Morrowind, thoughts on population size

[G-Megas-Doux]

I have been playing Skyrim, Oblivion and Morrowind recently. Of course I still love Morrowind the most even after all these years but that's just me. Even on vanilla with Tribunal and Bloodmoon installed and nothing else. However I have been noticing with all these games a sad problem that has it's rout in the construction of all these games. Limited size population. Random spoiler alerts ahead.

Lameness alert.

I counted all the NPCs in vanilla using the construction kit. I could have made errors but I believe these numbers are close.

In total including all guards, miners, dead npcs excreta there are 2824 non player characters in Vvardenfell. Here are some other numbers for you. The top ten population centres.

1. Vivec 417 Ebonheart 85 together 502
2. Ald'ruhn with Buckworth fort 210
3. Balmora with Moonmouth fort 124
4. Sadrith Mora with Wolverine hall 118
5. Gnisis 64
6. Caldera 53
7. Molag Maar 51
8. Tel Vos with Vos 48
9. Suran 40
10. Tel Brannora 35

Oh and number 11. is Hlorman with 34.

Sadly we get settlements that are so low populated that Khuul has 14 people living there and yet it qualifies for a silt strider port. That is ahead of Gnar Mok with 20 or Tel Brannora with 35. Even the Dren Plantation has 26 NPCs there, this is equal to Dagon Fel.

Just to recap our top ten population has 1245 NPCs out of 2824 and the Ashlanders who are 71 NPCS in total this is so small you wonder why Dagoth Ur needed to become a God to kill them all. Hell you could do that in one play through since you can actually kill everything in Morrowind and only guards respawn. Also just to be clear on the total subtract 486 for all repeat characters such as the dead, guards, miners, vampires, cattle ect.

Its disappointing I know but just think what you have to do to become Nerevarine of the Zainab and there are only 10 people in his tribe including the chief before he gets a wife.

Rant over. I still love this game and was thinking that although there is a mod to add NPCs that are spawned and leave its called Morrowind comes alive. I would actually like to see a mod where settlements are expanded in a subtle in lore and nature way. Like for example why are so many NPCs either single or have no parents or siblings. It is rare for the common folk to have families outside of any Great House NPCs I can only think of maybe two characters with either living family or love interests. So maybe adding surviving parents siblings, spouses or partners. Removing all generic guards and adding families to the replaced guards. The fact that there is virtually no industry in Vvardenfell yet everyone is not starving. Maybe add grocers, butchers, bakers and a couple of farms around each settlement. Add things like a tannery or brewery here or there and maybe a couple of extra apartments for these extra characters to live and feel the population density increase.

You could easily get 1000 NPCs doing this sort of thing just in Vvardenfell across actual settlements not bandit lairs. It would also make sense if the Ashlanders were increased in number as seriously House Redoran have more guards then the total Ashlanders.

I wonder what other peoples thoughts are on this. I also hope I haven't spoiled the illusion for anyone.

I personally feel that this should be the actual population for these settlements for believability.

Vivec 600

Ald'ruhn 250
Balmora 200
Sadrith Mora 200

Gnisis 100
Caldera 100
Molag Mar 100
Suran 100
Tel Vos 100
Tel Brannora 100
Maar Gan 100

Pelagiad 50
Gnar Mok 50
Hla Oad 50
Khuul 50
Ald Velothi 50
Dagon Fel 50
Seyda Neen 50

Ashlander tribes should really have over 60 members each since they are a large population and part of the prophecy. (Any more than 64 per tribe becomes unwieldy due to space)

[TheVerySpecialK]

The wizards at Bethesda actually did attempt to create a realistically populated (and sized) game world when they made the Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. Unfortunately, all 750,000 NPCs ended up being generic, lifeless copies of each other (think Assassin's Creed). In part, the last three Elder Scrolls games (Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim) have represented a compromise between realism and detail, sacrificing scale in order to produce a far more intricate (and to many, enjoyable) game experience.

It would certainly be nice to see an Elder Scrolls game with realistic city and population sizes. Advances in procedural generation would help smooth this transition, as attempting to design 100,000 unique NPCs by hand would be way more work than a single studio could realistically handle. Also, the developers would also have to find a way to allow thousands of NPCs to mill about without causing the game to lag (go into Morrowind and spawn a few hundred skeletons; you'll get the picture).

Perhaps Bethesda could find a way to crowd-source NPC designs in their next games: There are thousands out there who would be more than happy to type up NPC dialog and descriptions (for free!). All Bethesda would need to do would be provide some context and a universal format: The remaining workload would simply be proof-reading and editing (which could also be crowd-sourced). Obviously, a system like this wouldn't be viable for essential NPC creation. It would, however, function superbly as a model for the "random" NPCs.

As for the expansion of the current Morrwind population, this would be difficult barring an expansion of the actual continent and cities within: As soon as you add more NPCs, you're going to need more houses, space, etc, which might be more work than some modders are willing to put in. Still though, if a mod like this did end up being fabricated, I certainly wouldn't say no to a copy! I guess one could start by adding a "housing" district to Vivec which would be dominated by nothing more than apartments for new NPCs.

