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Thread: TNS Dunland guide

  1. #1

    Default TNS Dunland guide

    I thought I'd share my non-award-winning Dunland guide with you folks . This was something I whipped up for a contest awhile back, and forgot about until now.

    Of course, this guide refers to the TNS version of Dunland. (You'll be getting some thoughts from me soon on the Chiefdom's prospects in DoM. )

    If you haven't played Dunland yet - or in a while - it's a great little faction to keep you busy during the wait for DoM. Enjoy, and let me know about your own Dunland strategies and tactics!

    A Guide to the Chiefdom of Dunland for The Fourth Age: Total War

    The Fourth Age: Total War is a mod for RTW:BI which takes place in the Fourth Age of Tolkien's Middle-earth – after the One Ring has been destroyed. The current version allows you to play as one of six factions, including such heavy-hitters as the Reunited Kingdom of Gondor and Arnor, which boasts the strongest infantry, best archers, and richest lands on the map, or the Kingdom of Rohan, whose famed horsemen are unstoppable.

    But I won't be telling you about those factions. Instead, this guide will focus on the Chiefdom of Dunland.

    If you haven't read The Lord of the Rings in a while, the name 'Dunland' may not ring a bell. You might vaguely remember them as the enemies of Rohan who threw in with the traitor Saruman during the War of the Ring. In Peter Jackson's films, Dunland got very little play indeed (they were basically represented by that one dirty guy with bad teeth who cut his hand as a pledge to Saruman).



    Above: Dunland's best and brightest, apparently.

    So why play as possibly the least-known faction in Fourth Age? Put simply, Dunland offers the toughest challenge in the mod, on both the strategic and tactical level. On the campaign map, you will face the difficulties of being a small, poor kingdom surrounded by strong enemies. On the battlefield, you will have to use every trick in your arsenal to see your ragged band of undisciplined troops to victory against foes who are better armed, better paid, and most of the time, better led. In short, if you want to feel like you earned your win, Dunland is the faction for you.

    But if you need a little help along the way, look no further. This guide will take you through the steps of turning your third-rate chiefdom of hillmen and hunters into a realm to be feared by the mighty of Middle-earth.

    First, let's look at the troops a Dunlending chieftain can expect to lead into battle.

    Men of Hill and Wood: Warriors of Dunland

    The first thing you'll notice about Dunland's unit roster is that it is foot-bound: even your Chieftain's Bodyguard will walk, not ride, to war (though units of bodyguard horsemen can be trained in Dunfreca). This has implications for the life of your family as well, since if a battle goes badly it's likely that your fleeing general will be cut down by pursuing horsemen.

    Your cavalry options are extremely limited. Apart from the Dunlending Horsemen you can train at any stables in your homelands, the only other cav you are likely to train will be the Riders of the Isenmarch, available only in Dunfreca. Both of these units will have a place in your armies, but they will be outclassed by the riders of almost every other faction – especially that of your great enemy, Rohan. Use them as flankers and to charge into the rear of foes who are already fighting your infantry. The Dunlending Horsemen are especially fragile, but at least they carry a few throwing spears. In most cases, even the armored Riders of the Isenmarch will have trouble unless they're supported by your infantry, so don't think these guys can carry the day on their own.

    Your infantry is a motley bunch. In the early going (at least on Hard difficulty), your footmen will stall even against Gondor Militia unless you have significant numerical superiority. Low-tier units like the Tribal Spears and Axemen can form the middle of your battle line, fronted by your archers and Hunters (skirmishers), flanked by War Hounds or Hillmen and backed by your general and some Wolfhunters. But apart from a few units available later on, such as Orc Champions and Axes of the Wolf, Dunland doesn't have any troops that can grind away in a prolonged melee against the superior warriors of the Reunited Kingdom that you'll be fighting for much of the game. That means battles need to be ended decisively, and quickly.



    Above: A capable battle formation for Dunland.

    Morale is a concern for your ragged army – they are hunters, farmers, and brigands, not trained soldiers – but one advantage of Dunland's units is that they can make morale a concern for the enemy as well. War Hounds, Wolfhunters, Hillmen, and the Hillmen Warriors available in the later game all intimidate the enemy. So if your battle line can hold while some of these units flank – accompanied by whatever cav you brought along to the party – you can get the foe running for the White Mountains while your bloodthirsty warriors howl in pursuit.

    In your settlements around the Misty Mountains – Dunhold and Dunchrioch – you have the option of building Orc dens to attract the services of these nasty creatures. Don't expect the Fighting Uruk-hai: these are the lesser Orcs, effective enough in large numbers but not war-winners on their own. Orc Raiders and Snaga Hunters may be trained in great numbers (up to 9 units in 1 turn), and can serve as speed bumps or distractions on the campaign map: send forces deep into enemy territory to draw the AI's attention away from your real invading force. But I tend to rely more on the Orc Hunters available at the next tier (decent archers with some respectable armor who carry spears as a backup weapon) and especially the Orc Champions you can eventually train at Orc Fighting Pits. These units can stand in with your regular forces, and the Champions in particular add some much-needed staying power to your lineup.

