'Star Wars' discussions

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I think both are true since Revan was not orthodox in his fighting either. In combat he would change his style and approach to completely throw his opponent off game and then crush them with his overwhelming control of the Force. A really skilled fighter would have thrown him on his back foot but he always had the means to retaliate. Like when he redirected Darth Nihirus' lightning and burnt her to literal ash.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Darth Nyriss. Yeah he did the Yoda thing and then shot it back at her.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Epic twist/spoiler ahead!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Love Mountain]

How would Vader match up against someone like Darth Krayt?

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Vader would get murdered no doubt about it. Darth Kraayt has a century of experience under his belt; fought Anakin Skywalker and Obi-wan, survived Order 66, received some training from Luke Skywalker, survived the Yuuzhang Vong, created his own Sith Order with multiple followers in which he was the only Sith Lord and then perpetrated one of the most epic take overs in Star Wars history by walking into Emperor Roan Fel's palace and then making himself Emperor of the whole galaxy. Not to mention that when he fought Cade Skywalker and his treacherous apprentices he was killed and then somehow willed himself back from the dead. Kraayt's lightning alone could probably kill Vader and he could probably defeat Jacen and Jaina Solo. Maybe the only ones who could give him a run for his money are Valkorion and Luke Skywalker. But he is also very proficient in unorthodox Force abilities and a very strong warrior so he does not have the hindrance of someone like Palpatine or Valkorion who are mostly wizards or someone like Kenobi or every other Jedi who are basically sword fighters. Cade Skywalker himself had to do some very contrived things in order to defeat this guy. The only other person to defeat him head on was the ancient Jedi Celeste Morne who had her power greatly enhanced by the Muur Talisman.
When it comes to powerful Force sensitives Darth Kraayt is basically up there in the God Tier category where not even Darth Vader can be found. Though the interesting thing about Kraayt is that getting there literally took him a century in which he was subjected to all sorts of punishment and torture. He was not a natural prodigy the way that Valkorion, Anakin and Revan were.

[Inhuman One]

Well to me Darth Vader is not that powerful, based on the original trilogy it appears that he is mostly that powerful because the jedi are pretty much wiped out. The ones that still live at that point seem to be too old and feeble to challenge him, and Luke is still learning. However Luke does defeat him after some years of training.

Sadly there are a lot of Darth Vader fanboys eager to make him overpowered in other stories though. To me it seems that pretty much any fully trained Jedi would have been enough to best him in battle because they would not be hindered by a suit and would not be part machine.
HOWEVER I do think that he would be the kind who could outwit his opponents and find other ways to defeat those he can't beat in battle.
Sadly, fanboys want him to be great at everything, and by that they just make him boring.

To me it seems he is greatly feared because, as far as the galaxy knows, Darth Vader is the only person with force powers and who can wield a lightsaber. the emperor keeps his force sensitivity hidden after all, and the remaining Jedi are in hiding.
He's practically the only wizard in a world without magic.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Celeste Morne killed Krayt, yep. But she harnessed the power of the ancient Sith Lord Karness Murr. I should mention she almost defeated Vader and did defeat Luke Skywalker.

I wouldn't say Krayt is that OP though. Revan would kill him, so could Exar Kun and Bane. Some of the great Jedi might be able to as well, like Satele Shan, Meetra Surik, Nomi Sunrider, etc.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I think the talisman did most of the work. Since judging by Knights of the Old Republic Celeste Morne was not actually that powerful. She was a decent combatant but not amazing and in terms of her Force abilities she seems about above average.

Krayt is ridiculously OP because of his insane powers though, his actual power is not Valkorion levels or anything but he has some crazy as abilities. Also as a combatant I would say he has to be about Darth Vader's level, the guy is more or less the same kind of tank by with far more mobility and speed. Though if Revan could take him I would say yes, but not really judging by the book since the book does whatever it wants with Revan at any given time. We know for a fact that Revan was even stronger than Nihilus, Kreia and Sion (though they were not too far behind). I would say that the only ones on the same level to Revan would be Valkorion but maybe even Krayt, Luke, Jacen, Jaina, Arcann, Vaylin and Palpatine as well as any number of other OP Sith Lords. Honestly pinning down Bane and Zannah is rather hard because Bane certainly had his limitations, so much that I don't see him on Revan's level but Zannah gets most of her points in sorcery. Plagueis was extremely powerful but not a fighter where as Palpatine was shown to be inherently powerful where even the plants around him would wither and die and seemingly having more raw power at a young age than Plagueis had ever demonstrated in his whole life. Not sure about Exar Kun to be honest; as a fighter he was on par with Ulic but as a Force wielder he certainly surpassed Ulic.

