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Thread: [Decision] Historical Community

  1. #1

    Default [Decision] Historical Community

    Supporters: Quintus Hortensius Hortalus | Augustus Lucifer | alecwermuth

    Proposal



    Hello, this idea has been sitting on my shelf for well over a year now. I have shared it with a few people here and there. In light of some of the suggestions made here, I thought I share it with the community at this time.

    Below is a proposal I have been working on to have the Archivum officially part of TWC. I also have an idea about having a Codices- a repository for primary documents available online.

    The Archivum is a repository of sources member can use to research the various areas they mod, write AARs or articles. It can be a very useful tool. I have personally spent hours collecting the information I have and I only collected about 1/20th of the information available at various locations on the forum.

    The one objection I’d received was that content has a hard enough time finding volunteers and this proposal would further strain the pool of potential volunteers. However, I feel the people who would express an interest in being part of this are a different “stock” of person who would volunteer for content.

    A secondary function is to bring together a historical community. Currently, the forums listed below are spread across the entire site. By putting everything “under one roof” would bring these members together and allow for the development of another community. Since TW games are historical based, there is no reason why TWC should not fully embraced this community and provide a single location for people together discuss everything related to the subject.

    Details Explained
    Questions asked with answers in thread

    The question is can we make a decision and can we implement it and appoint responsibilities to do so?
    Ultimately, any decision made by the Curia must meet the admin's approval.
    If there is no objections to the modding community I do not see any reason to object to this idea either. The lone exception would be the Archivum and the Archivist as this will created the use of site resources.

    How could the problem be solved of the developers forum with all the research that is so much fragmented all over the place.
    The proposal sets about to accomplish the same purpose as the Modding community proposal. It brings like- minded individuals together. The Historical Research areas are scattered and in a separate sub forum with the modding forum right now, so moving it so that they are all together will not create any additional burden. However, the increase visibility will promote its usefulness which will be more beneficial to the community at large.

    What advantage will this history forum give?
    TWC is more than just a gaming site. It provides excellent content as well. If you get an opportunity to read some of the content you will gain the same appreciation for as I have. Since TW games are history base, it is logical this site should promote the discussion of historical topics. Moreover as mods and AARs work to become more historically accurate having a single place for historical discussion can only facilitate further discussion and development of this under appreciated area of the forum. It is very much an "undiscovered country" on TWC.

    What will be the ultimate incentive to start using the history forum over the developers forum.
    First, I do not think one should be used more than the other.
    Second, the two should and ought to compliment each other. This is one of the reasons why I "dusted off this idea" and presented it now. This seems as good as time as any. It doesn't make any sense to collate all of the modding forums while keeping the historical research/ history forums scattered among the various sub forums.

    Explanation of the Archivists Duties and Responsibilities
    The Archivist would be "librarians" of the repository.
    The resources are not just websites, but also other mediums, like books, journals, etc... If you click on my signature you can view my "private/public" repository.
    Sources will be cataloged by time periods and maintained by an archivist. The repository would be publicly accessible, however the role of the archivist would be to be an expert on what and where things are located. As far as the quality or reliability of the source, this would initially be the job of the individual researcher who recommend sources that should be included in the repository. Over time, the archivist as a group will over see the quality of the sources included in the repository; and, eventually, it would be expected that the archivist would go searching for quality sources.

    Summary of Archivists Duties and Responsibilities

    1. Archivist will be responsible for collecting and maintaining the repository in their respective fields.
    2. There will be at least one archivist per period (including Asia and Naval Research)
    3. Searching for quality sources.
    4. Quality control would increasingly become the role of the archivists as a group.
    5. Archivists would act as LM in their respective areas facilitating productive discussion and reporting any ToS violations.


    The Archivist wouldn't just be any member of the site. The person would be expected to be well informed about the period he/she is responsible for.