    War Hounds are especially useful on the battlefield. Not only do they cause fear, but there's nothing like a pack of deranged dogs for stopping an enemy charge in its tracks. Release the hounds just as an enemy unit approaches your lines, then flank with whatever scary, blood-daubed giants you have on hand.

    Just because your own archers are more suited for taking down beasts and birds than armored men doesn't mean you shouldn't train them. In fact, you'll want to train plenty. Since your own troops lack armor, you need archers to neutralize the enemy's missiles and whittle down his soldiers. In my armies fighting in Gondor, I like to have at least 4 units of archers flinging arrows at the terrifyingly effective King's Longbowmen or relatively unarmored infantry such as militia and swordsmen. Horsemen also make nice targets.

    Finally, pikes are a unique type of unit available only to Dunland. The Tribal Pikes you can initially train are rather weak compared to the Elite Pikemen available at a Pikemen Muster Field, but both will help you cut down horsemen if used correctly. Note that these guys aren't Spartans: they can't form a phalanx, and are best kept on the flanks or in the second rank of your battle line, where they can rush out to attack flanking riders.

    The composition of your armies will change depending on which enemy you're fighting. In Rohan, pikes are obviously more important. In Gondor, leave the pikes at home – you'll get better results with armor-piercing troops like the berserk Hillmen Warriors, Orc Champions, and Axes of the Wolf. In either case, be sure to bring along a few units of War Hounds, plenty of archers, and around 4 units of cavalry to help flank and speed your victory.


    The Wolf's Mark: Dunland on Campaign

    Don't be fooled by Dunland's starting position in the northwest corner of the map: you'll still be fighting a 2-front war.



    Above: Dunland’s settlements at game start. Build Dunhold, Dunchrioch, and Dunfreca for troop production; the other settlements can build more toward income (especially Sheep Traders in Anghal), but they can also provide Horsemen or archers in a pinch.


    You begin play at war with Rohan and the Reunited Kingdom, sharing borders with rebels to the south and Rohan to the east. Northwest of Lond Daer – your only coastal settlement – is the rebel-held Vorn Hollen, a requirement for Dunlendish victory: build a boat and take it now or at your leisure, but be sure to approach with greater numbers –those Gondor Militia are tougher than they look!

    Clearly your first priority is getting the Rohirrim off your doorstep. You might notice the bridge across the river Isen, just south of Isengard? I know what you're thinking, but avoid the temptation to block your enemy on the bridge. Rohan starts with many units of elite cavalry who can tear through your troops even without the benefit of a charge. Bridge battles can be bad options for Dunland.

    Instead, use the mountains to your advantage. Pull together a respectable army of starting troops under a decent leader and position them on the slopes of the Misty Mountains between that bridge and Dunchrioch. The horseboys will obligingly attack, and you'll have the high ground, showering them with spears and arrows as they toil uphill.

    After a few victories, you'll be strong enough to invade Rohan itself and threaten Helm's Deep. This is a real prize: take it, and the strawheads will throw army after army against its walls in futile attempts to wrest it back. In fact, merely holding Helm's Deep is often enough to keep Rohan from invading your own lands – which leaves you free to pour your hordes of unkempt warriors south into Gondor.

    The key to sieges in The Fourth Age is speed. In most games or RTW mods, you may find that starving out a besieged foe is the path of least resistance. But in Fourth Age, your besieging general will gain demoralizing traits the longer the siege goes on, to represent the men consuming their meager supplies. Given the relatively low morale of the Dunlendish troops, this can be devastating if a large enemy army arrives to relieve their besieged friends. So build that siege equipment and plan to assault (and exterminate) as soon as you can.

    While we're on the topic, those supply-related traits affect more than just sieges. It pays to be attentive to the supply level of your army. Your general may be Fully Supplied as he lounges in one of your settlements, but supplies will decrease as he moves around the map, especially in enemy territory. So conserve your men's strength (don't spend all your movement points during a single turn), and try to limit the amount of time spent in hostile lands – or at least, make sure any decisive battles occur before your troops run out of food! I once watched one of my full stacks melt into a rout before a single tepid cavalry charge by a much smaller Reunited Kingdom force. My general was leading an army of starving men, and he paid the price with his life. Fortunately, if you can avoid similar disasters, gaining back positive supply traits (which actually add to the morale of your men) is fairly logical: spend time in friendly territory, especially in towns.

    With the Westfold captured and Rohan deterred, turn your energies south. The Reunited Kingdom will send parties to Erindol, the rebel settlement southwest of Dunfreca, and you need to keep them on the defensive. With your new-found wealth from the looting of Helm's Deep, improve your military buildings and train some of that frightening infantry.