When it comes to the Jedi then Vader was stronger than all of his contemporaries. As a Force wielder only Mace Windu, Yoda and on occasion Kenobi and Dooku demonstrated power on that level. But Vader unlike Anakin had raw power which he could wield while being in control. The issue with Vader and his feats is that he had no one to use his power on. Usually he would take on a few lower level Jedi. But strong opponents the only one who could definitely defeat him was Palpatine (arguably he was too old) where as Yoda and Obi-wan probably could not compete long term due to their old age. So really we only get to see Vader using Luke as his whipping boy. He was extremely strong no doubt about it, but extremely limited in his abilities so he had very few of the amazing feats that someone like Valkorion, Revan, Bane, Zannah etc. Vader essentially turned into an offensive melee tank that couldn't really be stopped or knocked down. Slow and steady but he will cut you down.
The really strong Jedi tend to be combatants but there are a few who are inherently strong in the Force or experienced enough to develop their skill. Odan Urr, Vodo Siosk Baas, Arca Jeth, and Thon were old masters. Nomi was very strong but decent as a combattant she was really more of a wizard type where she used her insane powers to defeat evil Sith Sorcerers and the like. The strongest Jedi were only seen during times of war and seemed to be rather uninterested in power, those that did would usually turn into Sith. Jacen for example was more of a Force wielder than a combatant and he used a lot of cheap tricks and unorthodx moves to win. Jaina was almost entirely a combattant with very few Force abilities of note that did not simply increase things like strength or stamina. Luke was somewhat balanced in that regard. Cade Skywalker on the other hand was a total brawler that wins fights by any means sometimes with crazy as powers. In fact I would outright say that the strongest Jedi probably appeared during the Clone Wars and after. I mean before the New Sith Wars the only Jedi of note that did not turn into Sith must have been Lord Hoth, Satele Shan, the Hero of Tython, the Barsenthor, Yonlach, Wyellet, Bastila Shan, the Exile, Vandar Tokare, Kavar and maybe Chamma and Noab Hulis.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I think the talisman did most of the work. Since judging by Knights of the Old Republic Celeste Morne was not actually that powerful. She was a decent combatant but not amazing and in terms of her Force abilities she seems about above average.

Certainly better than any contemporary Jedi. Against Vader though it wasn't mostly the talisman, she used that to defeat him in the end by turning his stormtroopers into Rakghouls.

But against Darth Krayt it was mostly Karness Murr's work.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I'll admit that I didn't read the last few Knights of the Old Republic books.
How exactly did Celeste get so strong without the talisman? As I seem to recall that she was more or less average until she met Karness Murr. Her real strengths were that she was trained by the Jedi Covenant as a sort of subterfuge human weapon. She was a skilled fighter but not really anything to brag about considering that there were contemporaries like Lucien Draay, Revan, Malak, the Exile, the Sith Triumvirate, Kavarr and Zhar Lestin. Her Force powers were nothing to brag home about either since she just had above average telekinetic abilities and could block lighsaber blows using a barrier of sorts. As a fighter she would have been exceptionally useful but I would think that the Murr Talisman increased all of her abilities which is in my opinion why she could fight Vader on an even footing and was no doubt the reason why she defeated Krayt. In the panel in which she defeated Krayt the presence of Karness Murr could be seen.

As a character I honestly don't like Celeste Morne. Being frozen for thousands of years seems like a dumb plot point but what irks me is that she just shows up randomly during any time period and it feels really contrived and immersion breaking. This is similar to the Exar Kun Force Ghost which showed up so many times that it wasn't even a novelty anymore. But back to Celeste, I think she is a psychotic who comes off like an angrier more physically aggressive version of Bastila. Though where as Bastila was still a rather conventional Jedi, Celeste is like a brainwashed super agent who abruptly disappears from the plot at hand. Would it kill the writers to actually use Celeste during the goddamned Mandalorian Wars and subsequent reign of Darth Revan, Darth Malak and the Sith Triumvirate, instead of conveniently bringing her back whenever we need a strong guy, who has no relation to her immediate story, to get an epic beat down. She is basically the Crystal Skull macguffin from Indiana Jones 4, contrived and random and at times barely even a character. Her arc ends with temporarily beating Krayt and choosing to die 4,000 years later... I mean seriously dafuq.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I have the comics, the battle with Vader is mostly a lightsaber match, which she holds her own in. Vader is stronger in the force and defeats her that way, and she in turn sicks rakghouls on him.