    ======================================================================================================
    TW History Center

    Archivum [new]{Repository for websites, books, and other resources for historical research.}
    ---Secretum [new] {A place for Archivists to gather and discuss matters in private.}
    ---College of History [moved from VV] {This forum is for the pursuit of academic discussion and debate. All members are welcome but they will be held to a higher standard of civility and academic integrity.}
    ---Archaeology & Culture Forum [moved from VV]{The place where people can read/study articles about the historical human cultures through the recovery, documentation, analysis, and interpretation of material culture and environmental data, including architecture, artifacts, biofacts, and landscapes.}

    Historical Research Center {A forum for historical research covering the TW games' period. Please try to provide sources.
    ---Ancient Period [moved from Rome II General Discussion and renamed] {A forum for historical research covering Ancient Period in Europe and the Mediterranean World: 4th Millennium BCE to 5th Century CE}
    ------Naval History[4]{{If Needed}} [new] {Forum for historical research on ships and naval power throughout history }
    ---Medieval Period [1] [new] {A forum for historical research covering Medieval period from the 5th Century to the 15th Century.}
    ---Modern Period [moved from Empire General Discussion and renamed] {A forum for historical research covering the time period from the 16th to 18th Century.}
    ------Naval History[4] [Moved from Historical Research Forum from the Empire Forum] {Forum for historical research on ships and naval power throughout history }
    ---Napoleonic Age[2] [moved from Napoleon General Discussion and renamed] {A forum for historical research covering the game’s Napoleon era from 1792- 1815.}
    ---Contemporary Period[2] [new]{A forum for historical research covering modern after Napoleonic Era to Contemporary era from 1815 to the present.}
    ------Naval History[4]{{If Needed}} [new] {Forum for historical research on ships and naval power throughout history }
    ---Asian History[3][Moved from Shogun II General Discussion and renamed] {A forum for historical research covering Asian history from Ancient to Contemporary periods.}
    ------Naval History[4]{{If Needed}} [new] {Forum for historical research on ships and naval power throughout history }

    Vestigia Vetustatis[5] [all below moved from D&D] {A place to discuss history.}
    ---The Living Past {This is a forum where you can post photographs of your local historical places that have sparked the flame of interest in history.}
    ---Alternative History {For the discussion and posting of topics that discuss alternate or hypothetical historical events or persons.}
    ---Military History/ Wars & Battles [Moved from Historical Research Forum from the Empire Forum]{A forum to discuss the wars and battles.}

    ======================================================================================================

    Additional Notes:
    [1] Medieval Total War General Discussion forum does not have a Historical Research Center, so one was created to allow for discussion of this period in history.
    [2] Contemporary Period was added to the list to accommodate the mods that cover the period post the Napoleonic Age. If for some reason the technical staff prefer to not add another forum to the list, the Napoleonic Period will be added to the Contemporary period.
    [3]Asian History forum is moved from the Shogun II General Discussion Forum. Also, it can be a place for discussion of Chinese, Korean, SE Asian, Indian and Steppe peoples histories throughout time. However, it will primarily cover the Ancient, Medieval, and High modern periods.
    [4] Naval History forum was moved from the Empire Research Center Forum within the General Discussion forum. With the inclusion of naval combat in new Total War games I expanded this forum to include these new areas rather than create a new sub- forum for each time period. HOWEVER, Due its unpopularity, I moved it back as a sub- forum. I also added the same sub- forum for Total War games that have naval ships. It is an optional sub- forum in these cases.
    [5] The VV was split. The sub- forum removed are for high academic discussion. Moving it to the Archivum would give the Archivist direct control. Since the issue would be qualitative discussion then it is unlikely to be any ToS violations in these forums. The Archivists role would be to ensure the quality not monitor adherence to the ToS. However, as noted above, Archivist would be responsible for reporting ToS for moderating, but also to guide the discussion into a more productive discourse.




    What are your thoughts?
    Last edited by PikeStance; July 21, 2014 at 09:13 AM.

  2. #2
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    I think I've posted before long time ago. I would prefer that Historical Section for games be separated from Vestigia Vetustatis as of now. Even Historical Section between RTW and Rome 2 should be separated even if both basically in the same era.


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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    I think I've posted before long time ago. I would prefer that Historical Section for games be separated from Vestigia Vetustatis as of now. Even Historical Section between RTW and Rome 2 should be separated even if both basically in the same era.
    I would be very interested if you would elaborate on your points here. Thanks

  4. #4
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    For example, give me all the info about Hastati which I can use in RTW and also an info which I can use in Rome II.

