Phalangite stats

[sere]

Let's take a look at pike units.

Which pike units are currently in the game?

BACTRIA:

tier 3 -- Pezoi -- 14 att, 10 ch ; 7 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 18 ; 2T, 2540, 700 ; hardy, good_moral
tier 4 -- Leukaspides -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 950 ; very_hardy, exc_moral
tier 5 -- Agema -- 16 att, 14 ch ; 9 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 24 ; 2T, 3750, 1025 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle


EPIRUS:

tier 2 -- Phalangite -- 14 att, 8 ch ; 6 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 15 ; 2T, 2540, 700 ; hardy, good_moral

tier 4 -- Recalled Ph. -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 950 ; very_hardy, exc_moral
tier 5 -- Agema -- 16 att, 14 ch ; 7 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 22 ; 3T, 3550, 1075 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle


MACEDON:

tier 2 -- Chalkaspides -- 14 att, 8 ch ; 7 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 16 ; 2T, 2540, 750 ; hardy, good_moral

tier 4 -- Leukaspides -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 950 ; very_hardy, exc_moral
tier 5 -- Peltophoroi -- 16 att, 14 ch ; 8 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 23 ; 2T, 3750, 1075 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle


PTOLEMIES:

tier 2 -- Machimoi -- 12 att, 8 ch ; 3 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 12 ; 2T, 2126, 613 ; hardy, good_moral
tier 2 -- Cyrene Pike -- 12 att, 8 ch ; 5 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 16 ; 2T, 2456, 738 ; hardy, good_moral
tier 2 -- Pezoi -- 14 att, 8 ch ; 7 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 16 ; 2T, 2740, 785 ; hardy, good_moral

tier 5 -- Agema -- 16 att, 14 ch ; 8 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 23 ; 2T, 3950, 1050 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle


SELEUCIDS:

tier 3 -- Argyraspides -- 14 att, 10 ch ; 8 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 19 ; 1T, 2550, 825 ; hardy, good_moral, eagle
tier 4 -- Chalkaspides -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 950 ; very_hardy, exc_moral
tier 4 -- Chrysaspides -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 8 ar, 9 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3790, 1000 ; very_hardy, exc_moral


GREEKS:

tier 2 -- Colonial Levy -- 12 att, 8 ch ; 6 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 15 ; 2T, 2456, 738 ; hardy, good_moral
tier 3 -- Rec Spartan -- 14 att, 10 ch ; 7 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 18 ; 2T, 2590, 700 ; hardy, good_moral
tier 4 -- Noble Levy (40) -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 2T, 3860, 1042 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle
tier 4 -- Noble Phalanx -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 9 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 22 ; 2T, 3750, 1025 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle


PONTUS, ARMENIA:

tier 2 -- Hill Country -- 12 att, 14 ch ; 3 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 12 ; 2T, 2094, 612 ; hardy, good_moral
tier 2 -- Freed Slave -- 12 att, 8 ch ; 5 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 14 ; 2T, 2094, 612 ; hardy, good_moral

tier 4 -- Mac Settler -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 950 ; very_hardy, exc_moral


Sorted by tier:

lower TIER 2:

pto -- Machimoi -- 12 att, 8 ch ; 3 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 12 ; 2T, 2126, 613 ; hardy, good_moral
pto -- Cyrene Pike -- 12 att, 8 ch ; 5 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 16 ; 2T, 2456, 738 ; hardy, good_moral

gre -- Colonial Levy -- 12 att, 8 ch ; 6 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 15 ; 2T, 2456, 738 ; hardy, good_moral

pon -- Hill Country -- 12 att, 14 ch ; 3 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 12 ; 2T, 2094, 612 ; hardy, good_moral
pon -- Freed Slave -- 12 att, 8 ch ; 5 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 14 ; 2T, 2094, 612 ; hardy, good_moral


