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Thread: Anthropology of Bronze Age

  1. #21
    Brivime's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    Quote Originally Posted by vlakc View Post
    About this whole indian-aryan discussion, by what people are suggesting, then all of the eastern factions (including Armenia and Persia and perhaps excluding the Caucasian factions) would have to be given a nordic-looking appearance or at least a similar appearance that the vanilla steppe nomad factions, while the Semitic factions (Phoenicia, Arabia, Babylon etc.) would use the vanilla eastern faces?

    I confess I don't know much about the subject, but I do have heard many times that northern Indians are different from southern indian because they have a different ethno-linguistic background (indo-european and dravidian respectively), but by that logic, and since Indians and Iranians are closely related, aren't the vanilla Persians wrongly depicted then? since they were given a more "semitic-looking" physique?.
    Phoenicians and Mesopotamians seem to be fairly similar if wall carvings are anything to go by. Syroid and Armenoid types.

    As for Arabians of this time they were skeletaly east Mediterranean with a mix of dinaric and syroid features.


    Yemenites would be darker skinned and have kinkier hair due to mixing Horn of Africa civilizations but still have narrow noses.

    Some examples of early semites with Dinaric/Syroid characteristics, Dinaric focusing mostly on the nose here.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  2. #22

    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    Quote Originally Posted by Brivime View Post
    Perhaps I read what you said wrong but are you suggesting the Indian army would consist of Nordic looking fellows? because mate, I can tell you first hand there is no Nordic blood flowing in India and probably never was.
    Quote Originally Posted by Türkenlouis View Post
    the Aryans were related with the Andronovo culture and knew the weapon technics like the chariots.
    Trained Elephants for war and defeated the harappa culture and the dark skinned indians. The Aryans were white like the nordic indian peoples today but really not nordic looking. I know about blue and green eyed people in northern india but this could be from every else.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 









    I am currently reading John Keay's book, India: A History.
    He cast some serious doubts over the origin and the speed in which they migrated of the "Aryans." He provided some convincing evidence based on vocabulary among other things.
    Moreover, there is little evidence that the Aryan migration caused the destruction of the Harappan civilization. The evidence provided suggest a more gradual acculturation rather than a sudden invasion. (sudden being used as a relative term)

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I am currently reading John Keay's book, India: A History.
    He cast some serious doubts over the origin and the speed in which they migrated of the "Aryans." He provided some convincing evidence based on vocabulary among other things.
    Moreover, there is little evidence that the Aryan migration caused the destruction of the Harappan civilization. The evidence provided suggest a more gradual acculturation rather than a sudden invasion. (sudden being used as a relative term)
    I think when you look at the evidence we have so far(what frustratingly little there is....)you can see a more diffused migration over a long drawn out period of time, rather than a singular invasion. The aryans were certainly not united at all, maybe different tribes had different kinds of contact with the Indus river valley culture. Some violent, some not.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    I once came across a discussion where the speaker was adamant the indo-european linkage is a result of a specific ethno-linguistic group exiting africa and spreading with their distinct dialect penetrating in all directions, and that, the distinguishing skeletal and skin colors is a result of the environment doing its work on each tribe that separated from the parent migrant group. In his version there is no european colonization of india in ancient times as is proposed by the standard version where indo-european spread starts somewhere around the eastern european steppes.

    I don't know if this is correct but if it is there would be no need for adding european looking characteristics to bronze age indian factions.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    Quote Originally Posted by La Tene View Post
    I once came across a discussion where the speaker was adamant the indo-european linkage is a result of a specific ethno-linguistic group exiting africa and spreading with their distinct dialect penetrating in all directions, and that, the distinguishing skeletal and skin colors is a result of the environment doing its work on each tribe that separated from the parent migrant group. In his version there is no european colonization of india in ancient times as is proposed by the standard version where indo-european spread starts somewhere around the eastern european steppes.

    I don't know if this is correct but if it is there would be no need for adding european looking characteristics to bronze age indian factions.
    So, he thought the indo european urheimat was in Africa?

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    That's what he is proposing. Isn't identifying the homeland of a proto-language very difficult? It seems like an incredibly complicated science.

    Many hypotheses for an Urheimat have been proposed. Mallory said,[1] "One does not ask 'where is the Indo-European homeland?' but rather 'where do they put it now?'"