You're not wrong.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I like not being wrong. Seriously though she seems like she should have been a major character just based on her relative importance, skill level and design.

Also is it just me or does Celeste wear very little?





The design is kind of cool but it seems more like what a Sith would wear. I get that she isn't supposed to look like a Jedi, being an agent and all but it seems rather out of place. I don't remember any other characters in the KOTOR period that dress like that either.

[Love Mountain]

Uhhh, Idk about that. Imo, Vader, as both Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader, lived in an age of extraordinarily gifted swordsmen. Probably the greatest age actually. I do respect Krayt though, he's endured some ridiculous and survived god knows what, but I doubt he could survive being cut to pieces by a lightsaber.

Vader's biggest weakness is extremely powerful Force Lightning as that seems to be the only kind that could bring him down. Starkiller and Sidious were both very exceptional users known for the intensity of their Force Lightning and even Starkiller had pretty great difficulty bringing him down. I don't know how skilled Krayt is with his, I didn't see too much mentioned about it, but it will take somebody very exceptional to bring down Vader using only lightning. I mean, I think it's reasonable to give Krayt a nod here, but that just seems like such a boring battle then

Vader's not slow, he can be incredibly fast, faster than you can track with your eyes according to Legends material, he's just not very nimble, but he hasn't shown weakness against very agile opponents so I doubt speed will have a significant advantage here. The main point here is that Vader was probably one of, if not the greatest duelists of all time in Star Wars, and one of the most powerful force wielders in terms of power. Obviously not in versatility, he hasn't shown any significant skill or interest in things like Sith sorcery or Tutaminis. Which is a shame, imo if Vader was skilled at Tutaminis his weakness against Force Lightning would be covered, but Vader is the greatest Jedi killer of all time for a reason, especially in an era full of very powerful Jedi.

Krayt definitely does not seem like a push over and imo, he'd probably win, but I think it's very close, edged out by significant advantages in force lightning and Vader's significant weakness to it than anything else.

[Inhuman One]

Yeah and I am not buying dumb garbage like that, that Vader can supposedly be fast yet he didn't use that in the movies.
Thats just fanboys getting carried away in their writing who refuse to accept him as he actually is in the movies.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Vader can be relatively fast depending on the source material but he still lacks in mobility. Also in the majority of source material he is basically just a melee tank with high amounts of telekinesis.
If we take Rebels into account his fight with Ashoka Tano was a perfect example of an agile opponent giving Vader an extremely hard time. The only other way to really get Vader is if you have an opponent strong enough to match him blow for blow and put him into the defensive. I can't remember which book it was but it states that Vader's offensive was better than his defensive. So a mirror image of himself that could basically take the fight directly to him or get a first strike he would have to rely on his slightly worse defensive skills and get totally cornered. An example from the movies was when Luke attacked Vader in RotJ where he surprised Vader, kicked him down some stairs and then went berserk and kept wailing at him until Vader was pushed back and lost his arm.

[Inhuman One]

Luke didn't really have any lightsaber training at all though.

Just a little bit from Obi-Wan, Yoda didn't teach him anything about that at all.

[Love Mountain]

Jesus please don't give Rebels any credit. That was actually terrible.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

As flawed as I think Rebels is the fight between Ashoka and Vader was actually a decent example of someone with tonnes of agility consistently giving Vader the slip and overwhelming his defenses. The only issue is that I can't see Ashoka being that strong.

[Knight of Heaven]

Which is a shame, imo if Vader was skilled at Tutaminis his weakness against Force Lightning would be covered, but Vader is the greatest Jedi killer of all time for a reason, especially in an era full of very powerful Jedi.

He was, or at least he did displayed this skill in empire strikes back for instance.

The only issue is that I can't see Ashoka being that strong.

I do given who ended up training her, and her hands on experience during the clone wars.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I think even Anakin Skywalker displayed some ability with Tutaminis. Pretty sure Vader did it multiple times but he didn't seem to be able to effectively block lightning due to his prosthetic arms, they were basically lightning rods.

But as a swordsman I think Darth Vader is better than all of his contemporaries. The only ones who are even close are Dooku, Mace Windu and Obi-wan. In terms of fencing, swift offense and defensive fighting those 3 respectively are still better than Vader but overall Vader is better. As for Yoda, well he is said to be a skilled swordsman but I really don't see it. Yoda and Palpatine seem to be mostly augmented physicality using the Force. Palpatine for example almost never trained his sword skills and barely trained Darth Maul at all.