Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

[BosnianKnight]

Because "we lived here before you" was used as cause for war recently, but the idea of ethnic area and historic lands originate in mid to late 19th century. Ideas like X used to live here before they changed fate, so land belongs to us. But also X emigrated to this other land and is now majority so that belongs to us too.

Of course, those reasonings are just a way to motivate people to support teritorial expansion. People think Balkan crap was about nationality and religion, but it was always about teritory.

No, the cause of the war was Titos suppression of nationalism and foreign ambitions.
>but the idea of ethnic area and historic lands originate in mid to late 19th century.
Proof needed.
>People think Balkan crap was about nationality and religion, but it was always about teritory.
People want land, no way!

Exactly, I will never understand this problem, I mean you the big ing 'Merica being the most powerful country on the world that's founded on ideas not some stupid "I was born as a Blah Blah therefore I have to love Blah Blah", and yet people are so obsessed with ethnicities and genetics.

Why is the concept of "let's work together to achieve a common goal (easier and faster)" so hard to grasp for people is beyond me.

People are ethno-centric and tribalist, it's in our nature.
>Why is the concept of "let's work together to achieve a common goal (easier and faster)" so hard to grasp for people is beyond me.
Yes, there are millions of people outside your home ready to join hands and work towards your common goal of..........
Shure, let's put the past behind us and lets repeat them same mistakes all over again.

[Aru]

Proof needed.

I believe 7th grade history class in elementary school covered rise of nationalism for me. Beyond that, you can read about nationalism and ethnicity on wikipedia. It's pretty basic stuff.

People want land, no way!

Will you decide if it's Tito's fault or did people want land? Or was Tito's suppression of nationalism prevention of several people wanting the same piece of land?

[BosnianKnight]

I believe 7th grade history class in elementary school covered rise of nationalism for me. Beyond that, you can read about nationalism and ethnicity on wikipedia. It's pretty basic stuff.



Will you decide if it's Tito's fault or did people want land? Or was Tito's suppression of nationalism prevention of several people wanting the same piece of land?

I would like to be educated about it since I'm a pleb.

The fall of SFRJ was a combination of different effects, not one thing.

[Winston Smith]

I've always found something unique about these threads, something very Balkany.

[district01]

I saw a reply there saying albania was mentioned only in 12 century that's because before 12 century Albania was called "ARBERIA",also about language every single illyrian word is easily translated to Albanian like ulk-ujk sika-thika uj-uj darda-dardha ara-ara bije-bile qen-qen etc also bosnian haplogroup is more related to vlach.
The reason why Albanians are descents of Illyrians are:Albanian language is 9000 years old that's when haplogroup e-v13 appeared so in that time only Illyrians lived in now days Albania that makes it 100% Illyrian land,also there is a big mixture I have to admit but more than 65% of Albanians have ev13 haplogroup

[SipahiBiH]

Bosniaks are Illyrians and because today there is no longer any doubt

[SipahiBiH]

Bosniaks are Illyrians
----
PROFESOR JOHN WILKES OF UNIVERSITY OF LONDON HAS RECENTLY ESTABLISHED THAT BOSNIANS ARE ILLYRIANS - AN ANCIENT EUROPEAN PEOPLE. IT WAS PREVIOUSLY BELIEVED THAT ALBANIANS ARE ILLYRIANS. HOWEVER, HE FOUND OUT THAT ROMANIZATION, HELLENIZATION OR SLAVENIZATION OF THE ILLYRIANS HAS NEVER TAKEN PLACE

Amazon comment:

"Wilkes is the foremost LIVING authority on the Illyrians. His is the LATEST comprehensive work on the Illyrian people. In his book, "The Illyrians", John Wilkes states on pg: 219:
"NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO
MODERN ALBANIANS."
Wilkes has been proven CORRECT by science when the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study of European populations, confirmed that the vast majority of contemporary Albanians do not share an Illyrian or any Indo-European linneage - they are mostly a pre-IE Mediterranean population.

John Wilkes correctly puts Illyrian descendants among contemporary ex-Yugoslavs, centered around Montenegro and Bosnia and branching out into Dalmatia and south-western Serbia. Wilkes hints that ex-Yugoslavs are slavicized Illyrians and he leans on C.S Coon who insists that Albanians are of mixed Slavic, Thracian, Turkish, Armenoid and Illyrian origin.

This work was published in 1991 and based on the newest excavations undertaken in ex-Illyria. Wilkes brings out plenty of the most recent archaeological and anthropological evidence which other's in his field did not have access to.

Ten years after he published this work, the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study proved him correct. Modern science has dealt a huge blow to Albanian attempts to usurpe the Illyrian legacy. He was a decade ahead of his time. Because of his work, many academics within Albania have also come out in favour of accepting the new findings; namely: Kaplan Resuli, Fatos Lubonja, Ardian Qosi and Ardian Vebiu. They are joined by many international critics of the now debunked Albanian-Illyrian theory: Paul, Hirt, Weigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Pushcariu and many others.

