Primary and Secondary Weapons

[Phil of Loreauville]

Ok.
With my disappointment of RTW2 I'm going to make a go of completing my Stainless Steel Mod site, at least the FAUST Tables.
My question is about primary and secondary weapons.
If you look at the Crusader State FAUST (http://www.stainless-steel-mod.com/j...Mod_FAUST.html), you'll see I have the Primary and Secondary weapons listed. I'm wondering now if I'm looking at the right thing in the EDU now.
Could someone check it out and let me know if I have them listed right?

[k/t]

Light Men At Arms have swords, not spears.

Lazarus Knights probably have a halberd or something similar, Voulgiers and Voulge Militia have voulges and Templar Guard have poleaxes, but due to engine requirements they're written as "axe" in the EDU.

Man, you actually bought R2?

[The Tarman]

Ok.
With my disappointment of RTW2 I'm going to make a go of completing my Stainless Steel Mod site, at least the FAUST Tables.
My question is about primary and secondary weapons.
If you look at the Crusader State FAUST (http://www.stainless-steel-mod.com/j...Mod_FAUST.html), you'll see I have the Primary and Secondary weapons listed. I'm wondering now if I'm looking at the right thing in the EDU now.
Could someone check it out and let me know if I have them listed right?

You are the creator of that website? I play Stainless Steel 6.3 and 4 when it came out all the time and I just now this very evening found your website. I only took a glance at it but I am itching to go back and read some more! I have always been the type of total war player who never gets very far into campaigns because of an obsessive compulsive disorder trait or whatever that makes it so I do not want to play anymore when things do not go my way via character traits or one hundred other reasons. I cannot stop trying though! lol

Anyway, back to you my friend.....THANK YOU for creating such a great resource for this great mod that we both like to play so much. I will rep you of course and I hope more people find your gem of a resource for SS as I did and soon!

[Phil of Loreauville]

Thank you for the kind words Tarman. I'm glad you like it. I wish I could spend more time on it because there are many, many things I think I could do to improve it. Not to mention, there are probably scores of mistakes. When I decided to make the site I honestly didn't realize how involved it was going to be.

Man, you actually bought R2?

Yes. I fell victim to the hype.
But when the game developers are sitting there in CA videos telling you all these things that are in it with a straight face, you tend to believe it. At least I did.

But, where in the EDU does it tell what the primary and secondary weapons are?

[Point Blank]

stat_pri = primary weapon
stat_sec = secondary weapon

I've found the battles in R2TW to be a disappointment, as expected. They do not reward or allow tactical gameplay and factors on the battlefield.

As above, my thanks for your tremendous work on your website. Unfortunately the stats will be somewhat altered with RC2.0, but not significantly to the point where your website loses any value. Great work

[Phil of Loreauville]

stat_pri = primary weapon
stat_sec = secondary weapon

Ok this is where I'm confused.

Here's the pri_strat entry for Gothic Foot Knights:

12, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, sword, 30, 1

Now, here's the same entry for Templar Squires.

4, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, blunt, mace, 45, 1

Both show the primary weapon type and tech type as the same, if I'm reading it right. But the in-game description says the Gothic Knights use 2-handed swords while the Squires have maces.
Is there something in the EDU that tells what specific weapon each unit uses?
Does it even matter?
Reading the RC Guide I get a feeling it does.

[k/t]

12, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, sword, 30, 1

4, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, blunt, mace, 45, 1

The weapon used matters because each weapon has different stats and animations.

[Point Blank]

The EDU does not specify 2H OR 1H weapons generally. It can be inferred from attributes for some 2H weapons, eg units that are capable of a phalanx, but otherwise the detail is in the model and the animations it uses. They and the EDU (as k/t shows above) show what type of weapon it is but not the actual weapon the stats are generated from.

I should really specify the weapon used in the EDU, eg an arming sword vs a long sword, but haven't done so. The unit models are armed and armored as depicted, and I can pretty much remember what they are. RC2.0 EDU has more of these specified in the EDU because there are more weapon types. It will also be more evident from the culture and era what the weapon is, eg long swords are mostly found used by later-era units as compared to arming swords. It also depends on the historical usage - most European swords up to the High Era were used for primarily cutting attacks, as against the cut-and-thrust of the long sword.

Will see what I can add to the EDU to show the exact weapon, its easy work.

[Andytheplatypus]

Ok this is where I'm confused.

Here's the pri_strat entry for Gothic Foot Knights:



Now, here's the same entry for Templar Squires.





Both show the primary weapon type and tech type as the same, if I'm reading it right. But the in-game description says the Gothic Knights use 2-handed swords while the Squires have maces.
Is there something in the EDU that tells what specific weapon each unit uses?
Does it even matter?
Reading the RC Guide I get a feeling it does.

Its the animation for the units that distinguish that. Look up the units in the battle_models.db at the very bottom of the unit textures you will see where it says it.

[Point Blank]

That still won't give the exact weapon used - it will show a slashing/cutting-type sword as against a thrusting-type sword, but won't tell you exactly which actual weapon generated the combat stats that are applied via that animation in combat.

You can see this by looking at the latest RC2.0 MEDIEVAL file, available in http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Late-Campaigns . Note different weapons using the same animations.

[Ichon]

Non-couched weapons should have much lower charge value in my opinion. Right now there seem too many times swords offer stronger charge than spears or even occasionally lances especially when combined with the mass effects that many sword armed knights benefit from.

How exactly does the charge bonus work? It is simply a bonus to attack with an extended attack range for a few seconds after charge?

[Phil of Loreauville]

I think I'll just leave off the weapon type for now. I can always add it later.
I'm really hoping to have the FAUST for Kiev up this weekend, then I may look into AOR Units.

[Point Blank]

Non-couched weapons should have much lower charge value in my opinion.

But it should be greater than for an equivalent foot unit agreed?

Right now there seem too many times swords offer stronger charge

In a few cases the combined attack + charge value for swords is 1 or maybe 2 greater than that for a spear, but no purely sword unit has the 'can formed charge' attribute so the charges they can pull of are weaker. Plus, if the sword is a secondary weapon, the charge bonus is never really applied since if the unit is far enough away from its opponent (ie the charge_distance or greater) then the primary spear weapon will be used. Otherwise it will be the sword, but since its not a charge, no charge bonus is added. There are also animation effects for cav weapons that have been changed in RC2.0, as well as the separation of cav into HA, Lancer, Charger or Brawler categories with different bonuses, penalties and animation sets. Good quality cav now causes fear among infantry and very few, if any, purely sword-armed cav have this attribute. I think you will find the many changes to cavalry in 2.0 go quite some way to make a real difference.

than spears or even occasionally lances especially when combined with the mass effects that many sword armed knights benefit from.

How exactly does the charge bonus work? It is simply a bonus to attack with an extended attack range for a few seconds after charge?

Pretty much yes.

[k/t]

I hope you will release the Compilation before disappearing this time, now that you've gotten us all excited.

[Point Blank]

Will do my best