TIER 2:

epi -- Phalangite -- 14 att, 8 ch ; 6 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 15 ; 2T, 2540, 700 ; hardy, good_moral

mac -- Chalkaspides -- 14 att, 8 ch ; 7 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 16 ; 2T, 2540, 750 ; hardy, good_moral

pto -- Pezoi -- 14 att, 8 ch ; 7 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 16 ; 2T, 2740, 785 ; hardy, good_moral


TIER 3:

bac -- Pezoi -- 14 att, 10 ch ; 7 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 18 ; 2T, 2540, 700 ; hardy, good_moral

sel -- Argyraspides -- 14 att, 10 ch ; 8 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 19 ; 1T, 2550, 825 ; hardy, good_moral, eagle

gre -- Rec Spartan -- 14 att, 10 ch ; 7 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 18 ; 2T, 2590, 700 ; hardy, good_moral


TIER 4:

bac -- Leukaspides -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 950 ; very_hardy, exc_moral

epi -- Recalled Ph. -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 950 ; very_hardy, exc_moral

mac -- Leukaspides -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 950 ; very_hardy, exc_moral

sel -- Chalkaspides -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 950 ; very_hardy, exc_moral
sel -- Chrysaspides -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 8 ar, 9 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3790, 1000 ; very_hardy, exc_moral

gre -- Noble Levy (40) -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 2T, 3860, 1042 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle
gre -- Noble Phalanx -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 9 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 22 ; 2T, 3750, 1025 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle

pon -- Mac Settler -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 950 ; very_hardy, exc_moral


TIER 5:

bac -- Agema -- 16 att, 14 ch ; 9 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 24 ; 2T, 3750, 1025 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle

epi -- Agema -- 16 att, 14 ch ; 7 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 22 ; 3T, 3550, 1075 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle

mac -- Peltophoroi -- 16 att, 14 ch ; 8 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 23 ; 2T, 3750, 1075 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle

pto -- Agema -- 16 att, 14 ch ; 8 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 23 ; 2T, 3950, 1050 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle


Notes:

a) Some units in tier 2 and even 3 have lower upkeep costs than some units in lower tier 2 (Cyrene Pikemen, Colonian Levy Phalanx vs. Epirote Phalangite, Bactrian Pezoi, Reconstituted Spartan Phalanx)

b) The charge bonus of Hill Country Phalangites is too high for a tier 2 unit.

c) A unit of Freed Slave Phalanx costs as much as Hill Country Phalangites and Machimoi Spearmen, although it has more armour.

d) Macedonian Chalkaspides and Ptolemaic Pezoi share the same stats, but Ptolemaic Pezoi cost more and have a significantly higher upkeep.

e) Between tier 2 and tier 3, there is hardly any difference in recruitment costs.

f) Bactrian Pezoi and Reconstituted Spartan Phalanx have way to low upkeep for their stats.

g) Seleucid Argyraspides, professional soldiers, are weaker than their settler-veteran colleagues, who would not have been able to focus on and specialize in training in the same way as full time soldiers.

h) There is no significant difference between Seleucid Chalkaspides and Chrysaspides, so the Seleucids can recruit basically the same unit twice. They have no option to recruit a (cheaper) unit of a lower tier from their "Hellenic Settlement" buildings any more.

i) Noble Levy Phalanx is too expensive for having only 40 men and the same stats as Recalled type units.

j) The Bactrian Agema is the best guard phalanx, but has the lowest upkeep.

k) The Epirote Agema costs less than a unit of Recalled Epirote Phalangites. It has the weakest stats of all guard units, but has the highest upkeep cost. Is it intended to take 3 turns to be recruited?

l) Macedonian Peltophoroi and Ptolemaic Agema share the same stats, but differ in recruitment and upkeep costs.

[sere]

Conclusions:

a) Adjusting recruitment and upkeep costs: Presuming the AI decides which units to train primarily based on recruitment costs, these can then be used to guide the AI. The range of upkeep costs can be decreased, especially between tier 2 and 4, thus making the guard units stand out clearly.

b) I'd put Argyraspides up to tier 4, while making Seleucid Chalkaspides an expensive tier 3 unit. Upkeeps of all three Seleucid pike units would be in close range.

