Modern Christianity and sex

[Lord Thesaurian]

I came across this article on a Christian website and, though it was written for girls, it resonated very strongly with the reservations and criticisms I have of the way most Christian and pro-abstinence groups promote abstinence - not with the fact that abstinence is promoted, but with the way that promotion is commonly done.

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life...t-me-about-sex

These are issues that have troubled me for some time, not for personal reasons as much as for concerns about my friends and acquaintances who've been affected by it. I echo the article's criticism's 100%, and you can imagine the male counterparts to her story. In addition, I know quite a few people who've been raised as Christians and were told, like I was, that sex is some kind of magical heavenly mind-blowing experience that will be "ruined" if not kept locked up until the wedding night. For that reason alone, I've seen these same people rush into marriage for solely because they felt they could no longer restrain themselves from going "all the way" with their partner and didn't want to "commit fornication" so they got married to "uncage the beast." No, I'm not kidding. Then I hear from these same people 1-5 later who are having marriage problems because their marriage was based on a crazy fantasy impressed on them by their religion; or worse, affairs and ugly divorces that happen down the road as disillusionment and resentment simmer within the home and build up to the breaking point.

Like the article says, I'm not saying that people who choose to be abstinent are somehow foolish by default, but I think there is serious misinformation about sex and sexuality that is peddled by religious leaders in order to sell their pro-abstinence agenda. Are there any Christians/similarly raised people here who would like to share their experiences or comment on the article?

As for me, I would say the effect of the abstinence message on me was mostly negative. I learned a long time ago that sex is not automatically going to be some wild trip to nirvana the first time around - if ever; especially not just because the wedding night is somehow magical. The real impact was with the guilt, anxiety, and self-loathing it caused. I was constantly told that any sexual thought or impulse, be it checking out a pretty girl or thinking about one or whatever, was a slippery slope to the gates of STDs and eternal hellfire.

The "sex ed" at the Christian school I attended until the 11th grade was nothing more than a single semester in the 8th grade in which horribly disfigured, diseased and emotionally damaged people were paraded in front of a camera while they cursed and decried not just fornication, but sex itself, as the source of their woes. I was told that men are essentially all uncontrollable rapists and therefore women must guard themselves at all times lest we catch them wearing a low-cut shirt and tear them to shreds. Hence you can imagine how much guiltier I felt about my own sexuality (am I really a rapist just because I like girls?) And so I was taught to despise sex and sexuality even though I obviously quite enjoyed at least the idea of it myself. Therefore sex became a shameful secret, one often imagined but never dared to be acted upon. So here I am, a 21 year old virgin, still haunted by the fear and loathing that I was taught; fear of disease, fear of inexperience, of rejection and failure; having never developed any sort of relationship skills because I was constantly told that even the thought any slightest romantic engagement or flirting with the opposite sex was downright sinful and shameful.

Sorry to rant, but it's a subject that has angered me some when I still see thousands of people and pastors preaching about the wonders of abstinence using the very same methods that arguably are responsible for my ed up views of sex and sexuality today. Perhaps some of you have a similar or more positive story? Of course commentary from outside critics is just as appreciated.

[ggggtotalwarrior]

I just ignore the religious people. If something happens it happens, if not, oh well.

I feel like religion and natural human needs should not be mixed, just like politics and religion should not be mixed.

[Symphony]

I just ignore the religious people. If something happens it happens, if not, oh well.

I feel like religion and natural human needs should not be mixed, just like politics and religion should not be mixed.

Which is fine, until you consider that religion itself is something of a "natural human need" (it wouldn't have developed or survived otherwise).

The real root of the problem that the OP is getting at is that for those people, raised in those environments, their entire moral development is defined by those religious beliefs...when your entire internal system of right and wrong, that you've been absorbing since you were old enough to understand language, supports those attitudes, dismissing those attitudes isn't at all simple...it's a complete paradigm shift. It's exceedingly rare that we as human beings completely shrug off that early "indoctrination" (sorry, i know that's an inflammatory term, i just can't think of a better one right this second), and often by the time somebody develops enough maturity to do so, the damage has already been done.

