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Thread: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

  1. #21
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    There is no Ilyrian gene buddy. There is I2a2 that is most likely in area since last ice age that is some 20 000 years, so thats a lot longer than we have Ilyrians around. Besides Ilyrians werent a single cohesive group. They were numerous tribes who significantly mixed with Celts in north and west and with Thracians in east and south. So for example Dardanians in modern Macedonia are classified both as Thracians and as Ilyrians. Scordisci in central Serbia were mix of Celts, Ilyrians and Thracians. Ilyrians in northern Epirus and Montenegro were heavily Helenized. Ilyrians in Croatia and Bosnia were also heavily mixed with Celts especialy Pannonians in modern Croatia who were more Celtic than Ilyrian. Histrians and Veneti were also somewhere between Ilyrians and Celts but even more a single group in their own way. From earliest known time, Balkans were and are heavy mix of all kind of groups.

    What about Crkva Bosnanska?
    What about it? Heretic movements were historical reality since the beggining of the Church. At the same time when Bosnian rulers are protecting heretics, same those Patharens and Bogomils are being prosecuted in Bulgaria, Byzantium, Serbia, Italy, France, Germany, Spain and Hungary. In fact first Patharens mentioned were ones in coastal Croatia in region of Dalmatia who then fled to Bosnia.

    So that heretic movement was at the time very spear in all of Europe. It survived in Bosnia longer because Bosnians rulers at first protected it, and later when they converted to Catholicism the movement was too strong. But because this movement was prosecuted so much, it is possible that their members were more willing to convert to Islam when Ottomans finaly came.

    What about Bosnian kingdom? There was also Kingdom of Diocletia. And Kingdom of Slavonia. And Kingdom of Dalmatia. Does this mean all of these tiny regions are nations in their own right?
    Last edited by Hrobatos; June 21, 2014 at 10:44 AM.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    >From earliest known time, Balkans were and are heavy mix of all kind of groups.
    Depends on what time you are talking about and just because there were some X in a country of Y does not mean that they are "significantly mixed" since the haplogroup to this day is dominant even after all the wars, genocides and migrations.
    >Does this mean all of these tiny regions are nations in their own right?
    Might brings right and the Bosnian kingdom was not a small matter.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #23
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    Think about it for a second. Till 13 century that small dark red is what is Bosnia. First time its mentioned in DAI i 950. its part of Serbia/Rashka. In meantime till 13. century it was little bit under Serbia and little bit under Croatia.

    From 13 century till 15, during a period of 250 years due to internal weakneeses in Serbia and Hungary Bosnian Ban House Kotromanich manage to expand their domain on neighbour Serb and Croat areas. Same those areas we have desribed as Serbian and Croatian in DAI in 950, where Bosnia is part of Serbia. So that is all of that less dark red area on your map. Even if there would had been some kind of Slavic medieval Bosnians, Bosnia on its height of power would mosly lay over formed Serb and Croat lands.

    But we dont really know that Bosnians were ethnicity. They werry well could have been just a regional name. Just like Slavonian, Diocletian, Zachumlian, Travunian, Dalmatian Rashan, Humlian/Herzegovinian etc. Infact there is a lot more arguments to support second than first. None of those "ethnic" names above mentioned, have clear national character like Serbs and Croats. Of all those South Slav names, only Serbs and Croats have attested migration to Balkans as a tribe/nation, formed states from the time of migration as well as states from which they came from ( White Serbia in modern eastern Germany and White Croatia in modern eastern Poland, western Ukranine ) which continiue to exist centuries after migration of part of their people to Balkans.

    For example White Serbs or Luzhnicki Sorbs in Germany were eventualy defeated by Franks, and exist even today as autochtonic Slavic minority in eastern Germany. Last time we hear for White Croatia in area of Poland/Ukraine is 12. century when they are first conqered by Kiev and then serve as vassals of Kiev Rus in wars against Byzantium. For Bosnians we hear first time in 13. century. Bosnia in 10. century. A region named by river. River Bosna was called Bassana by Romans. Region got name from river.

  4. #24
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    Just for a record this is how Byzantine Emperor draws the map in 950. Bosnia is part of Serbia. Small coastal regions are independent upon Byzantines.



    You can clearly also see Red Line which is where is modern Serbia. Thus old Serbia layed on modern eastern Bosnia and western Serbia. Of that most western part was Bosnia.
    Croatia layed over modern western Bosnia. Thats how we got all those Serbs and Croats in Bosnia today.
    Last edited by Hrobatos; June 21, 2014 at 12:58 PM.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    Oh, snap, wait one second.
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    You can clearly also see Red Line which is where is modern USA. Thus old USA layed on modern eastern native american land.
    Thats how we got all those Americans in America today.
    Except in this case the invasion wasn't fully successful and only less than 15% of people have slavic genes.
    Or was it the old Roman province of Illyricum that layed on the modern southern part of Serbia?
    Last edited by BosnianKnight; June 21, 2014 at 01:48 PM.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    It is not excatly determined what was the corect meaning of the term that is used for Bosnia in the case of DAI. There are some debates about what that term is refering to.
    Also people shold consider that the emperor didnt know much about iternal divosions betwen the slavic tribes that where on his borders, and the slavic serbs where his alies so naturaly he caled all of this people serbs
    The existence of small teritories such as travunia etc might shed some light on the situation in Bosnia and its higly possible that there where distincion betven serbs and bosnians, like serbs and travunians. The term Croat and Serb is very wide in the early medieval contex, and its very simplistic to presume that "all of them are serbs and croats". But in the case of iliriyan heritage it was lost in the romanisation, and especially after the slavic arival.