Here's my proposition. Adjustments follow the noted points. Changes in bold.


lower TIER 2:

pto -- Machimoi -- 12 att, 8 ch ; 3 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 12 ; 2T, 2126, 620 ; hardy, good_moral
pto -- Cyrene Pike -- 12 att, 8 ch ; 5 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 16 ; 2T, 2456, 700 ; hardy, good_moral

gre -- Colonial Levy -- 12 att, 8 ch ; 6 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 15 ; 2T, 2456, 700 ; hardy, good_moral

pon -- Hill Country -- 12 att, 8 ch ; 3 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 12 ; 2T, 2094, 620 ; hardy, good_moral
pon -- Freed Slave -- 12 att, 8 ch ; 5 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 14 ; 2T, 2234, 670 ; hardy, good_moral


TIER 2:

epi -- Phalangite -- 14 att, 8 ch ; 6 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 15 ; 2T, 2540, 720 ; hardy, good_moral

mac -- Chalkaspides -- 14 att, 8 ch ; 7 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 16 ; 2T, 2540, 740 ; hardy, good_moral

pto -- Pezoi -- 14 att, 8 ch ; 7 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 16 ; 2T, 2640, 740 ; hardy, good_moral


TIER 3:

bac -- Pezoi -- 14 att, 10 ch ; 7 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 18 ; 2T, 2640, 770 ; hardy, good_moral

sel -- Chalkaspides -- 14 att, 10 ch ; 7 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 18 ; 1T, 3190, 800 ; hardy, good_moral

gre -- Rec Spartan -- 14 att, 10 ch ; 7 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 18 ; 2T, 2740, 770 ; hardy, good_moral


TIER 4:

bac -- Leukaspides -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 900 ; very_hardy, exc_moral

epi -- Recalled Ph. -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 900 ; very_hardy, exc_moral

mac -- Leukaspides -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 900 ; very_hardy, exc_moral

sel -- Argyraspides -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 8 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 19 ; 1T, 2940, 870 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle
sel -- Chrysaspides -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 8 ar, 9 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3690, 950 ; very_hardy, exc_moral

gre -- Noble Levy (40) -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 2T, 3860, 950 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle
gre -- Noble Phalanx -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 9 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 22 ; 2T, 3750, 1025 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle

pon -- Mac Settler -- 14 att, 12 ch ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20 ; 1T, 3590, 900 ; very_hardy, exc_moral


TIER 5:

bac -- Agema -- 16 att, 14 ch ; 9 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 24 ; 2T, 3750, 1100 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle

epi -- Agema -- 16 att, 14 ch ; 7 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 22 ; 3T, 3590, 1050 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle

mac -- Peltophoroi -- 16 att, 14 ch ; 8 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 23 ; 2T, 3750, 1075 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle

pto -- Agema -- 16 att, 14 ch ; 8 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 23 ; 2T, 3850, 1075 ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle

[Wien1938]

These changes seem sound for the most part. However, I don't think that the charge bonus is important for the phalangites as it cannot apply when the pikes are lowered, unless they are planned to have an effective secondary charge/attack.

[sere]

That's true, the charge bonus does not matter much. I'm all in for consistency though.

Just for the record: According to EDU, TIER 2 Phalangites have a secondary melee attack (weapon type: sword) of 7, TIER 3 units have 8, TIER 4 units have 9, TIER 5 units have 10. That's quite substantial, considering their armour and unit sizes.

In the other thread, Q.I. wrote:

One thing I'm concerned about: while researching Raphia, I came across Bar-Kochva's distinct disdain for the recalled phalangites. I'm now concerned that making them Tier 4 is overpowering them. I'm wondering if I should drop them to Tier 2 and move all of the levies to Tier 3.