    *Hastati again, I know. Can't think fo anything else.


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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    For example, give me all the info about Hastati which I can use in RTW and also an info which I can use in Rome II.
    *Hastati again, I know. Can't think fo anything else.
    I didn't ask for you to give me an example, but to elaborate....


    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    I think I've posted before long time ago. I would prefer that Historical Section for games be separated from Vestigia Vetustatis as of now.
    What do you mean by "as of now?" What will change that will make it a viable and desired change in your mind. What is your rationale in general for separating them out?


    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    Even Historical Section between RTW and Rome 2 should be separated even if both basically in the same era.
    I do not know the RTW start date so I do not know the difference in time period. I know Rome II covers a wider time frame, but it starts in the Roman Republic period. I believe so does RTW,..does it not? Moreover, specific modding questions would fall under the modding, not history. For example, when I did research for my battle mechanic, I researched how battles were fought. I only concern myself with what I can do as a mod later; after the research.

    Anyway, I am still not sure what you mean.... if you can elaborate and not with just an example, it would be most helpful

    Thanks

  6. #6
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    I don't think I need to elaborate anything. Historical discussions about games are related to history that can be applied to the game engine, modding or vanilla. VV is and always for serious historical discussions and all. Historical discussions in games are exactly that.

    As of now, means as of what we're having right now. VV which is of no use to me and games Historical Discussion which I venture from time to time.


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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    I don't think I need to elaborate anything.
    And yet you did,... but....

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    Historical discussions about games are related to history that can be applied to the game engine, modding or vanilla.
    Exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    VV is and always for serious historical discussions and all. Historical discussions in games are exactly that.
    I am not sure what you mean. I consider both areas incline to discuss serious history. At least, I approached all historical discussion as serious.
    VV is general history discussion. It is mot often a debate. Historical research can be that way as well. However, it is usually directed at specific aspects of history related to TW mods and AARs. This is why there two separate forums for both types of discussions. The above proposal changes nothing in that regards. I am not sure why you are interpreting as such.


    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    As of now, means as of what we're having right now. VV which is of no use to me and games Historical Discussion which I venture from time to time.
    Again, I am not sure what you mean here. I fail to see how the above proposal changes anything. The two areas are not combined. They are just simply placed in one location for historically minded people can interact and discuss more easily. If you are looking for historical research, you wouldn't have any more difficult type finding where to go. In fact, it should make it much easier, not harder.

    So far you stated you don't like it, but your rationale for not liking it is its strength.

  8. #8

    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    This is from the Modding Community thread
    About your history thread, I support the idea of course! The question is can we make a decision and can we implement it and appoint responsibilities to do so? And how could the problem be solved of the developers forum with all the research that is so much fragmented all over the place. What advantage will this history forum give? What will be the ultimate incentive to start using the history forum over the developers forum. I think thats the most important question concerning this topic. And finally there is the question left about admining the history forum. Developers usually all have the wish to be able to admin their content.
    The question is can we make a decision and can we implement it and appoint responsibilities to do so?
    Ultimately, any decision made by the Curia must meet the admin's approval.
    If there is no objections to the modding community I do not see any reason to object to this idea either. The lone exception would be the Archivum and the Archivist as this will created the use of site resources.

    How could the problem be solved of the developers forum with all the research that is so much fragmented all over the place.
    The proposal sets about to accomplish the same purpose as the Modding community proposal. It brings like- minded individuals together. The Historical Research areas are scattered and in a separate sub forum with the modding forum right now, so moving it so that they are all together will not create any additional burden. However, the increase visibility will promote its usefulness which will be more beneficial to the community at large.

    What advantage will this history forum give?
    TWC is more than just a gaming site. It provides excellent content as well. If you get an opportunity to read some of the content you will gain the same appreciation for as I have. Since TW games are history base, it is logical this site should promote the discussion of historical topics. Moreover as mods and AARs work to become more historically accurate having a single place for historical discussion can only facilitate further discussion and development of this under appreciated area of the forum. It is very much an "undiscovered country" on TWC.

