhaps too much so.
    Tell me about it.....

    More than any of the other scenarios, I feel like this one gave me the least opportunity to hedge bets, pushing me to double down and double down and double down or face catastrophe. If I wanted to go on for a bit more I might have made a few "opt out" contingencies (like accepting Imperial vassalage after the defeat of the Papal States if the diplomacy wasn't working and the Imperials looked too strong to defeat), but in the end that led me to some dead ends that I'll talk about in a bit.

    The long and short of it is that "on dangerous ground, attack." And this scenario (plus my knowledge of the time leading me to draw conclusions that aren't explicit in the text, like overwhelming Imperial dominance of Italy) pushed me to act boldly or risk losing everything sooner or later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    There are many stitches to the web you want to spin and as you say yourself In contrast to your far-sighted attention to detail for your plan for positive action, possible setbacks have been brushed aside rather lightly
    There are an ungodly number of stitches in this plan, and if anything even more potential setbacks (up to and including mercenaries putting up "Qui Fu Firenze/Here Stood Florence" on the thoroughly burned ruins of Florence and my family's ashes). I'll be the first to admit that.

    But as for "possible setbacks being brushed aside rather lightly", I was going more for a.... "Realism grafted onto Total War" rather than pure Total War Gameplay or Real Life (because if it was the former then no matter what I did, the Papal States would War Dec me or vice versa in about five turns because we border each other........). Which includes military battles. Simply put, I'm assuming that I would actually be able to confront the Imperial armies and defeat them in game without fail. That's not something that could happen in-say- a Paradox Game or Real Life and without that edge I would be planning something vastly different and more conservatively (I outright admitted in my first response "If you were the Doge..." that IRL Venice couldn't handle what I was proposing, but since it's not RL I believe it can under me).

    I hope that makes sense.

    As for the "allies" reference, I was more or less making the justification for why I don't have a problem offering the same plots of land to multiple allies (Milan/Imperial Lombardy to Venice, the Swiss, and France, Flanders to England and France, etc), like trying to sell a rug to different people. I know that a lot of my "allies" are not going to be benevolent to me or each other. I know that they cannot peacefully co-exist on the same territory like France and England happily sharing Flanders between each other.

    The key fact is that I Don't Care and I don't think they do. At the moment all of that is held by the Habsburgs, so arguing about whether Venice or France should get Milan is going to be Damn Moot because until the Empire is defeated and thrown out nobody is getting those prizes. Or even breathing space to consider going after the Empire on their own because of the Imperial encirclement.

    More than anything else, I'm offering breathing space. No matter how much we hate each other or are threatened by each other, the Empire threatens us more and has more that we want. Ergo it's best if we set aside our differences and fight against them Now, and focus on the spoils After. So if England and France want to fight a dozen wars over Flanders afterwards, who am I to care? I just need their help now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    And your moral justification for your action would make Aristotle blush
    For starters, I am not the world's biggest fan of Aristotle's morality, so I'm not nearly as turned off by that as most.

    More importantly, the thing you cite isn't a moral justification. That's a realpolitik one. I don't think I mentioned the kind of moral justifications I would use in this setting and scenario.

    By "Free" I wasn't talking about Florence leading the Great Crusade of Good to free the poor, enslaved Lombards/Frenchmen/Flemmings from Kaiser Wilhelm Franco von da Hitler IV. I am not nearly insane enough to think that very many people enjoyed freedom as we know it under Henry VIII (though I do think the Habsburgs were probably more repressive than the norm even then).

    I mean "free" in the sense of "free your hand to hold X". Removing an obstacle to give an opportunity. Pitching to them that it'll be easier to make their ambitious and (probably) mutually hostile land grabs *if the Empire is neutralized first.* Because as the overwhelming superpower(s) of its' day, it could probably defeat any one of us one on one. Moral justifications would be something else entirely, and primarily something I'd focus for to sell the unification/liberation/"liberation" in Italy rather than abroad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    Is your plan too far-reaching?
    Quite possibly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    Have you equally weighted the positive actions of your plan with the negative setbacks?
    I'm fairly confident I did. If I fail, I can expect zero mercy from the Imperials unless I can cut a deal with them or fight to a draw or near miss. I briefly mentioned how the Imperials have shown they have no problem destroying entire cities and massacreing their population singlehandedly in response to revolt. How do I know that? For starters, the initial example says this, with emphasis from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    From Lucca in the north via your old rival cities Pisa and Siena down to Grosseto in the south flies the red-and-silver banner with the fleur-de-lys.