Read this book. Keep in mind that it is based on evidence older works did not have access to and keep in mind that science has proven Wilkes correct ten years after he published this long-overdue honest and objective, thorough analysis of the legacy of one of Europe's oldest civilizations. The Albanians can no longer unjustly monopolise a whole people as they have done in the past."
http://www.amazon.com/Illyians-Peoples-Europe-John-==========================

BUT THE STORY IS GETTING A NEW TWIST: THE SO-CALLED "BOSNIAN PYRAMIDS" THAT RECENTLY (2006-2007) CAUGHT ATTENTION OF THE WORLD MEDIA (CNN, MSNBC, FOX, REUTERS, AP) ARE ACTUALLY A WORK BY THE ILLYRIANS AND THE ROMANS ACCORDING TO DR. MENSUR OMERBASHICH OF BERKELEY:

"Two great misconceptions, mostly malicious (nationalist-chauvinist-driven), reign the historical sciences in the western-Balkans for the last two and a half centuries. The first misconception concerns the never-ending disputation between the Albanian and the Serbian school. While the former school claims Albanians to be the last (only authentic?) surviving Illyrians, the latter claims not only that Albanians are Thracians (i.e., not Illyrians) but it also says that no such people as Illyrians has ever existed, instead contending that the locals were all Slav/Serb because ancient sources are filled with references to "sclavs" and "serfs"... The second misconception is related to the first, and it concerns the issue of who the Slavs were (or weren't) in the Balkans before the national awakening of the 18th century...

The reason for the two schools being so unapologetic lies in the possible answers to the crucial question they thus pose: Whose is the western Balkans? But being so extreme, neither of those two views seems very authentic; besides, no other interested parties living in the area have ever been asked for their opinion on the above two fundamental disputes that can (and do - as we speak) have great repercussions on lives of millions. At the same time, both schools oppose wholeheartedly and fight
fiercely any idea of Bosnia-centered Illyria, even though the idea is supported by a world's leading authority on Illyrians, Professor of Roman and Greek archaeology John Wilkes (the author of "The Illyrians", Oxford Press 2000).

Wilkes supports the concept of a Bosnia-centered Illyria, proposing that it's actually Bosnia, not Albania, which was Illyria. This is also obvious from the maps shown here. It's rather a mystery how Bosnia, so prominent and nearby the Rome itself, could have gotten omitted from most texts from/on the Roman Empire. He writes of Illyrians:
(1) "...A separate group of Illyrians identified by renowned historian Geza Alfoldy: he identifies 'Pannonian peoples' in Bosnia, northern Montenegro [around Pljevlja and Prijepolje, p.84] and western Serbia [Sandžak]". p.75
(2) "Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to identify an Illyrian anthropological type
as short and dark-skinned similar to modern Albanians." p.219
(3) "...a documented description of Illyrians, Pannonian family: -Pannonians are tall and strong, always
ready for a fight and to face dangeour but slow-witted." p.219
(4) "Life has always been hard in the Illyrian lands and countless wars of resistance against invaders are
testimony to the durability of their populations." p.220
(5) "In sum, the destructive impact [of Bosnia-centred theory] on the earlier generalizations regarding
Illyrians should be regarded as a step forward." p.40.
The Illyrians-Bogomils-Bosniaks continuity is self-evident as the above finds coincide with the settlements of today's Bosniaks (the Muslims of the Balkans).

Contrary to common belief, for the most part of their long history Illyrians/Bosnians had a strong fleet, brave infantry, and able generals. As immediate neighbors of the Romans and Greeks, they were enormously envied however. Therefore no Roman or Greek record referred to the Illyrians in any other way except as "pirates", "thieves", "barbarians", "rebels" or even "sclavs" and "serfs" (Lat. sclavo = Slav; serf = servus = slave, later on 'exiled Russian slave'), both terms used by the Romans as insult only, i.e., long before the 6th century when real Slav hordes began attacking and committing mass murder of
thousands of Illyrians at a time, always careful not to encounter the Roman legions but only unarmed civilians (thus "softening" the Roman defenses that semi-relied on non-Italian recruits in Illyria and Thracia; before moving the border of civilizations westward to Drina River and on). Probably, the insults were part of the first geopolitical game ever played in the Antiquity, where both Rome and Greece played on the card of a well-known geopolitical fact that your immediate neighbor is your enemy, and that your immediate neighbor's neighbor is your natural ally. Similarly, later on, in the 18th century, Serbian nationalists will claim that all "sclav" and "serf" ever mentioned in the Antiquity were actually Serbs. (In the same grabbing manner they simplistically and systematically translated all appearances of 'Sclavoniae' in Latin texts, as 'Serbia(n)'.) Thus it's Serbian relentless nationalism that makes it important to set the record straight - today more than ever.