[Knight of Heaven]

So they got into marriage because they wanted to uncage the beast, it seems for all their morals, they forgot what love is all about, and sharing one another and the beuty of it.
I mean i was raised, as a catholic, even though, i dont consider myself a religious person, or a catholic, even as a kid i never had such dogmas shapening my live, i respect and admire, some things and what represents even, i just think everything has its place, personaly i find you dont need some religious ceremonial in order to make love to someone, but i dont argue against people that feel otherwise, im quite liberal that way.
But i always learned about respect, and love for another person. It seems rushing into marriage just so to have sex, is more of a childish thing to do imo, it might be a fruit of their religious enviroment, or rather education imo. With all their ethics, and morals, they kinda forget the whole point. Then again, im not 18 or 20, waiting and some kinda of other childish games it isnt going to fly with me, never did realy, i obviously respect everyone decision, even though i find the notion of waiting until marriage not only old fashioned, also a bit missing the point. But thats just me.
About the marriages being ruined... well i think that is subjective, and a diferent matter, i seen alot of marriages ruined regardless if they had sex before or not. I think marriage is a diferent beast. Sex/love might be an important part of it, but there is alot more to it than that, alot more. Honesly i think people this days are very imature regardless if they folow religious dogmas or not, so i think they have trouble most of the time learning to live together etc. Thats why people this days marry much later in life then it used to be, generaly speaking, of course.

[Flinn]

oh Lord, I don't know if to laugh, scream or cry after I read that article

It took me several months to stop having that sick-to-my-stomach guilty feeling every time I was together with my husband. Not everyone experiences this, but for the many people who do, it’s terribly isolating. Once again we’re experiencing something our churches and communities never acknowledged as a possibility. We feel alone and broken and filled with a profound sense that this isn’t the way it’s meant to be.

now this lady might be a particular one, but honestly from what I read she seems to be perfectly normal, she was just cheated, nothing less.
The fact that she had to suffer while she had infact to enjoy every second of her life with the husband is terrible and makes me rage, I can only think (and thus I can only barely and partially justify them) that only those who never really experienced love would dare to tell others how do they have to deal with it; I cannot think of anything more personal than love. I say love because it's evident that by lieing to her about sex they almost completely ruined her possibilities to have a normal matrimonial life, something that is in the rights of each of us and should be inalienable.
Look I'm a christian believer (though I have a very private approach to religion and to faith) and from my point of view I can't see any worse sin for a christian that to ruin someone's else life/happines because of personal distorted believes (or even personal turnover, oh the horror ).

I can only say that his has nothing to do with the teachings of true christian fait (I had once a long post on this on the philosophy forum, so I don't want to get over it again, sorry).

The "sex ed" at the Christian school I attended until the 11th grade was nothing more than a single semester in the 8th grade in which horribly disfigured, diseased and emotionally damaged people were paraded in front of a camera while they cursed and decried not just fornication, but sex itself, as the source of their woes. I was told that men are essentially all uncontrollable rapists and therefore women must guard themselves at all times lest we catch them wearing a low-cut shirt and tear them to shreds. Hence you can imagine how much guiltier I felt about my own sexuality (am I really a rapist just because I like girls?) And so I was taught to despise sex and sexuality even though I obviously quite enjoyed at least the idea of it myself. Therefore sex became a shameful secret, one often imagined but never dared to be acted upon. So here I am, a 21 year old virgin, still haunted by the fear and loathing that I was taught; fear of disease, fear of inexperience, of rejection and failure; having never developed any sort of relationship skills because I was constantly told that even the thought any slightest romantic engagement or flirting with the opposite sex was downright sinful and shameful.

that something like this could happen in a civilized country is a nightmare to me; this form of mind control and indoctrination should be prohibited by the law, just like any other form of control via distorted ideologies; I know my ideas are very personal in this regard, but I can't refrain to get terribly angry when I see such horrible things, I apologize.

Sorry to rant, but it's a subject that has angered me some when I still see thousands of people and pastors preaching about the wonders of abstinence using the very same methods that arguably are responsible for my ed up views of sex and sexuality today.

that's it, that's what they obtained: they angered you when there should only be pleasure and love. I was not aware that it was so seriuos, if it is like it seems, you should really fight it; man, here we have the Vatican, and I can ensure you that I never saw or heard about anything similar (not in the last 60 years anyway).
If I will be aware that my kids or even my nepews are going through something like this, someone will have to pay for it, for sure; I can't even think of parents willingly leaving their kids on the hands of such people, only deep ignorance would be a justification for me; once more this is personal, and I want to clarify the point that I have nothing against abstinence at all and that I respect fully those who willingly decide not to have sex out of marriage (or out of a seriuos story anyway); willingly, that's the key word: grown up, not indoctrinated, free persons, that following their personal believes and baseing themselves on their own experiences, freely decide to maintain abstinence.

[Symphony]

So they got into marriage because they wanted to uncage the beast, it seems for all their morals, they forgot what love is all about, and sharing one another and the beuty of it.
I mean i was raised, as a catholic, even though, i dont consider myself a religious person, or a catholic, even as a kid i never had such dogmas shapening my live, i respect and admire, some things and what represents even, i just think everything has its place, personaly i find you dont need some religious ceremonial in order to make love to someone, but i dont argue against people that feel otherwise, im quite liberal that way.
But i always learned about respect, and love for another person. It seems rushing into marriage just so to have sex, is more of a childish thing to do imo, it might be a fruit of their religious enviroment, or rather education imo. With all their ethics, and morals, they kinda forget the whole point.