    How did that happen to Siena in particular? Well historically, it happened because the Habsburgs supported the Medici/Florentine forces in besieging Siena. Whose city and outlying areas they practically destroyed by the time capitulation happened and the Republic of Siena vanished from the face of the Earth. i would almost certainly have both borne witness to and benefited from that, and even if it happened in a different way I would still know the Imperial track record. And have every reason to believe that if myself, my city, or my house displease them and they have them dead to rights, they will do the same to us.

    The issue is that if I choose to submit to them, we'll still be at their mercy since we're pretty thoroughly encircled; they just don't have a reason to do it yet. But if something goes wrong a few years/decades/centuries down the line, we're cooked. So if we want to safeguard our survival, we must plan more audaciously.

    Ironically, some of the most daring measures might be the safest in the long run when dealing with being under the talons of the double headed eagle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    Finally, what value is morality in guiding our lives? Is morality an irritating obstacle to our goals, or, does it, in fact, preserve us from our follies?
    This is something I steered clear of in my examples not because I don't have an opinion on it (I hope it doesn't surprise anybody to believe I think morality should be a major guiding force in our lives IRL) but again because of the sort of "gameplay/RP/historical agnosticism." I don't know *exactly* what I would be playing as, I just know the situation I'm playing in. So while I can formulate strategies easily, it would depend on what sort of character I'm playing as (a totalitarian psycho, an early Italian Washington, Machiavelli, Cosimo/a standard Renaissance don, etc).

    But broadly speaking, I do think the overall gist of my strategy is the right one almost regardless of morality, because you're still surrounded by a brutal Imperial encirclement. If you care about the people or morality, you will be concerned about them. If you think power is good and more power is better, the Imperials are in your way. If you're a complete psycho and don't give a damn about anything but yourself and your gratification or power, it's still important to note that the Imperials are by far the biggest threat *To You.* If I were doing an actual Roleplay and making a character, I would focus on the motives and morals first and figure that out, but I wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    I have no gift for far-reaching planning.
    Well, you might be surprised there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    For each foe I face in MTW2 and mods, I try to keep to a 'one army with one goal' plan.
    Interesting.. how do you mean? I generally also have one full stack army per front, though that front can be just one side of a multi-fronted war against one enemy, or multiple enemies I'm expanding into. And I generally plan to advance progressively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    To defend the Republic, I would immediately face two possible adversaries upon rejecting the Imperial offer: the Spanish/Papacy in the south, and possibly rebellion within. Thus, one army to sit ready within my borders. Another poised to exploit or restore whatever happens next. One more, if possible, to guard the northern borders. If wealthy enough, I'd pay tribute to the French and the Venetians. Then I cross my fingers. Assuming, of course, that I have worthwhile forces.
    Interesting indeed. And a very reasonable short term solution. The problem I see is that it's also what the Republic of Siena historically did. Which is why by the time of this scenario it's a subjugated, occupied state of Florentine Tuscany.

    Basically, you are just so thoroughly outnumbered by the Imperials (both Germans/HRE and Spanish) alone, nevermind the Papacy or internal problems, so just trying to defend your independence is likely to backfire because they can keep sending men and equipment foreward more than you can. So if they're dedicated to it, you're likely to get ground down holding the line. So you'd have to attack in order to hit the Imperials in their bases, staging grounds, and the like, and take them away from them to bolster yourself and prevent them from throwing as many mooks and equipment as they otherwise would at you.

    This is where I go back to my belief that "sometimes, the more aggressive/audacious plans are safer in the long run." It's a lot safer to have a besieged garrison sit behind castle walls than to have them sally out. But if you wait long enough, eventually the castle *will fall* from lack of supplies while sallying at least gives them the chance to seize the moment and make their own destiny. Though obviously, it would be a matter of waiting for the right time.

    Still, I do appreciate it indeed. And this makes me even more interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mausolos of Caria View Post
    The book is just an overview admittedly, but I visited Florence in April and thought it would be time to get some fact rights. Uni kept me from reading it until this month, though, but I'm progressing nicely now (it's not too long anyway):

    http://www.chbeck.de/Reinhardt-Gesch...oduct=11256777

    To be honest I'm better acquainted with the history of Venice, though it disappointed me a bit in real life
    I know the feeling. I'm something of a "Most Serene Republic" fanboy (along with a French/English/Scandinavian/Byzantine/etc one...), but Venice has definitely seen better days. Like a lot of the North, it's basically the historic core sitting in the middle of industrial sprawl. Just know what you're getting into first and adjust expectations accordingly.