    You'll find battles against the Reunited Kingdom will require something like 2-to-1 numerical superiority. That means you'll want to send at least 2 stacks, led by reliable (and well-supplied!) chieftains, into Gondor. Keep the armies close enough to support each other in battle (let the AI lead one stack to get more of your men on the field at once), and try to choose advantageous terrain: fairly open, hilly land. True, some of your units benefit from fighting in the woods, but trees also hamper your archers and your (limited) cav. Remember that the Dunlendish army must act as a single unit, so splitting your forces to surprise the foe may backfire.

    The invasion of Gondor will likely proceed in waves; a single stack or two simply isn’t enough to defeat the heirs of Elessar. Expect some back and forth as you and the Reunited Kingdom trade blows around Thoronburg and lands to the south. It may take decades before you feel strong enough to push east to threaten Dol Amroth and the smaller settlements near the Stone of Erech, but if you keep training and building – and choosing your battles carefully – the momentum will shift in your favor. Once you take and hold Dol Amroth and settlements like Linhir, most of the fight will be out of the Reunited Kingdom. March your hordes along the coastline toward Minas Anor (formerly Minas Tirith) – and if Dunlendish pride demands that you assault those epic walls, bring plenty of reinforcements, build plenty of siege towers, and expect to take plenty of casualties, even more than your unarmored warriors are used to taking.

    While your chieftains are racking up heroic victories in the south, notice when the strength of Rohan begins to flag. Once the assaults on Helm's Deep come fewer and further between, you may be able to snatch some easy settlements in the area: Aglarond and Underharrow make tempting targets. Of course, taking Edoras itself is a devastating blow to the Rohirrim, one from which they may not recover. Give your victorious men some time to celebrate in the Golden Hall, but then press on: the goal of 25 settlements – and vengeance! – often requires that you subdue all of Rohan.



    Above: Wolfhunters cutting down the last enemies of the Chiefdom.

    The Chiefdom of Dunland is the ultimate underdog faction. At times, you'll feel that your very existence as an independent chiefdom is doomed by the strong enemies who threaten you. Your irregular troops are poorer and less disciplined than their foes. But there's a sly satisfaction in knocking together a working realm with rough materials. With cunning, boldness, and luck, you can make the more 'advanced' factions tremble, and go warily when they hear the call of wolves in the night.
    Last edited by CountMRVHS; June 24, 2014 at 08:51 PM.
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    Aikanár's Avatar no vaseline
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    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    Very nicely put and presented I hated to face an advanced Dunland.


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    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    Nice. Will be eager to see what you say about Dunland in DOM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Aikanár View Post
    Very nicely put and presented I hated to face an advanced Dunland.
    Thanks!

    (Now edited to include the pics that appeared in the original entry. Woo, pictures!)

    Which faction did you play where an advanced Dunland gave you trouble? I actually rarely see Dunland do well for itself under AI control.
    Last edited by CountMRVHS; June 24, 2014 at 08:53 PM.
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    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    They made my Life miserable when I played Rhun. I guess that was due to me blitzing Rohan as Rhun and ending up in an age long war of attrition with Rohan and the RK which enabled Dunland to expand into south Gondor and take the Hornburg. Whenever Dunland was able to take the Hornburg, they proved very tiresome to fight down, especially when not playing the RK.

    Also, when I played the RK and did only commit the Dol Amroth forces to the South, South West and Noth West expansion, Rohan apparently focused on expanding east and lost the Hornburg again to Duneland, which made them hold the line against Rohan pretty good and enabled the AI to focus on southwards expansion through to the gap in the White Mountains.

    I guess, would I have committed more resources to the Dol Amroth front, it would not have been that much of a problem, but with limited resources and next to all elite troupes bound on the eastern and southern fronts, Duneland happened to be quite an adversary for the contingents I could commit to that theatre.


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    Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.

  6. #6

    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    Ah, interesting! See, I've never played the RK for very long in TNS, but I can see how that could happen. You spend all your time and cash sending troops east/south rather than west/north, and then a bunch of unruly barbarians shows up around Anfalas, far from your main power centers. That could be a headache indeed.

    As for Rhun, I used to play them quite a bit, but I think in my games Rohan usually came out on top. Probably because I usually spend a while consolidating rebel regions in the vicinity, and then getting drawn into a war with Adunabar. That means Rohan only has to worry about Dunland, and Rohan often makes it to Mid Deeping before I could reach the Anduin. So I'd spend some time fighting Rohan, and then assemble a bunch of stacks to throw at Minas Tirith for the win.