[G-Megas-Doux]

To be honest Skyrim with its radient story and the same with oblivion does feel that they are filling the game with lifeless copies, so many bandits, necromancers, marauders ect out there but that is just me. Its no criticism of Morrowind and I totally respect the reasons and work that they had for the way Morrowind was constructed and I think it was awesome. Just as an aside on Oblivion there are only 900 original NPCs and just over 1000 in Skyrim that means that Morrowind vanilla had more then both games together so that really should be the standard for there games and perhaps the reason that they don't feel so in depth as Morrowind.

I actually enjoy Assassins Creed 1, 2, Brotherhood, Revelations and 4. Hated 3 only forced my way through it after playing 4 which was awesome. Its a different style of game and I really would not want Elder scrolls to go further towards GTA or Assassins creed then they have. I hate the Journal in Skyrim there is no sense of role play any more I cant read the order of what happened or when because no date is recorded and its just here is the mission objectives ticked no introspective update. I loved Morrowind's journal it was perfect once the index was added. It made me feel like I was the Nerevarine cataloguing my memoirs.

I am planning to do an Ashlander plugin for Morrowind btw. Since my rant I have started jotting notes on dividing the Ashlanders into tribal factions, adding tribe members and expanding on the situation for each of the 4 tribes. I've planned out 33 NPCs so far over two of the tribes. This includes Yurt positioning and interpersonal inside family relationships although I need to expand the relationships within the tribe. These are for the Ahemmusa and the Erabenimsum. The Ahemmusa will still be comparatively small due to the problems they are experiencing in game, just a bit bigger by about 12 people. I will make the Zainab the largest tribe so it fits within lore. I am hoping to have planned out more on Saturday. Just been busy the last day. I've also planned out how to keep the camp footprint small but representative of the populations living there. I'm hoping to have an additional 50-60 NPCs spread across the remaining Tribes once I'm finished. The hardest part will be in the actual placement of the camp's yurts, clutter and the NPCs themselves. I've never found that fun always with the floating items. Still a good result will come of it.

[Primus_Canius]

One thing to remember about Morrowind is that its development was hampered by Bethesda's attempts to port it to the early Xbox. I do not think the original Xbox was capable of the complex 3D rendering and processing needed to run 5,000 NPCs in addition to handling scripts and the very unique flora and fauna of Vvardenfell. However, G-Megas-Doux does make a very good point in his reply above about the number of unique NPCs in Morrowind compared to Oblivion and Skyrim. It would appear that Bethesda has decided that enemies exist only for killing violently and don't actually inhabit Tamriel. That would explain why in Morrowind, the PC would be tasked with hunting down Dura gra-Bol whereas in Skyrim, the task would be to hunt down Bandit Leader.

By changing all non-faction "evil" characters into generic NPCs, Bethesda is able to save money from the agonizing task of creating a fictional world so that they have more cash to sink into more important stuff like killcams and flashy level-up screens. Yes, the improved visuals deserve praise and help prop up critic reviews, but to the players who invest large amounts of time into the game, there is little to stall disappointment or resentment. I congratulate Bethesda for adding NPCs worth talking to once to Skyrim (a needed improvement over the near-identical text of Morrowind and the banality of Oblivion's dialogue), but it would appear from the lack of complex personalities and recorded lines that the NPCs were a minor detail in a game where just about every feature was treated as a minor detail.

[G-Megas-Doux]

Welcome to TWC Primus_Canius.

If you total all the settlements and exclude bandit caves and the like, Morrowind is still almost 1700 people. Regarding the much needed improvement in conversational characterisation. I used to be an idealist, like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee and actually started to listen to them. Still at least you can now walk away whilst they are repeating dialogue.

Still I do enjoy Oblivion when I avoid the main quest a shame because Sean Bean is an excellent actor and I enjoy Skyrim when I play through a faction with one character and then restart for another. I still think Morrowind had the best levelling.

I recognise your point about the X-Box I happen to have the game on it and Morrowind GOTY still runs very well on it although loading is like queuing for the only porta loo at a rock festival. It is actually really well ported. My only criticism with X-box was the consul itself scratching the discs because Microsoft could not make a disc drive that would make the disc ride smooth. I had to replace the game once because of it. Also I have to replace Jade Empire as well. Glad I only bought it second hand to play Morrowind when my PC broke back in the day I would have been furious to pay full price only to get the games broken by the hardware.

[Mangalore]

The wizards at Bethesda actually did attempt to create a realistically populated (and sized) game world when they made the Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. Unfortunately, all 750,000 NPCs ended up being generic, lifeless copies of each other (think Assassin's Creed). In part, the last three Elder Scrolls games (Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim) have represented a compromise between realism and detail, sacrificing scale in order to produce a far more intricate (and to many, enjoyable) game experience.
...