    What will be the ultimate incentive to start using the history forum over the developers forum.
    First, I do not think one should be used more than the other.
    Second, the two should and ought to compliment each other. This is one of the reasons why I "dusted off this idea" and presented it now. This seems as good as time as any. It doesn't make any sense to coallate all of the modding forums while keeping the historical research/ history forums scattered among the various sub forums.

  9. #9
    Quintus Hortensius Hortalus's Avatar Lex duodecim tabularum
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    Personally I like your idea Pike. But why seprate the Napoleonic era from the 18th century? In my eyes the break should be after the 100 days.

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  10. #10

    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Hortensius Hortalus View Post
    Personally I like your idea Pike. But why seprate the Napoleonic era from the 18th century? In my eyes the break should be after the 100 days.
    There are essentially two watershed moments; The Peace of Westphalia and the start of the French Revolution. Both time periods are study by two separate groups of people. Specifically, the Napoleonic Age (or era) which is a unique time period. It just makes logical sense to separate the two time periods. Moreover, they coincide nicely with the release games.

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    Quintus Hortensius Hortalus's Avatar Lex duodecim tabularum
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    There are essentially two watershed moments; The Peace of Westphalia and the start of the French Revolution. Both time periods are study by two separate groups of people. Specifically, the Napoleonic Age (or era) which is a unique time period. It just makes logical sense to separate the two time periods. Moreover, they coincide nicely with the release games.
    AAll right I can live with that. But then please clearify that the 18th century "ends" with the Frensh Revolution.

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    GrnEyedDvl's Avatar Liberalism is a Socially Transmitted Disease
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    I am not opposed to rearranging some of this.

    If there is no objections to the modding community I do not see any reason to object to this idea either. The lone exception would be the Archivum and the Archivist as this will created the use of site resources.
    Well its all site resources, but I assume you are meaning with the creation of a user group? Just so you know adding forums has basically the same impact as adding a user group. When you view a thread the software has to parse the permissions for every user group for that forum you are in. 100 user groups x 1200 forums adds up, but that's another discussion.

    One more user group isn't a problem but if we are putting this under Content we don't need another user group. We can just use the ones we currently have. The Secretum would just be a subforum under the Content staff forums instead of where you placed it at.


    Basically you are suggesting we add 1 Section, 1 user group, and 3 forums and then move stuff around a bit, with the goal of making stuff easier to find. If its easier to find then maybe it will get more traffic. That part makes sense to me. I might be ok with having a new section on the index for the TWC History Center but I will have to mull that over a bit. The forum index is pretty crowded as it is and I am pretty stingy about putting stuff on the main index. It never gets smaller, it only gets bigger. And its going to continue to get bigger as the TW series progresses.

  13. #13
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    Historical research center makes sens and I would support but splitting the VV in half is not a good idea.
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  14. #14
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    Quote Originally Posted by GrnEyedDvl View Post
    The forum index is pretty crowded as it is and I am pretty stingy about putting stuff on the main index. It never gets smaller, it only gets bigger. And its going to continue to get bigger as the TW series progresses.
    Not sure what you mean, it looks pretty small to me.



    This is completely off-topic but I do think we'd be better served moving to a grid based two-column image index with categories as the titles. It would clean up a lot of clutter and trade one click for a massive amount of scrolling. It'd also be a lot more mobile friendly. Or at least a skin where that's an option.

    The historical section idea seems sounds overall.
    Last edited by Augustus Lucifer; July 02, 2014 at 06:44 AM.

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    Shankbot de Bodemloze's Avatar From the Writers Study!
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    Or make how you have it now as the default, and just make a more noticeable expand button?
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    Quote Originally Posted by GrnEyedDvl View Post
    I am not opposed to rearranging some of this.
    Well its all site resources, but I assume you are meaning with the creation of a user group? Just so you know adding forums has basically the same impact as adding a user group. When you view a thread the software has to parse the permissions for every user group for that forum you are in. 100 user groups x 1200 forums adds up, but that's another discussion.
    Know any good websites that gives the basics on how forums work... I am bit curious now.