    I guess Dunland could also be a headache for Adunabar, come to think of it. Adun. starts off at war with Rohan and the RK, which would distract both of those factions and tend to draw resources away from their war with Dunland. Dunland could grow stronger as a result, and if you wanted to play a completionist style game as Adunabar, they might be one of the last factions you'd have to deal with (the other being Harad).
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    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    Allow me to add my 50 bucks (iit's a lot more than just 2 cents, that's for sure). I'm playing as Dunland in my current campaign so I got it all in fresh memory.

    First off, there are a number of things you can do to exploit weaknesses in the AIs behaviour. Decide yourself if you think this is fair or not.
    One such thing is the AI can't resist a good fight, such as placing your units in uphill terrain instead of on the bridge. One other way of doing that is to send out a general, build a fort and then leave a single unit in it (preferably archers). If you put that fort between the enemy and your cities, then the AI won't be able to resist to siege it. And since there are very few units in this game that can take down gates/walls, that means it will take them a turn to build siege equipment. And that gives you an extra turn to react.
    This is especially good since the game seems to be cheating a bit on trade and blockades. If the AI sieges your city on his turn and you knock them off on your turn, it will still mean that you won't get any trade income. You may think that this sounds fair, your city was besieged after all. Yes, but it means that they can send a small unit to siege your city, which you attack and they immediately retreat, and then they'll do it again on the next turn. Which means you will never get any trade income from that city.
    Another exploit of AI behaviour is the AIs tendency to only go for neighbouring territories. As mentioned above, if you take Helms deep, that means Rohan will attack you there. The reason is because Helms deep is the only Rohan territory that borders any of yours. So if you take it, that means it will be the only border territory between you, so he will try to take that before going on to another territory that borders him.
    The AI will also concentrate on attacking you. If a faction gets a border to you, they will attack you, it's only a matter of when. They will make peace on other fronts if they can (and if they are in a fight with a faction that also borders you, they will essentially ally up and decide that you are the greater enemy) and they will build up their forces to attack you.
    That means it can be directly detrimental to take certain territories, if that means you will end up with another enemy.
    One such example is Calenhad. If that belongs to Adunabar, don't take the territory that borders it, because then Adunabar will start massing troops against you. And if you are in a war with RK in the west, that means adunabar will send it's forces against you and RK will send all those forces it had to use against adunabar before against you as well.
    So one little exploit of this behaviour is by not taking Erindol. This might seem weird, but it actually works.
    If you take Erindol, that means you share a border with RK and they will come at you in force.
    If you don't take Erindol, that means RK will instead send smaller forces to try and take the neutral settlement of Erindol when it has the time and the spare units. And you can then ambush these troops before they take Erindol to prevent RK from taking it and giving them a border with you.
    The AI won't really wise up on that, and will continue to send armies intended to take a neutral Erindol, thinking any meeting with hostile armies are just coincidence.
    Erindol isn't a very great place anyways, it's small, doesn't have any resources of real value, no big trade routes until Anghal has been built up etc. And then add in that Erindol is of Gondorian culture, creating problems for you and not giving you the same unit options as your core territories etc, and you'll come to realize that Erindol isn't really worth the hassle.

    Another "exploit" is a fix to the problem you mention about supplies. The supply thing is a trait on the general, that applies if he leads the army, meaning that if the supply trait becomes too bad, the general actually becomes a disadvantage and you can remove him from the army in order to remove any effect of the general, good or bad.


    Dunland are very weak early on, but becomes very powerful later in the game.
    This is due to their elite pikemen, that are excellent units. And elite pikemen schools can be built anywhere, meaning they can recruit and refill their units anywhere in the world, greatly diminishing the problem with having long supply routes from your core territories to the frontlines.
    They also actually have decent cavalry in the shape of the recruitable cavalry general. And at least in my version of TNS the only thing needed to recruit them are the horse resource, which exist in Dunfreca but also in pretty much every Rohan territory, meaning you can recruit them en-masse there once you start taking them.

    Dunland also has warhounds, which are nice since the hounds themselves actually regenerate between battles. The only ones that count are the handlers, each handler has 2 hounds. If you "charge" with them, they will let slip the dogs of war and then you can retreat the handlers back to your own lines and beyond, saving them for another battle.
    It makes for a very effective weapon in breaking tough enemies, especially in sieges against Rohan (that doesn't have stone walls except for Helms deep), both defending and attacking. When attacking, you smash down the gates and then unleash a horde of hounds at him, killing everything at no cost to your own troops. And if they all die, than you can actually retreat from the siege and then re-siege it and repeat. Your hounds respawns, his units doesn't.
    Same goes for when you are being besieged, let out your hound units and send off a dark wave of death and then return your handlers to within your gates and just end the battle once your hounds are all gone.
    Massive losses to him, no losses to you.

    Dunland has the advantage of orcs as well. And ironically, the greatest advantage with orcs are economical. Orc buildings will mean rapid population increases in your two main cities, and it will also mean you can recruit snaga archers in huge amounts and send them to your other cities to help populate them to increase in city tiers and give access to better units, more trade income etc. Snaga archers are also the best garrison units in the game, in cost of upkeep per soldier, saving you money for more expensive units to be used at the front.