  7. #27
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    What is a Slavic gene? You keep talking about that. I never head or this "slavic" gene.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    Quote Originally Posted by haris View Post
    It is not excatly determined what was the corect meaning of the term that is used for Bosnia in the case of DAI. There are some debates about what that term is refering to.
    Also people shold consider that the emperor didnt know much about iternal divosions betwen the slavic tribes that where on his borders, and the slavic serbs where his alies so naturaly he caled all of this people serbs
    The existence of small teritories such as travunia etc might shed some light on the situation in Bosnia and its higly possible that there where distincion betven serbs and bosnians, like serbs and travunians. The term Croat and Serb is very wide in the early medieval contex, and its very simplistic to presume that "all of them are serbs and croats". But in the case of iliriyan heritage it was lost in the romanisation, and especially after the slavic arival.
    You can continue. I'm very interested.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrobatos View Post
    What is a Slavic gene? You keep talking about that. I never head or this "slavic" gene.
    R1a haplogroup.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrobatos View Post
    What is a Slavic gene? You keep talking about that. I never head or this "slavic" gene.
    Obviously you know that there are no "slavic genes", but there are segments of genes which are associated with the Slavic migration. They are determined by phylogeny established by comparing segments to other European populations, in this case common ancestry with Poles and Belorussians with a date of divergence estimated by the length of common segments between the populations. We have some sense of genetic make-up of the pre-Slavic population of the Balkans. However without ancient human DNA from a known Illyrian context, there is no way to empirically answer the question the OP would like answered from a genetic perspective.

    That said, some educated inferences can be made. Commonalities between the content of the pre-Slavic migration DNA, suggests that Bosnians and their neighbors all have some degree of Illyrian ancestry. Roughly speaking, it looks like about 30% of the genome in the region is derived from the Neolithic farmers of Middle Eastern origin who form a large part of the genetic substrate for most of the north Mediterranean. Another 15% seems to be associated with early Indo-European migration into the region. About 45% appears to be associated with Slavic migration. I'm making these rough estimates based on DNA of 21 individuals I have data for and comparing it to this study: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/343/6172/747

    I don't have the knowledge to comment on the historical debate, but I think if Bosnians had an early distinct identity, the resolution of the population's distinctiveness would be too high to detect because despite whatever cultural differences might have existed, they still would have been made up of similar source populations. The only distinctiveness I see, is 2-4% additional Middle Eastern admixture in the three Bozniak individuals I have, which makes sense to me, but with n = 3, I'm not going to claim it's representative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  11. #31

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    Where can I download the Y chromosome map from your link?

  12. #32

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    Quote Originally Posted by BosnianKnight View Post
    Where can I download the Y chromosome map from your link?
    It's autosomal DNA segments, so it can't be represented on a map like that. There is an interactive map for that study, but it can easily be misunderstood if you don't have a background dealing with population genetics, and it doesn't include data from the former Yugoslavian nations anyway. But feel free to check it out, it's been posted here before: http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/

    By the way, R1a is associated with the early Indo-Europeans. It's just as much Indian as it is Slavic. It's presence in the Balkans might largely be from Slavic migration, but it probably was present even in ancient times to some degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  13. #33

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    So, there was R1a, but the migrations have vastly expanded it?

  14. #34

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    Quote Originally Posted by BosnianKnight View Post
    So, there was R1a, but the migrations have vastly expanded it?
    That is what I meant, but it is an educated guess on my part.

    This is a sub-clade. It's pretty clear it pre-dates Slavic identity:

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  15. #35

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    This is the population nowdays?
    Because I have a similar map.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #36

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    Quote Originally Posted by BosnianKnight View Post
    This is the population nowdays?
    Because I have a similar map.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    That's I2a1. That group is associated with Neolithic farmers in the Balkans, from before the Indo-Europeans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  17. #37

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    So we were first?

  18. #38

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    Quote Originally Posted by BosnianKnight View Post
    So we were first?
    All Europeans are descended from those farmers to some degree. They also weren't the first Europeans. There were hunter gatherers first. The modern people closest to those Neolithic farmers are Sardinians (70% similarity), but people in the Balkans also have a lot of their DNA, though less than many people further west because they were displaced partially by later migrations. I think your mistake is trying to associate haplogroups one to one with particular populations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  19. #39

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    Ok, so we are Illyrian enough?

  20. #40

    Default Re: Are Bosnians linked to the Illyrians?

    Quote Originally Posted by BosnianKnight View Post
    Ok, so we are Illyrian enough?
    I assume you guys and your neighbors all have some Illyrian ancestry. That's all I can say without more data, like ancient Illyrian DNA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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