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    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    Quote Originally Posted by La Tene View Post
    That's what he is proposing. Isn't identifying the homeland of a proto-language very difficult? It seems like an incredibly complicated science.
    Well, the two theories I am familiar with are the Atkinson study that places it in Anatolia, and the prevailing one that puts it in the Ponto-Caspian steppe. At AoB we have gone with the latter theory. Their is a lot of argument against the Atkinson study which you can read here off one website:
    http://www.geocurrents.info/cultural...al-linguistics

    The ponto-caspian steppe model is well accepted because it accounts for the spread of indo-european culture prehistorically rather nicely, and seems to line up with what else we know about the cultures in that area in that time.

    As for the Africa theory...I cant even think of one good reason that would support it at all. Could you maybe send me the link so I could read it? I am actually curious at this point what arguments they have.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    Theories about small groups of nordic blondes blue eyed people conquering all the peoples between Ireland and India comes from german authors around the first half of the XX century, you know, when the aryan racial discussion was so trendy up there. They even believe that the great civilizations like Egypt, Greece, Persia, India and Rome rose because of those white conquerors. Of course nowadays you can find people with blue eyes and blonde hair all around the world, almost the whole world has been colonized by Europe between centuries XV and XX.

    Guys, if we have a minimum of common sense don't make blondies units for no european civilizations.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciruelo View Post
    Theories about small groups of nordic blondes blue eyed people conquering all the peoples between Ireland and India comes from german authors around the first half of the XX century, you know, when the aryan racial discussion was so trendy up there. They even believe that the great civilizations like Egypt, Greece, Persia, India and Rome rose because of those white conquerors. Of course nowadays you can find people with blue eyes and blonde hair all around the world, almost the whole world has been colonized by Europe between centuries XV and XX.

    Guys, if we have a minimum of common sense don't make blondies units for no european civilizations.
    Drooling neo-nazi eurocentrists aside, blonde hair has existed as a genetic abnormality since at least the last ice age. It existed in europe for a long time, I think its perfectly justified to have blonde hair in the mix of models.

    That doesnt mean we will have shirtless chiseled blonde Nordics rushing from the hills, its just gonna be one out a lot of model types to add variety and represent its existence in the genetic pool at the time.

    All the sources I have seen say blonde hair evolved around the last ice age, the latest date being c. 3000 BC. Regardless there were blonde people in the Late Bronze Age European scene.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    I am an Assyrian. Most Assyrians look Semitic, I and my close family members have dark hair as well as blonde hair and red hair (and naturally bald too lol). My father is light brown skinned and is green eyed, but my mother is very light skinned (pale) and does not look Semitic. Both my father and mother had blonde haired grand parents. Several of my cousins are red headed. I am probably the most Semitic looking of all of them yet am oft mistaken for being otherwise. We are never as dark as gulf Arabs and we are usually tall. My mothers grandfather was about 7 feet tall, muscular, broad shouldered, blonde haired and blue eyed. This is by no means a generic Assyrian and should serve to demonstrate that Assyrians carry a very wide range of appearances. We look more like Armenians than anyone else (except we tend to be taller based on my experiences). We also resemble Jews and share their variety in appearances.

    Historically Assyrians have mixed with quite a few Semitic and European populations but we are primarily descendants of (and have identified as) Akkadians (Semites) Aramaeans (Semites) and Sumerians (who are native to Central and southern Mesopotamia, spoke a language Isolate and have a unknown racial group although it is almost certain they are a caucasoids. Due to slavery, rape and assimilation by immigration and annexation, many surrounding peoples such as Amorites (Semites), Elamites (another unkown racial group that is presumably Caucasoid and speak a language isolate) and Hittites (Indo_European) and Hurrians (Indo-Europeans that encompass the Mittani and Urartians) have notably contributed to our gene pool. Historically, Assyrians would have dealt more with Indo-Europeans than Babylonians however, they never considered each other different racially or culturally except by political or religious affiliations. All surviving Assyrians and Babylonians are the ones who lived in or moved to the northernmost parts of the homeland who all eventually called themselves Assyrians (following the collapse Neo-Babylonian government)

    This video demonstrates a variety with a Semitic based appearance that well represents Assyrians (including those who use the misnomers Syriacs or Chaldean). Second link is a bit extra.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk7Gyrg25VA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2UVRd7NbDsA