    Dunlands biggest problems are their poor low-tier units, especially when measured against RK and Rohan. But the elite pikemen are very good. They are a large unit, they are well-armored, got big shields (good against arrows) their long pikes will mean death to cavalry and they have a pseudo-phalanx thing going on with their normal formation due to their unique pike weapon. Same goes for the tribal pikemen to some extent, when it comes to pseudo-phalanx, but they just lack the mass, discipline and morale to really hold it together for very long.
    They also have the worst archers in the game, which is kinda bad, and pushes you toward a more unique playstyle than the other factions, which is kinda fun.
    Overall, basic spearmen work fairly well against Rohan early on due to spear bonuses vs cavalry though, and if you do the Erindol trick, you can hold off any really powerful RK armies until you are ready for them.
    Hillmen warriors are really the when it comes to dealing with RK heavy infantry. Berserkers are awesome. And also mix very well with war hounds, since they use the same AI for how they act, so unleashed disposable war hounds will back up your valuable berserkers, prevent losses to them fairly well and also capitalize greatly when berserkers disrupt the enemy formations to really pile in and rip intol enemies that have been knocked down by berserkers launching area attacks.
    War hounds also mix well with archers, send in the hounds to lock the enemy in combat and then let your archers rain arrows over all of them. Your hounds are disposable so who cares if they take losses as long as the enemy does too. Remember braveheart "but we will hit our own men!" "yes, but we will hit theirs too".

  8. #8

    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    Nice, thanks for the detailed post Nehcrum!

    I've gotta run right now, but I'll be back to look at this more closely and comment. Looks like some solid points.
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    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    Another note, which is of a more general nature not unique to Dunland.
    Trade income is determined by connection (quality of the road connecting them or if they are a water connection), trade resources and population sizes. The more populous the city, the bigger the trade income, and you get two trade incomes actually, one from importing goods and one from exporting. The export income is of course much greater. You can see this for water connections, where they are split into two separate categories, probably due to how water connections work, where someone can trade to a city, but not that city trading back since water trade connections goes from a port and will only export goods and it will require that your trading "partner" also has a port that trades with you for the trade to go both ways.
    For land connections, they have slapped it together, since all land trade connections goes both back and forth and not omni-directional.
    What this means in more simpler terms is that if you build up a large trade city, with trade buildings, good resources etc, you will not only get higher trade income from that city, but also higher trade incomes (due to import) from all the cities you own that your trade city is trading with.
    And if you got two large cities with good trade connected, that means their trade connection will give a lot, since they give both high trade export and high trade import incomes.
    But one note is on the resources. You can see what resources they will trade to different neighbours on the trade income page, and you can also note that they aren't trading all of their resources. This is because they will only export goods that doesn't exist in the target trade partner.
    This is a problem in TNS, where most factions have a unique resource, which might seem good for trade, but because all of their core territories have it, that means they can't trade it to each other and therefore end up doing nothing.
    For Dunland, this is sheep. Sheep resource exist in all of your starting territories with the exception of Dunfreca (which has horses instead), this means that they won't trade sheep with each other, because they all have it already (again, with the exception of Dunfreca), this really hurts the trade income for Dunhold (your capital) for example, since it is bordering only two cities, which both have sheep and so they can't trade it. Anghal would be a lot better for trade income if it wasn't for the fact that most of it's surrounding territories have sheeps as well, greatly diminishing the trade potential.
    Irony is, that you can increase your trade incomes by removing resources in the text files because of this. Removing the sheep resource from Dunhold will increase your overall incomes due to Anghal and Duncrioch now being able to trade sheep to Dunhold.
    As for land trade connections, they are easy to spot once you build roads, because there seems to be a need for roads for territories to be considered connected.
    For example, Dunfreca and Duncrioch are not connected, even though one might think so, there is a river all along their border and no crossing, so they actually have no connection and no trade. This is also what affects the AI when it comes to attacking bordering territories I think.
    The resource thing also applies to Rohan, meaning you could get higher trade income by removing the horse resource from Edoras.

    Also, there are some unique bonuses for certain trade resources, most notably grain, which will give increased population growth as a side effect of being traded.