I'm not sure about this. Initially, I opted for dropping the Recalled units to tier 3 to have the Argyraspides stand clearly between guard phalangites and recalled phalangites. The gap between recalled units and guards would have been bigger, too. On the downside, for Bactria and the Seleucids it would have resulted in each of them having two almost identical units, as I was not sure about what to do with Bactrian Pezoi and Seleucid Chalkaspides and Chrysaspides. But the biggest problem with this--and the reason why I stepped away from it in the end--would be to price the units accordingly, imho.
As recruitment and upkeep costs are primary incentives to train certain units, should these be used to 'guide' the AI as well as the player in order to make certain phalangites appear more often than others (e.g. Argyraspides?)? Should therefore recruitment and upkeep costs be completely 'decoupled' from tiers?

[Wien1938]

That said, the secondary attacks would work for the elite phalangites who seem to have retained something of a dual role in our period, being both pikemen and assault troops.

[sere]

Review on upkeep costs

First, a short disclaimer:
I tried to compare the costs of similar units and listed them in groups. Please note that I did not consider recruitment costs at all. Those might be adjusted as necessary. This list is consistent with my (new) concept of Phalangite units.

Second, let me point out a few suggestions about changing the stats of certain units. These will be mentioned later in the actual list, too, but I'd like to bring them up before.

• Campanian Cavalry: At the moment, they have the same stats as other Italic heavy cavalry units, but I don't think that's doing them justice. They are clearly armed in the Greek fashion and their appearance even closely resembles that of Seleucid Lancers. Their unit description underlines this. It would make sense to increase their attack and charge bonus and maybe adding a "bonus fighting cavalry" back in. This would also justify their more expensive upkeep cost.
• Liby-Phoenician Hoplites: Their charge bonus needs to be fixed, it's still 3 instead of 10 (they are a tier 3 unit).
• Mercenary Hoplitai: Their stats could be improved slightly. Anyway, they need "very_hardy". They are professional soldiers at least!
• Principes & Polybian Principes: Could also receive "very_hardy", to reflect their combat experience.
• Thorakitai: They should be moved down to tier 3, as this would keep them in line with similar units like "Greek Thureos Swordsmen" or "Carthaginian Scutarii", which are all in tier 3. Also, they appear to have rather derived from Thureophoroi than from elite hypaspists, according to their unit description.
• Iberian Elite Scutarii: Their stats are somewhat messed up. Labeled as a tier 5 unit, only the charge value is really tier 5-like, while stat_mental reads "112, impetuous, trained"
• Judean Thureophoroi: Their upkeep is too high for a unit size of 30. Compared to 'standard' Thureophoroi, their old unit size matches their upkeep quite well. Why was it changed to 30?
• Hoplites in general should still be comparatively expensive, especially elite units.

Further suggestions for minor changes can be found in the list.


Third, the list:

(unit name): (upkeep) -> (suggested upkeep)    ; (notes)


_ _ _ ARTILLERY _ _ _

Ballistas: 216 -> 720    ; maintenance, logistics, highly skilled experts ...

Scorpions: 216 -> 660

(Roman) Ballistas: 316 -> 840

(Roman) Scorpions: 316 -> 780


_ _ _ LIGHT SPEARMEN _ _ _

Bactrian Infantry: 318 -> 352        ; compare to Thracian Peltasts, Black Sea Militia (340 ; unit size = 50)

Mesopotamian Spearmen: 428 -> 378    ; remove "Combat bonus in desert"!

Mountain Indians: 462 -> 392

Nubian Mercenaries: 462 -> 422

Indian Spearmen: 628 -> 408

Levantine Militia: 698 -> 498


_ _ _ SKIRMISHERS _ _ _

Indian Infantry: 442 -> 402
_ _ _ _ _

Lybian Javelinmen: 130 -> 222    ; compare to Akontistai
_ _ _ _ _

Syrian Archers: 342 -> 260


_ _ _ HEAVY PELTASTS / LIGHT INF _ _ _

"Macedonian" City Militia: 322 -> 332

Persian Axemen: 412

Cappadocian Infantry: 412

Caramanian Infantry: 412 -> 398

Syrian Infantry: 412 -> 382

Agrianian Skirmishers: 365 -> 392

Armenian & Pontic Peltast (reformed): 462 -> 422

Illyrian Heavy Peltasts: 402 -> 442    ; add "prec" (?)