    As for any Neo-Nazis, Assyria and Babylonia are the heirs of Sumeria and Akkadia, All of the which, have achieved so much that only few countries can possibly rival them in their contribution to technological, scientific, martial and literary advancements. If taken as a continuous civilisation, it is probably the greatest one the world has ever seen. They were however almost if not completely void of European blood for most of recorded history (which began with them). The late European contribution to the Assyrian gene pool did not seem to demonstrate any particular effect on the progress and and achievements of Assyrians. Furthermore, surrounding Europeans peoples like the Hurrians (the Urartians and the Mittani) and the Hittites were heavily influenced by the Assyrians and eventually had large portions of their populations absorbed by them. The aftermath can even be seen in Greeks referring to the Cappadocians as "white Syrians" (meaning white coloured Assyrians). Traditional Middle eastern, Armenian and Greek dancing and religion both have Mesopotamian roots. Many famous ancient "Greek" thinkers turn out to be not so Greek such as Lucian of Samosata or Tacian, who were Assyrians writing in Greek. Others like Thales of Miletus were educated by an Egyptian tutor since childhood. Pythagoras copied the Pythagoras theorem (which was a well known fact in Mesopotamia for well over 1000 years before Pythagoras) from Babylonians and introduced it as his own upon returning from a trip to Babylon and Alexandria. Aristotles nephew oversaw the translation of Babylonian texts into Greek as Alexander marched through Babel. He supplied Aristotle with the translations which he used to study. The list goes on...Western civilisation began in Mesopotamia and Egypt....went to Greece...then Rome...then Europe. So it is not as much a history of superior genetics (as the Neo-Nazis would have it), it is more a matter of superior culture which has created superior societies. When the better culture is born, the lesser will generally succumb to it. However, I do not reject genetics as a factor of intelligence and strength, it merely appears negligible considering that In Mesopotamia in 2100 BC, the Epic of Gilgamesh was written (a remarkable piece of literature that indicated writing must have existed there some time well before it). Whereas In Germany, writing came about in 800's BC. yet today Assyrians are dying out quickly and without a homeland altogether whilst Germany is one of the most powerful nations in Europe. I don't see a any case of genetic superiority. From looking at the history of various caucasoids with distinct appearances and cultures, it seems to primarily be a combination of culture, resources, environmental factors and knowledge that make advanced people from among them.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    Quote Originally Posted by antizalfer View Post
    I am an Assyrian. Most Assyrians look Semitic, I and my close family members have dark hair as well as blonde hair and red hair (and naturally bald too lol). My father is light brown skinned and is green eyed, but my mother is very light skinned (pale) and does not look Semitic. Both my father and mother had blonde haired grand parents. Several of my cousins are red headed. I am probably the most Semitic looking of all of them yet am oft mistaken for being otherwise. We are never as dark as gulf Arabs and we are usually tall. My mothers grandfather was about 7 feet tall, muscular, broad shouldered, blonde haired and blue eyed. This is by no means a generic Assyrian and should serve to demonstrate that Assyrians carry a very wide range of appearances. We look more like Armenians than anyone else (except we tend to be taller based on my experiences). We also resemble Jews and share their variety in appearances.

    Historically Assyrians have mixed with quite a few Semitic and European populations but we are primarily descendants of (and have identified as) Akkadians (Semites) Aramaeans (Semites) and Sumerians (who are native to Central and southern Mesopotamia, spoke a language Isolate and have a unknown racial group although it is almost certain they are a caucasoids. Due to slavery, rape and assimilation by immigration and annexation, many surrounding peoples such as Amorites (Semites), Elamites (another unkown racial group that is presumably Caucasoid and speak a language isolate) and Hittites (Indo_European) and Hurrians (Indo-Europeans that encompass the Mittani and Urartians) have notably contributed to our gene pool. Historically, Assyrians would have dealt more with Indo-Europeans than Babylonians however, they never considered each other different racially or culturally except by political or religious affiliations. All surviving Assyrians and Babylonians are the ones who lived in or moved to the northernmost parts of the homeland who all eventually called themselves Assyrians (following the collapse Neo-Babylonian government)