    My suggestion for city development buildings would be a sheep trader in Anghal, once you get Anghal developed enough, you should be able to get some nice trade incomes from it and the surrounding cities. Remember to use snaga archers from Dunhold and Duncrioch to help populate your other cities.
    Duncrioch will actually be your most important economic city, this is partly due to the orc buildings which will make it grow in size much quicker but also because of the wonder there and it's high farmland fertility. The Orthanc wonder is ridiculous in this respect, especially with how it stacks with the orb buildings. When you first start out, the secure wonder building is at lvl 2 and gives you +10% to health (each 5% to health also gives 0,5% population growth) and +1% to population growth (for a total of +2%) as well as a happiness bonus. But once you get it to the next level, which shouldn't be hard with orc buildings, things get ridiculous. First off, for each lvl 3 wonder building you have, you get a faction wide happiness bonus of 5%, which is nice (and damned near cheating for RK, which starts with 3 of the 5 wonders, giving them a potential of +15% happiness in all cities they control, including newly conquered ones) but more importantly the bonuses of the wonder itself are incredible. You get +15% public health bonus (+1,5% pop growth) and +1,5% pop growth (stacks with the health bonus) and +7 to farming (which increases farming income by a little bit but more importantly gives 0,5% pop growth per point of farming, for a total of 3,5% pop growth from the farming bonus alone). All of this adds together to an amazing 6,5% bonus to population growth. Add in a lvl 2 orc building to that, (the orc den) which gives a negative 15% public health but a 12% population growth (total of 10,5% pop growth) and your population in Duncrioch will be just plain ridiculous. Which will give nice tax income but also huge potential trade incomes, only marred by the fact that Duncrioch only borders Dunhold, Anghal and Helms deep, two of which already have the sheep resource....

    As for city diversification buildings, I'd recommend a sheep trader in Anghal, mostly because once you get it high enough to build diversification buildings, it will be a bit aways from the front and trade incomes are always needed and easily moved so to speak.
    The orc battle pit can only be built in your two orc cities (Dunhold and Duncrioch) but IMO they aren't worth it. Orc champions are only good because Dunland lacks other good units, not because they are good in themselves. I would suggest the hillmen fort instead, the berserker hillmen warriors have a much better impact against enemy heavy infantry (and berserkers are just silly good). And then I'd strongly recommend getting Dunfreca up in size and building a pikemen training school there, so you can start getting elite pikemen, those guys can then easily be your main units thereafter. Their only weakness is in fighting on walls, but the only stone walls anywhere near you is Helms Deep, which you should already have taken long before you can build a pikemen school anywhere. And they really help against Rohans cavalry.
    You can also build a hillmen fort in Dunfreca, which is worth keeping in mind, while pikemen school can be built anywhere.
    One recommendation is to do what I did, namely to take Helms deep and send lots of snaga archers there from Duncrioch in order to increase the city population. This gives you higher trade incomes (especially from Aglarond, once you take that, and you should also build that city up with snaga archers, huge trade incomes between helms deep and aglarond) and allow you build a pikemen training school there. Since it isn't one of your core territories and doesn't have sheep that means that the pikemen school is the only city diversification that you can build there, so you're not giving up anything. And it gives you access to the excellent pikemen at the place where you need it the most, against Rohan (and then I built a hillmen fort in Dunhold and Dunfreca and a sheep trader in Duncrioch and Anghal, giving access to hillmen berserker warriors against the RK infantry coming from the south).

    One small exploit or whatever you want to call it, is to use a building general to save on costs.
    Yes, pick a general, preferably one with a builder trait of some kind that saves on construction costs, then give him ancillaries from other generals which affect building costs and then you move him from city to city and make sure he is the governor (by moving out the old governor if need be) and then queue up buildings. If you can get a general with the builder trait (20% discount on buildings) together with a road builder ancillary (10% discount) and a woodwright (20% discount) You'll have halved the cost of buildings. And this cost only applies when you queue up the buildings, so you can move him out right afterwards and go to the next city to repeat it. That will save you a lot of money in the long run by having an ambulating architect roaming around your empire.
    If you were Rohan, you could get silly with it, since they can get a stonwright of the mountain (40% discount) and a dwarven companion (10% discount) which would probably make buildings cost nothing.....

  10. #10

    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    Very nice, 'ambulating architect' - I like it.

    There's a lot of good stuff here; just a couple points quickly:

    -The guide hints but doesn't state explicitly that I play on Hard/Hard difficulty. Just wanted to clarify that.

    -It's true that the supply traits can be negated by using an unnamed captain to lead your forces. But isn't this difficult to do in practice? I've never done this myself, but I guess you could use your general until he started to acquire some negative supply traits, then send him off into the woods somewhere away from your army. But that would make him vulnerable, and he may have other good traits; you may want to use him as a governor, for example, so sending him alone increases the chances you'd lose him altogether.

    I also like to roleplay a bit, so having a general with flaws and quirks is part of the fun.

    - I do generally prefer Hillmen Warriors to the Orc Champions, but the Champions are (IIRC) faster to train and easier to control in battle. Plus their unit size makes them a decent 'roadblock' for certain enemy units. I seem to remember that you can get to them quicker, too (but it's been awhile since I've played TNS Dunland).

    - I've never done the Erindol trick; that's a nice one. I guess could be called an exploit, but you could justify it from a 'roleplay' perspective too, by just imagining that your warriors are ambushing RK patrols, none of which ever return alive.