  10. #30
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Preview: If You were the Doge...

    Quote Originally Posted by Turtler View Post
    I know the feeling. I'm something of a "Most Serene Republic" fanboy (along with a French/English/Scandinavian/Byzantine/etc one...), but Venice has definitely seen better days. Like a lot of the North, it's basically the historic core sitting in the middle of industrial sprawl. Just know what you're getting into first and adjust expectations accordingly.
    I'll immediately join that fanclub Venice, Florence, the Byzantine empire and medieval England are by far my favourite historical entities. And yeah, Venice might be a bit disappointing at first when you have the image of a glorious maritime republic in your mind, but once you find yourself wandering the alleys and piazze of the Dorsoduro or Zanipolo I promise you will be captivated by the sublime feeling of a city remembering its old glory with quiet pride while facing its slow but inevitable degradation with incredible dignity. If I wasn't a proud citizen of the Free and Imperial Hanseatic City of Cologne, I'd want to be a Venetian.

    As for the scenario above, it is true that your (Turtler's) plans are very far reaching, and I agree that simple defense is bound to just drain your resources against the imperial alliance. However, I would still have done it slightly differently, I guess.
    Being a staunch supporter of the republic I would have outright refused the Emperor's offer and, on the contrary, declared the Republic of Tuscany. The Tuscan people love their city states and their freedoms, so let them rise to defend it: Form a Tuscan Republic by giving some (minor) rights back to the local Signorie and call for a major levy of militia, to defend the land. Don't be mistaken here, Tuscan citizen militia can very well put up with most professional soldiers, and in this case they are defending their very homes, increasing their fervour even more.
    At the same time, strike an alliance with Venice, for they cannot wish to see an example of the Empire vanquishing a republic, and France, for they don't want to see an increase in Imperial power. The Appenine mountains provide a natural border to the north, so we can defend against any Imperial force that gets through the Venetian or French lines on the mountain passes with few troops. Meanwhile the Venetian fleet should disturb Spanish control of the Ligurian Sea. Perhaps we can even get Genoa on our side to provide another naval base and break Spanish maritime hegemony. Fortify the coasts to fight off Spanish landing operations (there have been stunning examples of the use of coastal artillery against attacking fleets, e.g. by Alfonso d'Este against the Venetians) and beat the Pope into submission by "liberating" as many of the central italian principalities as possible, so as to confront him with a great number of new enemies, distracting his forces, while the Florentine main force threatens Rome.
    Hopefully this will make the Emperor's alliance crumble and he will henceforth refrain from attacking our republican constitution, seeing as his expenses would heavily outweigh his gains.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Preview: If You were the Doge...

    Sorry for the delays everybody. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I'll immediately join that fanclub Venice, Florence, the Byzantine empire and medieval England are by far my favourite historical entities. And yeah, Venice might be a bit disappointing at first when you have the image of a glorious maritime republic in your mind, but once you find yourself wandering the alleys and piazze of the Dorsoduro or Zanipolo I promise you will be captivated by the sublime feeling of a city remembering its old glory with quiet pride while facing its slow but inevitable degradation with incredible dignity. If I wasn't a proud citizen of the Free and Imperial Hanseatic City of Cologne, I'd want to be a Venetian.
    Understandable indeed. But the fact that it is degrading it is a shame, and affront to that incredible dignity. I wish it would survive far more than it did.


    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    As for the scenario above, it is true that your (Turtler's) plans are very far reaching, and I agree that simple defense is bound to just drain your resources against the imperial alliance. However, I would still have done it slightly differently, I guess.
    As always, interesting to hear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Being a staunch supporter of the republic I would have outright refused the Emperor's offer and, on the contrary, declared the Republic of Tuscany. The Tuscan people love their city states and their freedoms, so let them rise to defend it:
    A very bold move, and in some ways I believe even bolder than my move. But I can certainly understand, even if it might be rather idealistic for the setting.