    This video demonstrates a variety with a Semitic based appearance that well represents Assyrians (including those who use the misnomers Syriacs or Chaldean). Second link is a bit extra.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk7Gyrg25VA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2UVRd7NbDsA

    As for any Neo-Nazis, Assyria and Babylonia are the heirs of Sumeria and Akkadia, All of the which, have achieved so much that only few countries can possibly rival them in their contribution to technological, scientific, martial and literary advancements. If taken as a continuous civilisation, it is probably the greatest one the world has ever seen. They were however almost if not completely void of European blood for most of recorded history (which began with them). The late European contribution to the Assyrian gene pool did not seem to demonstrate any particular effect on the progress and and achievements of Assyrians. Furthermore, surrounding Europeans peoples like the Hurrians (the Urartians and the Mittani) and the Hittites were heavily influenced by the Assyrians and eventually had large portions of their populations absorbed by them. The aftermath can even be seen in Greeks referring to the Cappadocians as "white Syrians" (meaning white coloured Assyrians). Traditional Middle eastern, Armenian and Greek dancing and religion both have Mesopotamian roots. Many famous ancient "Greek" thinkers turn out to be not so Greek such as Lucian of Samosata or Tacian, who were Assyrians writing in Greek. Others like Thales of Miletus were educated by an Egyptian tutor since childhood. Pythagoras copied the Pythagoras theorem (which was a well known fact in Mesopotamia for well over 1000 years before Pythagoras) from Babylonians and introduced it as his own upon returning from a trip to Babylon and Alexandria. Aristotles nephew oversaw the translation of Babylonian texts into Greek as Alexander marched through Babel. He supplied Aristotle with the translations which he used to study. The list goes on...Western civilisation began in Mesopotamia and Egypt....went to Greece...then Rome...then Europe. So it is not as much a history of superior genetics (as the Neo-Nazis would have it), it is more a matter of superior culture which has created superior societies. When the better culture is born, the lesser will generally succumb to it. However, I do not reject genetics as a factor of intelligence and strength, it merely appears negligible considering that In Mesopotamia in 2100 BC, the Epic of Gilgamesh was written (a remarkable piece of literature that indicated writing must have existed there some time well before it). Whereas In Germany, writing came about in 800's BC. yet today Assyrians are dying out quickly and without a homeland altogether whilst Germany is one of the most powerful nations in Europe. I don't see a any case of genetic superiority. From looking at the history of various caucasoids with distinct appearances and cultures, it seems to primarily be a combination of culture, resources, environmental factors and knowledge that make advanced people from among them.
    What is this a response to?

    I understand some of the points made but no-one here was making racial arguements about mesopotamia as far as I am aware.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    Quote Originally Posted by Dontfearme22 View Post
    What is this a response to?

    I understand some of the points made but no-one here was making racial arguements about mesopotamia as far as I am aware.
    Sorry mate. I was just continuing from the two comments before mine. I sought to demonstrate that there is genetic variation that would include blonde hair and red hair among Mesopotamians. I just wanted to emphasise that these traits do not correlate to the success of any Mesopotamian society as some of these Aryan myths would assume. While I was at it, I decided to compare Mesopotamian civilisation to Greek and German civilisation to point out how culture seems to have played a more significant role than genetics. I think it was a bit lengthy though lol

  13. #33

    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    Quote Originally Posted by antizalfer View Post
    Sorry mate. I was just continuing from the two comments before mine. I sought to demonstrate that there is genetic variation that would include blonde hair and red hair among Mesopotamians. I just wanted to emphasise that these traits do not correlate to the success of any Mesopotamian society as some of these Aryan myths would assume. While I was at it, I decided to compare Mesopotamian civilisation to Greek and German civilisation to point out how culture seems to have played a more significant role than genetics. I think it was a bit lengthy though lol
    Modern phenotypes of Assyrians are probably not the best sample group to determine the appearance of Assyrians living during the bronze age, thats just my take. On another note, my girlfriend is Assyrian (both her parents from Iraq) and she speaks Chaldean so I've been around a bunch of different Assyrians over the past couple years. I do agree there is a lot of variation there but I wouldn't necessarily say "blonde" as its really a very light brown and the red, a brown-ish strawberry blonde. They do have a WIDE variety of skin tones; however.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    Quote Originally Posted by Massicio2 View Post
    Modern phenotypes of Assyrians are probably not the best sample group to determine the appearance of Assyrians living during the bronze age, thats just my take. On another note, my girlfriend is Assyrian (both her parents from Iraq) and she speaks Chaldean so I've been around a bunch of different Assyrians over the past couple years. I do agree there is a lot of variation there but I wouldn't necessarily say "blonde" as its really a very light brown and the red, a brown-ish strawberry blonde. They do have a WIDE variety of skin tones; however.
    In my long post (just a couple comments prior) I tried to explain how Europeans have contributed to the Assyrian gene pool since they have fought with the Hittites and Hurrians. It is not very common but there definitely are blonde Assyrians as well as light brown like the type you've probably seen.