    - Dunland's archers are poor relative to their neighbors, but I found them playing an important role, targeting those other (better) archers, or cav, or just thinning out the approaching murderous foe - I felt it was important to go after as many kills as possible before the lines clashed, since otherwise I'd get swept away. But you're right that you can't play Dunland like the RK, for example.

    - I don't think I mentioned this in the guide, but I actually never got super comfortable using pikemen as Dunland. Maybe they go against my preconceptions of a wild, ragged band of outlaws; maybe it's the way they march out of step with the other warriors. Either way, I'll often go with one or maybe 2 armies that have some dedicated pike composition; beyond that, I use the more aggressive units. I'll have to spend some more time with a pike-centric army and see how they fare.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    Noteworthy tips from both of you, Count and Nehcrum. But look what you have done! Now my fingers are itching for some campaign… I haven’t play Total War games (except occasional Custom Battle) almost for a year; and never Dunland at that.

  12. #12

    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    I imagine you're not alone there, Jagmodo - about not playing Dunland, that is. Most faction-specific discussion seems to focus on the RK.

    I do find this oddly amusing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3apO5YORGw
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    Very nice, 'ambulating architect' - I like it.

    There's a lot of good stuff here; just a couple points quickly:

    -The guide hints but doesn't state explicitly that I play on Hard/Hard difficulty. Just wanted to clarify that.
    Shouldn't make much of a difference, the basics doesn't change just because the difficulty does.

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    -It's true that the supply traits can be negated by using an unnamed captain to lead your forces. But isn't this difficult to do in practice? I've never done this myself, but I guess you could use your general until he started to acquire some negative supply traits, then send him off into the woods somewhere away from your army. But that would make him vulnerable, and he may have other good traits; you may want to use him as a governor, for example, so sending him alone increases the chances you'd lose him altogether.

    I also like to roleplay a bit, so having a general with flaws and quirks is part of the fun.
    Difficult in practice? You just move your general. He has greater movement than the rest of the army anyways, just run away with him to one of your cities, where he can replenish his supply trait.
    And using him as a governor has no bearing on this, we are talking about an army in the field, not an army garrisoned in a city, because if that is the case then the supply trait problem will sort itself out.
    Or, if you are sieging a city, you just move your general out of the stack and far enough away so he won't join in the fight, and then you re-join him with his army inside the city once it has been taken.
    And yes, he may have other good traits, it's all about balancing it. If his good traits outweighs his bad, then there is no point in removing him, but if he got the really bad supply trait with huge negative numbers on command and troop morale, then that's when you got to consider simply exchanging him for a fresh general and let him get some time out.
    Same thing if he is wounded really. Remove him from the army and let him fix those traits in a city.

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    - I do generally prefer Hillmen Warriors to the Orc Champions, but the Champions are (IIRC) faster to train and easier to control in battle. Plus their unit size makes them a decent 'roadblock' for certain enemy units. I seem to remember that you can get to them quicker, too (but it's been awhile since I've played TNS Dunland).
    Ya. Orc champions take one turn to recruit, hillmen warriors take two. And are WAY easier to control in battle, since berserkers can only be controlled until they make contact with the enemy, once that happens they go berserk and you have no control over them at all.
    But you don't get to them quicker really, they both require city diversification to be built. Yes, the hillmen warriors also require the highest lvl barracks but the CD itself is the big cost and problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    - I've never done the Erindol trick; that's a nice one. I guess could be called an exploit, but you could justify it from a 'roleplay' perspective too, by just imagining that your warriors are ambushing RK patrols, none of which ever return alive.
    That's all in how much you value roleplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    - Dunland's archers are poor relative to their neighbors, but I found them playing an important role, targeting those other (better) archers, or cav, or just thinning out the approaching murderous foe - I felt it was important to go after as many kills as possible before the lines clashed, since otherwise I'd get swept away. But you're right that you can't play Dunland like the RK, for example.
    Yeah, they are still archers after all. They're just very poor at it. But at least they are cheap. As I mentioned above, archers and war hounds makes for a nice combo for example. And archers are awesome when it comes to sieges, simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    - I don't think I mentioned this in the guide, but I actually never got super comfortable using pikemen as Dunland. Maybe they go against my preconceptions of a wild, ragged band of outlaws; maybe it's the way they march out of step with the other warriors. Either way, I'll often go with one or maybe 2 armies that have some dedicated pike composition; beyond that, I use the more aggressive units. I'll have to spend some more time with a pike-centric army and see how they fare.
    They are also very expensive, both to recruit and in upkeep, but they are awesomely good in the open.

    The unit I most "abuse" though are the warhounds. I just love a unit that respawns after each battle.
    Having a dozen of them means you can send swarms of dogs at the enemy at basically no cost to yourself.