    Quote Originally Posted by GrnEyedDvl View Post
    One more user group isn't a problem but if we are putting this under Content we don't need another user group. We can just use the ones we currently have. The Secretum would just be a subforum under the Content staff forums instead of where you placed it at.
    I basically pattern the whole idea based on the Librarian/ Scriptorium set up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Historical research center makes sens and I would support but splitting the VV in half is not a good idea.
    I would be interested to know why it is a bad idea?
    I essentially removed the more academic sub forums out of the VV in put directly under the Archivists supervision. Since the standards are much higher (or ought to be) ToS would be something that would not be a serious problem, but poor academic research would be.

    Again, nothing I proposed is etched in stone. My main goal is to make these sub forums more visible and utilized. Personally, the whole thing would compliment each other nicely.

  17. #17
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: [Discussion] Historical Community

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Know any good websites that gives the basics on how forums work... I am bit curious now.
    Looking up how forums work in general won't do you much good, the problem is related to the way vBulletin caches information and loads it. It stores a separate permission set for every forum paired with every usergroup unless there are no custom permissions set in a forum. So if we have 100 user groups and 1200 forums, then every user group adds 1200 entries to the cache, and every forum adds 100 entries, assuming no optimizations. I think Sim did some reductions to it, but don't recall the specifics. Anyways, that's the general idea, no need to clog this thread with technical discussions.

    Here's a link: http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/datastore
    Last edited by Augustus Lucifer; July 09, 2014 at 04:10 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: [Decision] Historical Community

    Are there any other supporters or thoughts on the matter???

  19. #19
    wangrin's Avatar Unguibus et Rostro
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    Default Re: [Decision] Historical Community

    I agree that thread and sub-forums about History should be reorganized.
    It's quite a mess to search for information or discussion right now as the search engine look like being quite broken for me...

    To reorganized, you have to look at :

    • thread type : "library" (a place to collect and organize internet links, bibliography, etc.), "forum" (a place to discuss about historical topics)
    • period : antiquity, middle-age, etc.



    The organization should not be too much complex, nor detailed.

    For example, do we need a dedicated "Asian History" subforum when we would have ancient, middle-age, modern subforums ?
    Asia history is as rich, if not more, than its European counterpart.

    It is where I think that tags would be needed :

    • geographic area tag : World / Africa / Americas / Asia / Europe / Mediterranean / Middle East, etc.
    • period tag : Antiquity (early / middle /late) / Middle Age (early / middle /late) / Modern period (early / middle / contemporary) (classic periodization, an Eurocentric one)
    • topic type : military / strategy / tactic / naval / economy / politic / etc.




    So, I would see, as proposed by PikeStance, two main sub-forums :

    • Archivum : Repository for websites, books, and other resources for historical research, likely organized depending of main historical periods
    • Vestigia Vetustatis : A forum for historical research, organized depending of main historical periods
      • Antiquity (up to 476AD)
      • Middle Age (476-1453 or 1492)
      • Modern period (1453 or 1492 - 1789 or 1815)
      • Contemporary period (1789 or 1815 - today)


    It would be important to create a link between these sub-forums and modding forums.

    Most of the time, Historical discussions about games and related to history that can be applied to the game engine take place inside mod's subforums.
    As I understand PikeStance's proposition, the "Historical Community" would be the central place to store informations that will "feed" discussions in Mod's or Modding Workshop sub-forum about "how to represent historical facts in game.


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  20. #20
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: [Decision] Historical Community

    I'd ask a question though perhaps it's already been answered (am a bit knackered today, had to hand in an assignment and it was right down the grill due to the fact group assignments are a stupid idea because hardly anyone does the work and it all gets dumped on one person just before the due date- 5 times now this has happened!). Would you need extra moderators for this? I see the idea of the Archivists dealing with things, but the difficulty here, especially as your taking most/all of the VV basically is your going to get one of the potentially hottest areas for debate and trouble (especially combined with the history sections of all the TWC games). It's potentially more volatile than the mudpit.

    I like the idea of keeping all the history sections in one place. But i'd perhaps go for just moving it all into the D&D as a subsection- History Center. As that's pretty much what your saying here. A place for discussion and research. With is what the D&D really already is.
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