I think it would not be a mistake to use flavor like NPCs who are essentially just empty crowd directed system without much AI to give a sense of size and importance and quest driving full AI NPCs.

From an atmospheric point of view Assassin Creed's cities are awesome. Combine that with Skyrim's open world outside the cities and you would have reached an entirely different level in magnitude and immersion imo.

[G-Megas-Doux]

I think it would not be a mistake to use flavor like NPCs who are essentially just empty crowd directed system without much AI to give a sense of size and importance and quest driving full AI NPCs.

From an atmospheric point of view Assassin Creed's cities are awesome. Combine that with Skyrim's open world outside the cities and you would have reached an entirely different level in magnitude and immersion imo.

In Assassins creed all the major settlements are much bigger than anything in Elder Scrolls 3-5. That is how it works you cant possibly say oh they have to many people for the housing because so few of them are accessible and the characters are not identified. It is exactly the same as GTA. Spawn 5 repeatable characters. Elder Scrolls has tried to give their settlements character from scratch where as GTA and Assassins Creed have historical information to work from so it fits better. You walk around and talk to Beggar in Skyrim or Oblivion. At least in Assassins Creed and GTA SA they have the sense not to put a great big screaming sign saying generic NPC over them even though that is exactly what they are you don't have it breaking your immersion.

There is no half way house to do this. You either name every NPC or you do what GTA and Assassins Creed do which is not draw attention to those it does not name and make unique the characters in the main quest.

[Manco]

Are we discussing what the in-game population should be to allow for suspension of disbelief? Or the lore-wise population?

Because according to lore, you need to enhance most those city figures with a factor of 100 at least. And the world needs to be enlarged as well, with most in-game villages simply being representative of a multitude of smaller hamlets and villages. Can't remember what the calculations ended up using Tes II's Daggerfall, but fairly certain Tamriel is supposed to be quite a bit larger than Europe and the imperial City had a million people at its height.

Personally I'd like Tes to go a new route and rather than representing a large area superficially and condensed, go for depth and detail with one city. Orsinium would be a good subject for this.

[G-Megas-Doux]

Well I was going for suspension of disbelief. With the construction set you could never do lore the way that Bethesda are doing it.


I like the Orsinium idea that would be good to realise and might work within the current construction set limitations.


Maybe Bethesda could build the area's into whole separate maps for regions and cities that need loading when traveling outside the separate are then the difficulty becomes man power. If only they had Ubisofts manpower to overcome the amount of work required.

[War lord]

Maybe Bethesda could build the area's into whole separate maps for regions and cities that need loading when traveling outside the separate are then the difficulty becomes man power. If only they had Ubisofts manpower to overcome the amount of work required.

They've already done that since Oblivion, cities are in separate zones from the outside world. And I don't see why you keep comparing what Ubisoft does on Watch Dogs or Assassins Creed to Bethsofts work on Skyrim or Oblivion. Aside from the fact that we're talking totally different engines, (What may be really simple to implement on one engine can be impossible on another.) there's a vast difference between creating hitboxes with basic animations and randomized appearances that play sound clips when you bump into them, and creating RPG NPCs that need to convincingly belong in a world as individuals. They experimented with generic NPC's in Fallout 3 and the effect was painfully immersion breaking. I don't know about you, but it's easier for me to multiply the size of Skyrim by 10X in my head then it is to walk past 5 identical beggars all named "thirsty beggar".

I actually would be willing to assist in a modding project focused on bringing one city to life in extreme detail as a stand alone adventure, though my technical aptitude is limited to placing objects in the editor in Morrowind and Oblivion. (My PC needs a new gpu before I can run my PC copy of Skyrim) I know quite a bit about Lore, even if my knowledge of some of the crazier stuff is limited. I can participate in the brainstorming process and I also have some knowledge of cat herding from leading Arma groups.

[G-Megas-Doux]

Hi, yeah I only talked about Assassins Creed because other people mentioned it, was just continuing the conversation.

I have both Oblivion and Skyrim so I know that. What I am talking about though was that instead of just one whole map for the whole province regionalise it so that the outside areas are whole maps around a city and a whole large city inside. But that would mean that the game size would be 10 x bigger than it is now.

Well at the moment I am just practicing with the construction set and getting into the creativity on the Ashlanders. Expanding the individual tribes identities with their current political situations and planning out how big the tribes are going to get and where to place yurts. Some cells are going to need remapping to accommodate the increased size of the camps and so that will be hard due to placement outdoors is frustrating due to land undulation. Then there is quest design and dialogue implementation. I have 12 solid quest ideas across two tribes although some will need scripting and maybe 4 quest concepts for the remaining two . The good news is that there are help guides for the construction set.

PM me if you would like to get involved in the idea and help with the project. I intend to do the Ashlander mod as one mod and then come back to the individual settlements after them as a second mod. The reason for the Ashlanders is that from what I have researched no-one has tackled the actual depth of the individual tribes and together they number less then any of the individual great houses.