No wonder both (and only) the Serbian and Albanian schools largely dismiss Wilkes (thus giving him an
enormous credibility), for Wilkes says it's hard to believe Bosnian-Illyrian tribes were "Romanized", "Hellenized", etc. This however is what the Serbian school needs desperately so that they too can claim that the same tribes had been also "Slavicized" after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and into the Mid Ages.

Unfortunately, history of Europe is history of war, even more so in case of the Balkans, and even more so still in case of Bosnia. Therefore, most of the grand events/undertakings in the area can probably be explained by geopolitical motives and related military activities. I don't need to remind the reader that the same overlaying set of rules applies to Bosnia even today, as it did in her recent past (Dayton Accord 1995, Teheran Conference 1943, Berlin Congress 1878), the most recent Kosovo-Bosnia connection - including the 1992-1995 aggression - being its latest manifestation as we speak... This is also why in the above I use geopolitical maps only (to show that most of the intermediate maps are unreliable), for
geopolitics is "oberpolitics", with everything else (including history) from Antiquity till today being nothing more than its byproduct."

http://omerbashich.blogspot.com/
http://omerbashich.blogspot.com/
=========================

PROFESSOR ENVER IMAMOVIC OF UNIVERSITY OF SARAJEVO ALSO CLAIMS THAT BOSNIANS ARE ILLYRIANS. HE PROVED THIS BASED ON ANTHROPOLOGY, BUT HE WAS LAUGHED AT BY SERB AND CROAT HISTORIANS. NOW IT TURNS OUT HE WAS RIGHT ALL
ALONG.

-----

SUM

1. LEADING WORLD EXPERTS SAY BOSNIANS ARE ILLYRIANS (NOT SLAVS - MEANING SERBS CANNOT CLAIM A SINGLE INCH OF THE BOSNIAN TERRITORY ANY MORE),

2. LEADING DOMESTIC SCIENTISTS SAY BOSNIANS ARE ILLYRIANS,

[+Marius+]

Dear God I love the Balkans.

[Hobbes]

Bosnians are Bosnians, not Illyrians; that's a different word.

[Erebus Pasha]

The only thing we can safely assume is that Bosnians are a South Slavic people just like the Serbs and the Croats. Lets leave the petty nationalistic nonsense aside please.

[NikeBG]

The only thing we can safely assume is that Bosnians are a South Slavic people just like the Serbs and the Croats. Lets leave the petty nationalistic nonsense aside please.

Not everyone would be certain even about such things. F.e. I recently read about an old story where the Macedonian government demanded apology from the EU ambassador for calling them Slavs. Likewise, I've seen (or rather read online, thank goodness) many Bulgarian nationalists who also reject being Slavs and even consider it an insult. So I wouldn't be surprised if someone here starts claiming the Bosnians are pure Illyrians who have nothing to do with the Slavic Serbo-Croatian invaders (actually, SipahiBiH already claimed that recently, IIRC).

[thekingsmen]

yes cut the nationalistic crap and give us science!!! https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/canad...runo-de-roubin


kanadian neutral respectfull science!!
Canadians saying: Bosniaks, Bosnian Serbs and Montenegrins are Croats. Recent research in the genetic laboratories in Vancouver, Canada confirmed the origin of the Bosnians and Montenegrins. The genetic library with hundreds of thousands of genetic samples from around the world (Genebase.com) published their research in Vancouver, where the laboratory and is related haplogroups that is directly linked with the Bosnians and Montenegrins. Haplogroup I, which arose about 25,000 years ago on the Balkan Peninsula during the last ice age, is exclusively associated with the Croatian population. For the first time in human history, we are able to discover its history with 100 percent accuracy by relying on the order of the DNA code that exists in every living being on the planet. Haplogroups are DNA markers that are often geographically oriented and used to monitor the common ancestor of the entire population. These markers are often more divided, additional letters or numbers that symbolize a deeper rift between people. For example, Croats and Bosniaks have the highest frequency of haplogroup 12A2, which is a marker that can be found only within the boundaries of Croatian, Bosnia and Herzegovina and a little more than half of Montenegro.

