The Warsaw Uprising; What did they actually hope to achieve?

[IrishBlood]

My understanding is that they wanted to try and free the city for a democratic Poland before the soviets got there and install a puppet Polish government.

Did they honestly think they would be able to drive out the german forces from the city and then hold back the German counter attack without any outside aid?
Did they predict that the Soviets would halt their advance to allow the uprising to be crushed?

Would it have been possible for them to hold off the uprising until the Soviets had begun their assault on the city and then attack the German garrison while they were already battling the soviet advance, or would it have been too late by then? e.g due to heavy german reinforcement of the city, soviet bombardment etc.

[Visna]

It was part of Operation Tempest, the overall goal of which was to liberate key ares in Poland before the Soviet arrival.

[Werewolfviking]

I am no expert on the subject and have not studied this much but I remember hearing some where that the Polish expected to be helped by the Soviets, not sure though as I have little knowledge of the subject.

[preussen6]

For me the best way was make bigger partisant group and go out from Poland like them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Cr...ntains_Brigade.

sry for my english

[Dromikaites]

The Polish government in exile and the commanders of the Polish Home Army knew there would be no help from the Soviets. What they did not imagine was the Soviets would be downright hostile and would liquidate the Home Army.

The scenario the Home Army had in mind was that the Germans were too weak to resist the insurrection and that the Soviets would not pass the opportunity to add to the destruction of the German forces, once the fighting has started.

Both assumptions turned out to be partially right (and therefore partially wrong).

In some places the Germans were successfully dealt with, in some places the Soviets jumped in. But the Germans held onto Warsaw and the Soviets didn't budge there.

And as I said, even in those places where the Polish Home Army was successful or where the Polish and the Soviets cooperated spontaneously, the Soviets arrested, killed or forcibly recruited into the communist People's Guard everybody from the Home Army.

Had the Poles known how the Soviets would deal with them they would have probably saved their strength for an anti-Soviet uprising when the Red Army would have been at the old German-Polish border.

That way for the same human cost they would have brought the Western allies at the Polish border (or very close to it). Under such circumstances it would have been impossible for Stalin to transform Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe into Soviet fiefs.

[kanecaston]

It is ironic that these nations that suffered so terribly under NAZI Germany were among those countries that resisted the USSRs requests to allow the USSR to preemptively crush Hitler. It was these states, and the reluctance of the western nations to go against Hitler that forced Stalin to make the Molotov Ribbentrop deal in order to buy Russia more time to prepare for the war. Bet by the time they were getting partitioned Poland and the other countries wished they had gone along with Russia earlier and allowed safe passage of the red army to invade and crush the NAZI forces. Their Russophobia and indeed Jew phobia, their racism (Jewish peoples were 50/50 contributing to the original creation of the USSR along with Russians), cost eastern Europe millions of lives that could have been prevented.

[Wulfburk]

^ I have never seen a more biased post in my life.

Congratz.

[Mangalore]

It is ironic that these nations that suffered so terribly under NAZI Germany were among those countries that resisted the USSRs requests to allow the USSR to preemptively crush Hitler. It was these states, and the reluctance of the western nations to go against Hitler that forced Stalin to make the Molotov Ribbentrop deal in order to buy Russia more time to prepare for the war. Bet by the time they were getting partitioned Poland and the other countries wished they had gone along with Russia earlier and allowed safe passage of the red army to invade and crush the NAZI forces. Their Russophobia and indeed Jew phobia, their racism (Jewish peoples were 50/50 contributing to the original creation of the USSR along with Russians), cost eastern Europe millions of lives that could have been prevented.

You are aware that you just sanctioned the revisionist view of operation Barbarossa being a preemptive strike against a vital threat to germany by Stalin by saying that's precisely what the USSR would have done earlier had other countries not been so pesky and independant minded. You also validated Hitler forging the anti communist axis with Eastern European countries against Stalin.

Way to wiggle yourself out of a tight spot and confidently jump with both feet in a dung puddle.

[kanecaston]

You are aware that you just sanctioned the revisionist view of operation Barbarossa being a preemptive strike against a vital threat to germany by Stalin by saying that's precisely what the USSR would have done earlier had other countries not been so pesky and independant minded. You also validated Hitler forging the anti communist axis with Eastern European countries against Stalin.

Way to wiggle yourself out of a tight spot and confidently jump with both feet in a dung puddle.