Oscan Skirmishers: 490 -> 460

Judean Thureophoroi: 581 -> 601        ; increase unit size to 40!
_ _ _ _ _

Germanic Spearmen: 388 -> 378    ; unit size = 50

Warband: 388

Etrurian Spearmen: 685 -> 565    ; unit size = 60


_ _ _ SWORDSMEN / MEDIUM INF _ _ _

Bastarnae Infantry: 486 -> 506    ; unit size = 50

Galatian Infantry: 422 -> 502    ; same stats as Bastarnae Infantry

Gallic Swordsmen: 508        ; same stats as Bastarnae Infantry

Celtiberian Scutarii: 520

Germanic Swordsmen: 411 -> 421

Vettone Infantry: 408 -> 428
_ _ _ _ _

Belgic Swordsmen: 428 -> 414        ; unit size = 40

Caetrati Falcata: 420

Iberian Swordsmen: 593 -> 493

Ligurian Swordsmen: 438 -> 478

Scutarii Falcata: 520 -> 495

Epirote Swordsmen: 486 = base value

Samnite Light Infantry: 545 -> 486    ; same stats as Epirote Swordsmen

Umbrian Swordsmen: 545 -> 486        ; same stats as Epirote Swordsmen

Hastati: 538 -> 472

Thracian Infantry: 583

Armoured Black Sea Militia: 580

Ksatrya: 686 -> 596

Rep. Legionaries (newly raised): 810 -> 610    ; tier 2, unit size = 40


_ _ _ "ELITE" SWORDSMEN / HEAVY INF _ _ _

Thorakitai: 722                ; tier 4 - move down to tier 3! (10 att, 7 mis, 10 ch; 9 ar, 8 def, 4 sh; very_hardy) - change armour type to "metal"!

Greek Thureos Swordsmen: 740        ; tier 3 - add very_hardy!

Armenian & Pontic Thorakitai: 696    ; tier 3

Polybian Principes: 920 -> 780        ; tier 3 - add Very_hardy!

Carthaginian Scutarii: 810 -> 710    ; tier 3, very_hardy

Rep. Evocati Legionaries: 1110 -> 910    ; tier 4

Boii Ambacti: 1102 -> 852        ; tier 4

Celtic Ambacti: 1102 -> 862        ; tier 4

Galatian Swordsmen: 1102 -> 872        ; tier 4 - split Mercenary unit ("aor galatia swordsmen") => upkeep: 932 (?)

Germanic Warriors: 622 -> 652        ; tier 4

Rep. First Cohort Legionaries: 1200    ; tier 5
_ _ _ _ _

Oscan Veteran Infantry: 638 -> 652    ; tier 4, unit size = 30

Celtiberian Ambacti: 620 -> 660        ; tier 4

Lusitanian Heavy Caetrati: 622 -> 642    ; tier 4

Iberian Elite Scutarii: 720 (if T4: -> 650 / T5: -> 750) ; tier 5 -- they have tier 4 stats, except for charge; stat_mental = 112 - please fix!

Germanic Champions: 725            ; tier 5

Germanic Armoured Champions: 725 -> 750    ; tier 5 -- same stats as Soldurii

Soldurii: 1002 -> 762            ; tier 5, unit size = 30 (+3 off.), command

Scordisci Soldurii: 1002 -> 752        ; tier 5, unit size = 30

Royal Agema etc.: 1202 -> 1122        ; tier 5

(Bactrian) Hypaspist: 1202 -> 1142    ; tier 5


_ _ _ HOPLITES _ _ _

Campanian Hoplites: 660 -> 790    ; tier 3, unit size = 60 (!)

Etrurian Hoplite: 860 -> 760    ; tier 3, unit size = 40

Umbrian Hoplite: 788 -> 710    ; tier 2, unit size = 40

Persian Kardakes Hoplites: 712 -> 782    ; tier 3 -- same stats as Campanian Hoplites

Hoplitai: 860 -> 780        ; tier 2 -- compare to Pike units

Mercenary Hoplitai: 962 -> 922        ; tier 3 -- defence skill 7 - increase to 8! ; add very_hardy!