  14. #14

    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    Of course moving your general isn't the difficult part - it's finding a friendly city to retreat him to safely when you're deep in hostile territory, which is very likely to occur in fights with Gondor, especially if you use your Erindol strategy. Think of the long distances involved between settlements in the western Gondorian regions, for example.

    All I'm saying is there is some risk to your general when you make such a maneuver. If you do lose him due to ambush or getting trapped by an enemy army, you may have lost a good commander or governor. I'm sure this doesn't happen often, but it's something to watch out for.
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    True.
    I'm doing the same thing that I accuse the AI of doing, most of the time. Namely that I go for the enemy cities that borders my own, and I clear out enemy armies on the way.
    So I don't really have a problem with retreating, because there is very seldom that there would be any enemies between my army and my own city.

    That only tends to happen in the very confused MT-MI area.

    And I also tend not to have my armies out in the field for all that long, but try to go for cities. And I don't like starving them out instead prefering to assault.

    Mostly that is a problem that happens to me in Rhovanion and in the south, due to the very long distances there.

  16. #16

    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    Yeah, if you're thorough you could avoid that issue altogether.

    Assaults are preferable to long sieges, though with Dunland I find assaults can be tricky. They may be the least assault-friendly faction, now that I think about it. Harad has tons of troops and cash, so throwing footsoldier after footsoldier into some breach will eventually work, and probably won't hurt you too badly. Rhun has some reliable infantry, and their cav can be decent in street fights. RK and Adun. are of course infantry monsters, so siege assaults are almost always a great option for them. Even Rohan has some decent assault-infantry types available. But Dunland's units are individually fairly fragile or require team tactics to work well.

    I mean, Dunland *can* do siege assaults of course. But assaults can be really deadly for the Dunlendings. Their "tough guy" units tend not to have shields (Axes of the Wolf, Hillmen Warriors, Wolfhunters) or much for armor. Probably some combination of War Hounds plus whatever infantry is on hand is the best route, at least when assaulting wooden walls.
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: TNS Dunland guide

    Dunland only has Helms Deep around them that has stonewalls, so that's the only one where fighting on the walls is required for quite some time (the next cities with stone walls are Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth I think, which are both quite a bit ways into the campaign).
    Wooden walls are still fighting in the open, just with obstacles. Build some rams and knock down a few walls and you can send in your units without any specific need for close combat infantry like there is when fighting on walls. And the narrow confines of streets tends to really help your pike units, especially against Rohan cavalry.

    And Helms deep isn't that bad, since Rohan also has a huge problem with high quality infantry. Their only good infantry units are the helmingas and the AI doesn't build recruitable generals. Your axemen can match his axemen fairly well and shields of the mark are spearmen which don't do terribly well agaisnt infantry and same thing with guards of the house (or whatever they are called), if the AI should ever build them.

    And for assaults against wooden walls, and Rohan especially, I've already expounded on my favourite Dunland unit for such occasions, namely the war hounds.
    The war hounds biggest drawback is that you can't control them, except when they will attack and what their first target will be.
    And they will only pick a new target after the one they are attacking is dead, which means they will follow a fleeing enemy. Including off the battlefield....
    So if you sick lots of dogs at a rohan cavalry unit, it might flee of the board and take lots of still living dogs with it. But in sieges, defending units don't flee off the battlefield, but flee back to the main square, which will led the hounds there.
    Having a bunch of warhound units unleash a wave of dogs on the unit standing right inside a breached gate or knocked down wall will do much to soften up their entire defenses for the rest of your units. And allow your archers to pepper them with arrow in safety behind the dogs, which will easily block any enemy units from moving through them.
    And the hounds also work very well with berserkers, who will add some serious firepower to the rampaging horde of uncontrollabe units.

    But they are at a big disadvantage when facing RK in one of their cities with stone walls, but that should come late in the campaign when you got access to your whole unit roster and can in worst case just swarm him.
    And one good option is to build siege towers and have a cheap unit roll them forward to soak up arrow fire and run up to the walls to engage enemy units and suppress them, while you are moving up some more tough units without shields.
    One problem with sieges is that most cities are built with weak spots, you can usually find a place where the walls are placed in such a way that the towers either can't fire on approaching troops at all, or have a very narrow window where they can.
    And you can diminish their firepower by simply sending forth some cheap and expendable units since towers always fire on the closest unit.
    If anyone wonders if orcs are good in combat....here is where they excel. As meatshields to soak up enemy fire.
    Orc raiders also work wonders against RK on wall. Well, compared to the ease with which they are recruited anyways, since they can't flee from walls. True, they will end up in a state of panic where they won't fight back and just get cut down, but it locks up enemy units and will tire the enemy units out by having them swing their weapons a lot.


    But when facing some truly large and scary RK armies inside one of those cities, the best thing for me is just to lay siege to it and wait for them to send a relief army, which will attack you in the back and give you a field battle without walls.

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