Stalin knew Germany was going to attack the USSR up to ten years beforehand. It is a matter of historical record that the USSR approached the western allies for support against Hitler well in advance of WW2 to form an anti fascist alliance. That record shows that the western allies turned Stalin down. They could have saved millions upon millions of lives and 6 to 10 million Jews if the western nations including Poland hadn't been so pro NAZI before WW2.

The USSR was not a threat to Germany, but a threat to Hitler's plans of world domination and the extinction of the Jewish and Slavic peoples. See these things are objectively bad so nothing can 'validate' defending them as you have just done.

Are you a NAZI apologist? One of those people who believe Hitler wasn't all that bad and didn't even know of the holocaust or deny the holocaust even happened? Because if you are then just tell me straight up instead of being sly about it and I can just ignore you.

Preempting Hitler would have been a VERY GOOD thing and Stalin wanted to do this and the western nations stopped him. There is no way around this. Poland especially is responsible for all the millions dead of WW2, including the 100,000 polish civilians slaughtered by Ukrainian NAZIs.

After being turned down Stalin decided to try to delay the German attack he knew was coming by signing the Molotov Ribbentrop pact and indeed succeeded in delaying the attack by enough time to get the red army ready for a DEFENSIVE WAR, not a preempting. By the time of operation Barbarossa all of the red army were in deep defensive positions not offensive positions. Stalin had no designs of preempting Hitler after being turned down by the allies and Poland. The division of Poland, which had earlier professed its NAZI inclinations and refused to support the USSR in an anti fascist alliance, was to gain more buffer land for the red armies defensive doctrines of defense in depth and pocket defense.

Hitler did not just suddenly one day decide to attack everyone around him with a surprise declaration of war. His aggression towards other nations was apparent from years before WW2. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were fleeing to surrounding countries, to America (where they got sent back and America refused to allow them in) and countries in the Baltics like Poland (where they were handed over to the Germans) and many went into the USSR. Remember the USSR was cofounded by the Jewish people along with the Russians and that was a natural place for them to flee to. Stalin gave them shelter and refuge and recruited them into his red army as soldiers but especially as officers AND he listened to them tell of what was going on in Germany.

[Cybermat47]

^^^^



That explains why the Red Army was caught completely off-guard and were annihilated by the Whermacht...

[conon394]

Yep real run being a Jew under Stalin

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...895r/?page=all

[SLN445]

Stuck under one Regime or another, its no wonder that the Polish tried to break free.

[Dromikaites]

It is ironic that these nations that suffered so terribly under NAZI Germany were among those countries that resisted the USSRs requests to allow the USSR to preemptively crush Hitler.

Would you be so kind as to explain how would have Stalin crushed Hitler?

Details are extremely important. For instance, please share with us how many Soviet divisions would have had to cross Poland on their way to Germany?

How many Soviet fighters and bombers would be stationed in Poland? How many ground crew would have been needed to service those planes?

How many train cars would have been needed to transport those Soviet troops to the German border and how many train cars would have been necessary to keep supplying those troops as they advanced deep into Germany?

After you answer these questions I will help you understand why the Poles and the Romanians didn't want to allow the Soviet troops to cross their territory say in 1938 when Stalin offered to defend Czechoslovakia.

[ShockBlast]

Are you a NAZI apologist? One of those people who believe Hitler wasn't all that bad and didn't even know of the holocaust or deny the holocaust even happened? Because if you are then just tell me straight up instead of being sly about it and I can just ignore you.

Preempting Hitler would have been a VERY GOOD thing and Stalin wanted to do this and the western nations stopped him. There is no way around this. Poland especially is responsible for all the millions dead of WW2, including the 100,000 polish civilians slaughtered by Ukrainian NAZIs.

Ah lol, ignoring the fact that USSR was arming itself for war long before Germany`s path was clear.World revolution is a messy business.

USSR had like half of the tanks in the world for the love of Zamolxes.

Would you be so kind as to explain how would have Stalin crushed Hitler?

Details are extremely important. For instance, please share with us how many Soviet divisions would have had to cross Poland on their way to Germany?

How many Soviet fighters and bombers would be stationed in Poland? How many ground crew would have been needed to service those planes?

How many train cars would have been needed to transport those Soviet troops to the German border and how many train cars would have been necessary to keep supplying those troops as they advanced deep into Germany?

After you answer these questions I will help you understand why the Poles and the Romanians didn't want to allow the Soviet troops to cross their territory say in 1938 when Stalin offered to defend Czechoslovakia.