    But the main issue I see is this: the people of Siena and Arezzo and countless others are Tuscans, are they not? Did they not love their city states and freedoms too, and fight for them? But we still see what happened to them. Both were plowed under by Florence, and if we are following OTL closely with significant Imperial aid (especially in crushing Siena). You can rise to defend freedoms and cities all you want, but if you are not prepared you can also be cut down in the process by gun and cannon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Form a Tuscan Republic by giving some (minor) rights back to the local Signorie and call for a major levy of militia, to defend the land. Don't be mistaken here, Tuscan citizen militia can very well put up with most professional soldiers, and in this case they are defending their very homes, increasing their fervour even more.
    I am far more skeptical. I agree that the Tuscan citizen body must be the backbone of whatever military arises to fight for Tuscany and the government. But in terms of methods, I do not see it faring as well as a militia.

    e problem with militia is that they are militia. There is a reason why the Tuscan militia have historically not made a very large imprint on the stage of Italy as a whole, nevermind beyond. While they might be defending their homes, that can be as much of a problem as it is a benefit. They are usually civilians in arms, mobilized for a campaign and hastily trained and equipped according to periodic fighting, and who will likely grow skeptical of fighting if they do not see that their homes and interests are directly in danger regardless of the greater picture. On top of that, the zeal to defend home and hearth was In No Way good enough to save Arezzo or Siena. Why would it be good enough for us? They are certainly not Swiss pikes, Normon Conroi, Byzantines, Roman Legionnaires, or French and Imperial regulars. The best thing I can say for them is that they avoid the great trap that the Condottieri lay out in the form of being bought and corrupt.

    Instead, I believe that the Tuscan military must be reformed and professionalized. A modern, powerful, and far-reaching army for all seasons, for a modern, powerful, and far reaching state. Or dare I say nation? That is why I propose building off of the Tuscan militia foundations and augmenting them with the professional training and equipment of foreign powers. Hence the attempt at a "best of all worlds" approach with tightly-controlled foreign expertise. We do not want a repeat of the Condottieri.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    At the same time, strike an alliance with Venice, for they cannot wish to see an example of the Empire vanquishing a republic,
    Perhaps, but they certainly did not weigh in when Imperial armies crushed one republic after another from time to time. They remained neutral to Ezzelino da Romano, and wen the Imperials flattened the likes of Siena. So what would make them support us?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    and France, for they don't want to see an increase in Imperial power.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    The Appenine mountains provide a natural border to the north, so we can defend against any Imperial force that gets through the Venetian or French lines on the mountain passes with few troops.
    The Appenines proved inadequate for the defense of Rome, Siena, and other central Italian regions. So the issue is "what would change between them and that"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Meanwhile the Venetian fleet should disturb Spanish control of the Ligurian Sea. Perhaps we can even get Genoa on our side to provide another naval base and break Spanish maritime hegemony.
    A bold move, but one I'm not sure about Genoa. Especially since it was a traditional enemy of Venice, still smarting over Corsica, weak in terms of a war fleet (since Chiogga), and at the time heavily dominated by Imperial (especially Spanish) interests. Particularly when it came to banking. I am not saying they could not weigh in against the Empire; I just think it would be unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Fortify the coasts to fight off Spanish landing operations (there have been stunning examples of the use of coastal artillery against attacking fleets, e.g. by Alfonso d'Este against the Venetians)
    Agreed absolutely. That was definitely something I had in mind, and why I would want artillery expertise- especially Basilisks from France- ASAP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    and beat the Pope into submission by "liberating" as many of the central italian principalities as possible, so as to confront him with a great number of new enemies, distracting his forces, while the Florentine main force threatens Rome.
    Sensible, but that still poses the threat of what a balkanized central Italy would be for you when your time comes. And on top of that, it gives the enemy incentive to do the opposite. Siena and many other assimilated territories were traditionally Ghibelline; who says that Imperial and Papal money and arms could not be used to support the efforts of exiles and dissidents?


    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Hopefully this will make the Emperor's alliance crumble and he will henceforth refrain from attacking our republican constitution, seeing as his expenses would heavily outweigh his gains.
    Perhaps, and it is an interesting idea. But I do not have too much security that it would.The Imperials have spent a vast amount of time, resources, and pain trying to subjugate Italy, even in spite of more wide-reaching defeats. On top of that, the ability of the French and Venetians to resist Imperial arms is anything but certain after Pavia, St. Quentin, and the like. Which is why I made plans assuming that the Habsburgs would not only have to be repulsed in their attacks, but have their military capability broken and armed infrastructure seized to pre-empt a resumption of hostility down the line.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Preview: If You were the Doge...

    JMJ -

    Turkler and Iskar, this has been a very enjoyable read.



    YBIC
    Mike

  13. #33

    Default Re: Preview: If You were the Doge...

    JMJ -

    CORRECTIOn: Turtler (sorry typo)

    YBIC
    Mike

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