[thekingsmen]

The only thing we can safely assume is that Bosnians are a South Slavic people just like the Serbs and the Croats. Lets leave the petty nationalistic nonsense aside please.

the medieval bosniani kulture is far more shapen than that!! it deserves more and more is known about those people,we have theyr writings,religion,language(acents,dialects)we know for sure what they are,politic corectnes is another story

[Gorčin]

yes cut the nationalistic crap and give us science!!! https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/canad...runo-de-roubin


kanadian neutral respectfull science!!
Canadians saying: Bosniaks, Bosnian Serbs and Montenegrins are Croats. Recent research in the genetic laboratories in Vancouver, Canada confirmed the origin of the Bosnians and Montenegrins. The genetic library with hundreds of thousands of genetic samples from around the world (Genebase.com) published their research in Vancouver, where the laboratory and is related haplogroups that is directly linked with the Bosnians and Montenegrins. Haplogroup I, which arose about 25,000 years ago on the Balkan Peninsula during the last ice age, is exclusively associated with the Croatian population. For the first time in human history, we are able to discover its history with 100 percent accuracy by relying on the order of the DNA code that exists in every living being on the planet. Haplogroups are DNA markers that are often geographically oriented and used to monitor the common ancestor of the entire population. These markers are often more divided, additional letters or numbers that symbolize a deeper rift between people. For example, Croats and Bosniaks have the highest frequency of haplogroup 12A2, which is a marker that can be found only within the boundaries of Croatian, Bosnia and Herzegovina and a little more than half of Montenegro.

Would you please be kind and provide us with the link of the original scientific paper representing the: "kanadian neutral respectfull science!!"

[sumskilz]

First issue, what was called I2a2, characterized by the mutation L621, is now called I2a1b2. Its place in the phylogenetic tree has bee refined. In scientific papers you'll often see it referred to by its mutation (L621) or by a composite like I2a1b-L621 or I2-L261.

Second, identifying the population with the highest frequency of a particular haplogroup isn't how you identify its origin. If two brothers and and an unrelated man settle a previously uninhabited island with their wives and children and the unrelated man has no sons, then the island's future inhabitants (baring new immigrants) will have 100% of the haplogroup of the two brothers, but the haplogroup didn't come from that island. Likewise, if two brothers settle on a small island that has already been inhabited but kill all the men and take the women, the result will be the same and it will again tell you nothing about where the brothers' haplogroup came from. High frequency of a particular Y-chromosomal haplogroup is caused by relatively recent founder effect or disproportionate net reproductive success of the ruling class and/or conquerors and their male descendants (Genghis Khan effect).

The actual way to determine the origin of a haplogroup is to look at where it appears first according to ancient DNA samples and among what population it is most diverse. The population with the most diversity of a haplogroup (having the most sub-mutations) is likely more descended from the population in which it arose because it has had more time to mutate within that population. Although that doesn't necessarily mean the current geographic location of that population is where it has always been. I2 was the predominate clade among Mesolithic European hunter gatherers. It probably did arise in the Balkans, but that's doesn't mean that's where the subclade common in Bosnians arose. The grand parent clade of the Bosnian one, I2a1 has been found in Mesolithic Luxembourg and Mesolithic Sweden as well as Neolithic France, Germany, and Spain. The parent clade I2a1b, just one mutation before the one common in Bosnians was prevalent in Mesolithic hunter gatherers in Sweden. No published study of the current diversity of I2a1b2, but from looking at the FTDNA database it looks like there are more variants in people of Polish and Lithuanian ancestry than in people from the Balkans. Lithuanians also happen to be the modern population most similar to the Mesolithic hunter gatherers in Sweden from which the parent clade and sister clades derived. The haplogroup clearly arrived from the north, but the question is when? Based on the relative diversity, which admittedly needs to be studied more systemically, it seems that the haplogroup arrived relatively recently, maybe even with the Slavs, which would mean it is the result of a Genghis Khan effect.

[thekingsmen]

Would you please be kind and provide us with the link of the original scientific paper representing the: "kanadian neutral respectfull science!!"

the orginal scientific paper you must search in the genetic laboratories in Vancouver......

[Otto von Bismarck]

It's very interesting how many Balkan peoples would immediately try to promote themselves
and to belittle other, even though they are their kinsmen and most related to them

especialy in bosnia, Bosnian people are like that. its my experience anyway

[Impresario]

So why did they always use those derogatory names for each other in Bosnia? and do they have any historical relevance, the
bad names they used to give each other.

[Sir Adrian]

It's very interesting how many Balkan peoples would immediately try to promote themselves
and to belittle other, even though they are their kinsmen and most related to them

especialy in bosnia, Bosnian people are like that. its my experience anyway

This. Serbs, Bosnians and Croatians are literally the same people separated by religion and politics. And they're all slavicised natives: romanians, greeks and albanians.

[thekingsmen]

This. Serbs, Bosnians and Croatians are literally the same people separated by religion and politics. And they're all slavicised natives: romanians, greeks and albanians.

NO! they have the same artificial language that is created in the 19. century,culturaly they are totaly diferent.
croats are more similar to austrians and italians while serbians are like russians/bulgarians an eastern mentality,bosniaks have the same culture as the turks just a diferent language and theyr mentality is far diferent from serbs and croats!