I don`t think the Allies would stand by and allow USSR attack Germany.Germany could have very well end up as the ally of the western powers and USSR as the bad guy.

[TWWolfe]

Ah lol, ignoring the fact that USSR was arming itself for war long before Germany`s path was clear.World revolution is a messy business.

USSR had like half of the tanks in the world for the love of Zamolxes.



I don`t think the Allies would stand by and allow USSR attack Germany.Germany could have very well end up as the ally of the western powers and USSR as the bad guy.

In all likelyhood,thats exactly what would have happened. Up until he started invading everyone, Hitler was regarded rater highly by quite a lot of the world, whereas the USSR was an international Pariah. had the USSR actually invaded, France and Great Britain would have probably sent troops in to help fight off the "Red Menace"

[Mayer]

I don't believe in the black-white view on history of either side (left and right)

Stalin and Hitler were both dictators with expansionist goals and supremacist ideals, both were equally ruthless in pursuing it and unmoved at the loss of life involved. Although it was Hitler who invaded the Soviet Union, Stalin had his plans for a invasion of a Europe weakened by capitalist infighting and both agreed on the partition of Poland. Now i'm not blaming them alone, UK and USA had a dark past too and most of the violence and totalism was a result of WW1 which started the process of contempt for human life. Therefore i find it silly when someone claims the annexation of Crimea means the revival of the Soviet Empire or the EU being the successor of Hitler's Europe

About interwar period Poland: Negotiations took place between Poland and Nazi Germany as well as the Soviet Union with mixed results because Poland pursued a policy of equal distance to both. They certainly didn't want to have troops of either of them inside their country because they knew that they would have stayed.

I don`t think the Allies would stand by and allow USSR attack Germany.Germany could have very well end up as the ally of the western powers and USSR as the bad guy.

Depends, France might have been fine with the division of Germany and grabbed the Rhineland, UK would maybe protest and i don't think F.D.R would take a aggressive stance against Stalin, that's out of character.

[ShockBlast]

I don't believe in the black-white view on history of either side (left and right)

Stalin and Hitler were both dictators with expansionist goals and supremacist ideals, both were equally ruthless in pursuing it and unmoved at the loss of life involved. Although it was Hitler who invaded the Soviet Union, Stalin had his plans for a invasion of a Europe weakened by capitalist infighting and both agreed on the partition of Poland. Now i'm not blaming them alone, UK and USA had a dark past too and most of the violence and totalism was a result of WW1 which started the process of contempt for human life. Therefore i find it silly when someone claims the annexation of Crimea means the revival of the Soviet Empire or the EU being the successor of Hitler's Europe

About interwar period Poland: Negotiations took place between Poland and Nazi Germany as well as the Soviet Union with mixed results because Poland pursued a policy of equal distance to both. They certainly didn't want to have troops of either of them inside their country because they knew that they would have stayed.



Depends, France might have been fine with the division of Germany and grabbed the Rhineland, UK would maybe protest and i don't think F.D.R would take a aggressive stance against Stalin, that's out of character.

France and UK declared war for Poland yet they would stay ideally in a Soviet aggression against the Germany? For them to invade Germany they would need to firstly take care of Poland.Let`s pretend no one takes any action, do you think France and UK would let Germany alone?

Don`t forget that in the event of an USSR attack Germany wouldn`t be under international embargo thus the German economy would be in far better shape.Germany is more then capable to fight the USSR to a standstill, factoring in the missing air armada that constantly bombarded Germany, the missing lend lease from US to USSR and the fact that around half of the Luftwaffe would not be fighting the Allied air forces.Germany would beat USSR to a stand still.

Let`s pretend that USSR has the capability to beat Germany, who would be idiot enough to let Germany and the rest of eastern Europe fall to the USSR?Just for Reinland?Ha, I don`t believe that the French are that Germanophobe.If almost all Germany turns red then it`s game over in Europe, Reinland or no Reinland.

Remember Churchill had a special place in his heat for the Soviets, he even contemplating a ceasefire with Germany and an alliance against USSR.

[Sire Brenshar]

Stalin knew Germany was going to attack the USSR up to ten years beforehand. It is a matter of historical record that the USSR approached the western allies for support against Hitler well in advance of WW2 to form an anti fascist alliance. That record shows that the western allies turned Stalin down. They could have saved millions upon millions of lives and 6 to 10 million Jews if the western nations including Poland hadn't been so pro NAZI before WW2.