    On that other note, your girlfriend is not only Assyrian but speaks Assyrian (modern). So called "Chaldeans" call their langauge surit or surith just like Assyrians, in fact there is no difference between us. Surit translates to Syriac and etymologically, is a shortened form of Assyrian that appeared during Alexander's Empire. Any Assyrians that became Catholic in the 16th century and shortly after were eventually erroneously named Chaldean by the Catholic Church in 1683. There were no Chaldeans before that aside from a people who spoke a completely unknown Semitic language and were absorbed into Babylonian society long ago. The word Chaldean in any comprehensive Assyrian dictionary (Chadeans share the same dictionaries) would say that the word Chaldean means: a diviner, fortune teller, magician, astrologer, channeler etc. It was also traditionally a derogatory term until the Catholic Church decided to call Assyrians Chaldean. The first people to call themselves Chaldean were the clergy who initially called themselves Chaldean Catholic Assyrians. Some "Chaldeans" correctly denounce the name and have adopted Assyrian as their name again. There is also a similar problem with the word "Syriac/Syriani/Suriani" which is used to erroneously designate Assyrians who speak a western dialect.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Anthropology of Bronze Age

    Quote Originally Posted by antizalfer View Post
    In my long post (just a couple comments prior) I tried to explain how Europeans have contributed to the Assyrian gene pool since they have fought with the Hittites and Hurrians. It is not very common but there definitely are blonde Assyrians as well as light brown like the type you've probably seen.

    On that other note, your girlfriend is not only Assyrian but speaks Assyrian (modern). So called "Chaldeans" call their langauge surit or surith just like Assyrians, in fact there is no difference between us. Surit translates to Syriac and etymologically, is a shortened form of Assyrian that appeared during Alexander's Empire. Any Assyrians that became Catholic in the 16th century and shortly after were eventually erroneously named Chaldean by the Catholic Church in 1683. There were no Chaldeans before that aside from a people who spoke a completely unknown Semitic language and were absorbed into Babylonian society long ago. The word Chaldean in any comprehensive Assyrian dictionary (Chadeans share the same dictionaries) would say that the word Chaldean means: a diviner, fortune teller, magician, astrologer, channeler etc. It was also traditionally a derogatory term until the Catholic Church decided to call Assyrians Chaldean. The first people to call themselves Chaldean were the clergy who initially called themselves Chaldean Catholic Assyrians. Some "Chaldeans" correctly denounce the name and have adopted Assyrian as their name again. There is also a similar problem with the word "Syriac/Syriani/Suriani" which is used to erroneously designate Assyrians who speak a western dialect.
    Ok, I have to clarify something. Indo-European =/= european.

    The Hittites were Indo-European yes, but remember the Urheimet for the entire Proto Indo-European culture was in the Ponto-caspian steppe, not inner Europe. From there a good sizable chunk of the first migratory Indo-Europeans diffused through the Caucasus and through the Kazakh steppe south and east. Only one early branch entered Europe.

    The Hittites most likely descended from peoples moving through the Caucasus, not Europe(although...there are some theories saying Indo-Europeans from Anatolia formed the Pelagasian substrate in Greece, but thats the other direction.)

    The Hurrians are not Indo-European, they spoke a completely different language that existed in its own language family, that also contained Urartian. As for genetics, besides coming from the Southern Caucasus, the same region many Indo-Europeans passed through, I am unaware of any Indo-European influence on their ethnic makeup, the Mitanni substrate being a very unique exception(but that only existed as a separate class above the Hurrian population)

    If you have any sources debating this let me know.

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