Indo-Greek Hoplites: 950 -> 860        ; tier 3

Liby-Phoenician Hoplites: 960 -> 850    ; tier 3 -- charge bonus 3 (!) - please fix!

(Camillan) Principes: 720 -> 700    ; tier 3, unit size = 40 -- same stats as Campanian Hoplites (!) - add very_hardy!
_ _ _ _ _

Camillan Triarii: 545 -> 605        ; tier 4, unit size = 20

Polybian Triarii: 545 -> 615        ; tier 4, unit size = 20

Illyrian Infantry: 765 -> 705        ; tier 3, unit size = 30

Epilektoi Hoplitai: 1280 -> 980        ; tier 4 -- defence skill 11 - decrease to 9!

Athinaioi Ep. Hoplitai: 1145 -> 1040    ; tier 4 -- defence skill 9 - increase to 10!

Cretan Ep. Hoplitai: 980 -> 890        ; tier 3

Milesian Nobles: 1220 -> 1020        ; tier 4

Phocaean Nobles: 1220 -> 1020        ; tier 4

Spartiatai Hoplitai: 1310 -> 1130    ; tier 4 -- defence skill 9 - increase to 11!

Syracusai Ep. Hoplitai: 1210 -> 1120    ; tier 4 -- 2 hitpoints


_ _ _ HORSE ARCHERS _ _ _

Caspian Horse Archers: 601    ; unit size = 34

Getae Horse Archers: 595 -> 585

Horse Archers: 601

Scythian & Dahae Horse Archers: 535

Sogdian Horse Archers: 602

Syrian Horse Archers: 702 -> 582    ; unit size = 25

Bedouin Archers: 607 -> 562        ; unit size = 24


_ _ _ LIGHT CAV _ _ _

Epirote Cavalry: 688 -> 518    ; unit size = 20 (!) - increase to 24!

Seleucid Light Cavalry: 653 -> 533    ; increase unit size to 24!

Tarentine Cavalry: 688 -> 568        ; increase unit size to 24!
_ _ _ _ _

Cantabrian Cavalry: 624 -> 694

Arachosian Hippakontistai: 691

Bastarnae Light Cavalry: 633 -> 708

Batavi Cavalry: 695 -> 710

Germanic Light Cavalry: 822 -> 682

Numidian Cavalry: 694

Paionian Cavalry: 624 -> 674
_ _ _ _ _

Aetolian Cavalry: 619

Caetrati Cavalry: 624

Celtiberian Cavalry: 664 -> 634        ; increase def skill to 8!

Keltoi Light Cavalry: 664 -> 634    ; former "Barbarian Light Cav" - increase def skill to 8!

Thracian Light Cavalry: 625

Indian Light Cavalry: 603

Hebrew Cavalry: 577 -> 592

Keltoi Light Cavalry: 585    ; "leuce epos"

Steppe Cavalry: 612 -> 577

Asiatic Hippakontistai: 517

Hippakontistai: 494

Persian Hippakontistai: 512

Italic Light Cavalry: 494 -> 509

Prodromoi: 494 = base value
_ _ _ _ _

Arab Cavalry: 542        ; unit size = 20 - increase to 24!

Bedouin Warriors: 530        ; unit size = 20 - increase to 24!

Getae Cavalry: 577        ; unit size = 34

Illyrian Cavalry: 542 -> 592    ; unit size = 34


_ _ _ HEAVY CAV _ _ _

Cappadocian Lancers: 702 -> 722        ; tier 3, very_hardy

Sarmatian Cavalry: 1002 -> 972        ; tier 3

Medes Heavy Cavalry: 1100 -> 1060    ; tier 4

Pontic Lancers: 1011 -> 1071        ; tier 4

Iberian Cataphract: 1200        ; tier 4

Armenian Lancers: 1300 -> 1200        ; tier 4

Parthian Lancers: 1200            ; tier 4 -- same stats as Armenian Lancers

Sarmatae Basilikon Hippeis: 1550 -> 1140    ; tier 4 -- only 10 att (!) - increase attack, add command (?)