The USSR was not a threat to Germany, but a threat to Hitler's plans of world domination and the extinction of the Jewish and Slavic peoples. See these things are objectively bad so nothing can 'validate' defending them as you have just done.

Are you a NAZI apologist? One of those people who believe Hitler wasn't all that bad and didn't even know of the holocaust or deny the holocaust even happened? Because if you are then just tell me straight up instead of being sly about it and I can just ignore you.

Preempting Hitler would have been a VERY GOOD thing and Stalin wanted to do this and the western nations stopped him. There is no way around this. Poland especially is responsible for all the millions dead of WW2, including the 100,000 polish civilians slaughtered by Ukrainian NAZIs.

After being turned down Stalin decided to try to delay the German attack he knew was coming by signing the Molotov Ribbentrop pact and indeed succeeded in delaying the attack by enough time to get the red army ready for a DEFENSIVE WAR, not a preempting. By the time of operation Barbarossa all of the red army were in deep defensive positions not offensive positions. Stalin had no designs of preempting Hitler after being turned down by the allies and Poland. The division of Poland, which had earlier professed its NAZI inclinations and refused to support the USSR in an anti fascist alliance, was to gain more buffer land for the red armies defensive doctrines of defense in depth and pocket defense.

Hitler did not just suddenly one day decide to attack everyone around him with a surprise declaration of war. His aggression towards other nations was apparent from years before WW2. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were fleeing to surrounding countries, to America (where they got sent back and America refused to allow them in) and countries in the Baltics like Poland (where they were handed over to the Germans) and many went into the USSR. Remember the USSR was cofounded by the Jewish people along with the Russians and that was a natural place for them to flee to. Stalin gave them shelter and refuge and recruited them into his red army as soldiers but especially as officers AND he listened to them tell of what was going on in Germany.

The only thing in this post I agree with is that both NAZI and USSR are capitalized, as it draws attention to how how similar both those sides were.

Otherwise this is a cancerous post and people should try to avoid spending too much time reading or responding to it.

[Mangalore]

...

Are you a NAZI apologist? One of those people who believe Hitler wasn't all that bad and didn't even know of the holocaust or deny the holocaust even happened? Because if you are then just tell me straight up instead of being sly about it and I can just ignore you.
...

You failed to realize that based on your previous post you are.

[Dromikaites]

I don`t think the Allies would stand by and allow USSR attack Germany.Germany could have very well end up as the ally of the western powers and USSR as the bad guy.

The context kancaston was referring to was this: if Germany invades Czechoslovakia, France and UK attack Germany from the West while Stalin sends 1,000,000 soldiers (that is what Stalin offered) through Poland and Romania, in order to help the Czechoslovaks.

So the Soviet attack on Germany would have been synchronized with the Franco-British one.

The problem with kanecaston is he has no clue what the presence of 1,000,000 Red Army soldiers in Romania and Poland would have meant for the political stability of those countries. Many things can be said about the Soviet leader Brezhnev in 1979 but he was nowhere as homicidal as Stalin was. Yet in 1979 the Soviet commandos killed Hafizullah Amin, the president of Afghanistan. He was the one who had invited them there!

Would Stalin have had any hesitation to liquidate the Polish and the Romanian leaders once the Red Army had taken control of all the strategic places in those countries, under the guise of securing passage for the troops en route to the German border?!

In just 3 days, between August 23rd and August 26th 1944 the much weaker Romanian army eliminated the 2 times stronger and better armed German army from almost everywhere on the territory of the Kingdom of Romania. How was that possible, before the Red Army showed up to help? Simply by holding the key positions.

Surprise wasn't even necessary: the Romanian government offered the Germans the possibility to evacuate their troops unmolested. It was the Germans who attacked on the evening of August 23rd, in an attempt to topple the government, instead of making the much better decision for them to withdraw.

In 1936 Stalin demanded that the Polish and Romanian governments hand them over the control of the railways and of the main roads, bridges, airports, allegedly so the 1,000,000 Red Army soldiers could travel to the German border without a hitch.

The control of those bridges, railroads and roads ensured in 1944 that the German units cannot reinforce each other in Romania, before the Romanians converged on each of them. Have the Red Army control them and the Polish ones in 1936 and then try to explain how the Romanian or Polish troops could have come to the rescue of their governments when Stalin orders a regime change. Especially since the Red Army would be larger and much better equipped than the local armies.