That's kind of the point; the ethic that sex is one part of the beauty of a loving relationship is an ethic that's missing from these people's moral environement; it's not that they forget it, it's more that it's never learned or presented that way. Sex is less about being part of a relationship (even a married relationship); it's actually separated into a completely standalone moral responsibility; the link between the two is missed.

The Catholic Church isn't usually the worst offender here; it's generally the charismati Protestant branches that take things to that extreme.

[Gatsby]

I've always maintained that the abstainers are the most sex-obsessed of all.

[Ciciro]

I more you think about not having sex, the more you think about sex.

[Condottiere 40K]

That's why god granted us the miracle of the internet and broadband.

There are probably a mixture of motives that finally evolved into celibacy and chastity; the Western European experience may have less emphasis that the virginity of women is the property of the clan, so greater stress would have been laid on it's evil nature if it's not been sanctified by marriage.

[Roma_Victrix]

That's why god granted us the miracle of the internet and broadband.

There are probably a mixture of motives that finally evolved into celibacy and chastity; the Western European experience may have less emphasis that the virginity of women is the property of the clan, so greater stress would have been laid on it's evil nature if it's not been sanctified by marriage.

As a historian, this is all rather funny to me, actually. For instance, having pre-marital sex in Shakespeare's day was frowned upon but was commonplace among the urban poor, all of whom were nominally Christian if living in Europe. Couples would have sex and later get married if the first stages of pregnancy became apparent. Marriage was also a pretty quick and easy affair for the poor in Western society at the time. As a whole, aristocratic ladies allegedly waited and remained celibate until after the wedding ceremony, as far as we know. It's also funny to compare the absolute bawdiness and open sexuality of the 18th century with the prudishness of the 19th century and the Victorian Age. I guess every generation is different.

For instance, we're certainly less licentious than hippies in the 1960s, I would imagine:

"Hey babe! Nice sandals...I don't know you're name yet, but uh...wanna go behind the rainbow-colored van parked over there and screw?"

Compare that to the 1950s and early 1960s when you actually had to put serious concerted effort to get Betty the bobble-haired date to give up her virginity at the drive-in movie theater in the back seat of your Cadillac. Any guy with slick Elvis hair, tight blue jeans, and a black leather jacket could pull it off, though.

[Condottiere 40K]

I'm quite aware of handfasting, and trying out the cow to see if she gives milk.

You have an institution, the Church, trying to exert social control, which is essentially an outside force, as compared to the Middle East, where these tendencies seem to stem from the clan. It would be an interesting question if this stems from maintaining that tribal outlook has resulted in that culture, compared to what appears a more relaxed classical attitude.

In a society where families sealed alliances by bartering their children, especially the aristocracy and tribes in harsh environments, these may be desirable survival traits.

[Darth Red]

Thread moved out of the TD and into the more appropriate EMM.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Jesus had a wife

They must have made love.

How should it stop you or any other person?

The blame goes on religious preachers.

[Diocle]

They talk always about sex because it's their first and main thought!

Look at the hundred cases of child abuses committed by Catholic priests in USA and everywhere in the world! Disgusting hypocrites!

[fkizz]

This isn't the XVIII century anymore. You can do whatever you want, there's no Inquisition to get you. Church has barely any control.

You can get all the HIV, Gonorreia, Syphilis, Papiloma virus, Herpes, and blow money on abortions, the Church won't even care or lift a finger.

If you say the church is obsessed with sex, discussable, I must remark that atheists seem more obsessed with the church than church is with sex.

Anyway pope francis is already moving to make things more sexuality free, I wonder what people will invent next to complain about

[Denny Crane!]

They talk always about sex because it's their first and main thought!

Look at the hundred cases of child abuses committed by Catholic priests in USA and everywhere in the world! Disgusting hypocrites!

What a profound thought.

[Col. Tartleton]

Actually Diocle I'd rather not look at kids getting molested.

Must be my nihilism.

[Shaxx]

They talk always about sex because it's their first and main thought!

Look at the hundred cases of child abuses committed by Catholic priests in USA and everywhere in the world! Disgusting hypocrites!

"The moment they entered the city of the maker, their sin poisoned it. What had been golden turned black, and violently they were flung from the world of dreams back into the waking world. Twisted and corrupted by their crime into monsters, they fled underground, unable to bear the light of day."

~ Threnodies 8:21-27, The Chant of Light