Saka Noble Cavalry: 1300        ; tier 4

Epirote Basilikon Agema: 1080 -> 1055    ; tier 4

(Macedon) Hetairoi: 1115 -> 1085    ; tier 4

(Ptolemaic) Hetairoi: 1170 -> 1090    ; tier 4

Seleucid Lancers: 1015            ; tier 3, unit size = 22 - add very_hardy!

Seleucid Cataphracts: 1170        ; tier 3, unit size = 22 - add very_hardy!

Bactrian Hetairoi: 1042 -> 1105        ; tier 5 - add command (?)

Bactrian Hetairoi Archers: 1115 -> 1095    ; tier 4 -- no bonus vs. cav - add command (?)

Thessalian Heavy Cavalry: 1000 -> 1125    ; tier 5 -- no bonus vs. cav

Scythian Cavalry: 1501 -> 1401        ; tier 4

(Seleucid) Agema: 1500            ; tier 5
_ _ _ _ _

Scutarii Cavalry: 1039 -> 1079        ; tier 5

Bastarnae Heavy Cavalry: 1044 -> 1064    ; tier 4

Boii Cavalry: 1045 -> 1065        ; tier 4

Celtiberian Heavy Cavalry: 1039        ; tier 4

Germanic Noble Cavalry: 1111        ; tier 4, unit size = 24

Keltoi Heavy Cavalry: 1215 -> 1040    ; tier 4 -- "barb noble cavalry gaul" & "barb noble cavalry briton"

Keltoi Heavy Cavalry: 1128 -> 1065    ; same stats -- "aor gaul heavy cavalry"

Bactrian Cavalry: 800 -> 775        ; tier 3

Punic Cavalry: 980            ; tier 3, very_hardy

Campanian Cavalry: 1190 -> 1070        ; tier 3 - change stats! (10 att, 32 ch; 9 ar, 10 def, 0 sh; mount effect "horse +2"; very_hardy)

Etruscan Heavy Cavalry: 1002 -> 987    ; tier 3

Oscan Heavy Cavalry: 1090 -> 1010    ; tier 3

Equites: 1045 -> 985            ; tier 3, unit size = 15

Polybian Equites: 1128 -> 998        ; only difference to Equites are the officers

Equites Alares: 1128 -> 1022        ; unit size = 20
_ _ _ _ _

Aspidophoroi: 1050            ; tier 4

Galatian Noble Cavalry: 1039        ; tier 4

Germanic Heavy Cavalry: 1015        ; tier 4, unit size = 24

Noble Cantabrian Cavalry: 899 -> 969    ; tier 4

Persian Heavy Cavalry: 1200 -> 1080    ; tier 4

Thorakismenoi Hippakontistai: 1300 -> 900    ; tier 3

Sogdian Cataphract: 1500 -> 1300    ; tier 4
_ _ _ _ _

Getic Nobles: 822            ; tier 4 - remove "prec" (?)

Armenian Noble Cavalry: 1022        ; tier 4

Sarmatae Kataphraktoi: 1100 -> 1025    ; tier 4

Dahae Armoured Horse Archer: 1105 -> 1065    ; tier 4

Albanian Cataphracts: 1105 -> 1065    ; tier 4


_ _ _ CHARIOTS _ _ _

Indian Chariots: 1480 -> 1280


_ _ _ SHIPS _ _ _

Warships: 200 -> 500        ; or more? -- compare to ships of "civilized" factions

Large Warships: 300 -> 700

[sere]

Here's another concept on Phalangite stats.

I kept most points of the concept presented earlier in this thread, so the only major difference was moving the recalled units from tier 4 down to tier 3. Accordingly, I substantially reduced their upkeep costs, putting them inbetween tier 2 levy phalangites and tier 4/5 elite units. The "weakest" unit of the Seleucids has got the same stats as Bactrian Pezoi and Reconstituted Spartan Phalanx, while the Chrysaspides have a bit more armour than a "standard" recalled unit. Both Seleucid units in tier 3 retained their high recruitment costs. In addition to its Pezoi, Bactria received a "standard" recalled phalangite. Instead, they could get a copy of the Seleucid setup, maybe?!
Overall, I think this concept presents a nice progression from tier 2 units to recalled phalangites to elite tier 4 and 5, so that every unit is a viable option for recruitment.

--Pike Units modified--


lower TIER 2:

- pto -- Machimoi    - 12 att, 8 ch    ; 3 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 12    ; 2T, 2126, 640    ; hardy, good_moral
- pto -- Cyrene Pike    - 12 att, 8 ch    ; 5 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 16    ; 2T, 2456, 700    ; hardy, good_moral

- gre -- Colonial Levy    - 12 att, 8 ch    ; 6 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 15    ; 2T, 2456, 700    ; hardy, good_moral

- pon -- Hill Country    - 12 att, 8 ch    ; 3 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 12    ; 2T, 2094, 640    ; hardy, good_moral
- pon -- Freed Slave    - 12 att, 8 ch    ; 5 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 14    ; 2T, 2234, 680    ; hardy, good_moral


TIER 2:

- epi -- Phalangite    - 14 att, 8 ch    ; 6 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 15    ; 2T, 2540, 720    ; hardy, good_moral

- mac -- Chalkaspides    - 14 att, 8 ch    ; 7 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 16    ; 2T, 2540, 740    ; hardy, good_moral

- pto -- Pezoi        - 14 att, 8 ch    ; 7 ar, 6 ds, 3 sh = 16    ; 2T, 2640, 740    ; hardy, good_moral


TIER 3:

- bac -- Pezoi         - 14 att, 10 ch    ; 7 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 18    ; 2T, 2740, 780    ; hardy, good_moral
- bac -- Leukaspides     - 14 att, 10 ch    ; 7 ar, 9 ds, 3 sh = 19    ; 1T, 3390, 820    ; hardy, good_moral

- epi -- Recalled Ph.    - 14 att, 10 ch    ; 7 ar, 9 ds, 3 sh = 19    ; 1T, 3390, 820    ; hardy, good_moral

- mac -- Leukaspides    - 14 att, 10 ch    ; 7 ar, 9 ds, 3 sh = 19    ; 1T, 3390, 820    ; hardy, good_moral

- sel -- Chalkaspides    - 14 att, 10 ch    ; 7 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 18    ; 2T, 3190, 780    ; hardy, good_moral
- sel -- Chrysaspides    - 14 att, 10 ch    ; 8 ar, 9 ds, 3 sh = 20    ; 1T, 3490, 860    ; hardy, good_moral

- gre -- Rec Spartan    - 14 att, 10 ch    ; 7 ar, 8 ds, 3 sh = 18    ; 2T, 2740, 780    ; hardy, good_moral

- pon -- Mac Settler    - 14 att, 10 ch    ; 7 ar, 9 ds, 3 sh = 19    ; 1T, 3390, 820    ; hardy, good_moral


TIER 4:

- sel -- Argyraspides    - 14 att, 12 ch    ; 8 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 21; 1T, 3040, 880    ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle

- gre -- Noble Levy 80    - 14 att, 12 ch    ; 7 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 20; 2T, 3760, 950    ; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle
- gre -- Noble Phalanx    - 14 att, 12 ch    ; 9 ar, 10 ds, 3 sh = 22; 2T, 3650, 1025; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle


TIER 5:

- bac -- Agema         - 16 att, 14 ch    ; 9 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 24; 2T, 3750, 1100; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle

- epi -- Agema        - 16 att, 14 ch    ; 7 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 22; 3T, 3590, 1050; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle

- mac -- Peltophoroi    - 16 att, 14 ch ; 8 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 23; 2T, 3750, 1075; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle

- pto -- Agema        - 16 att, 14 ch    ; 8 ar, 12 ds, 3 sh = 23; 2T, 3850, 1075; very_hardy, exc_moral, eagle