The Warsaw Uprising; What did they actually hope to achieve?

[wudang_clown]

Are you a NAZI apologist? One of those people who believe Hitler wasn't all that bad and didn't even know of the holocaust or deny the holocaust even happened?

No, he's okay.

On the other hand, you are clearly a Soviet apologist. One of those people who believe that psychopath Stalin wasn't all that bad and didn't even order political cleansing within Red Army, to mention just one, and I mean just one of many of his crimes against humanity, or deny the Holodomor even happened.

Seriously, the only thing you've possibly managed to convince people to is that you've been "educated" in some Russian indoctrination camp. Although, when I read you comments and put them in the context of recent events in Ukraine, it's actually possible you're one those poor souls paid off by the GRU to spread anti-European, and especially anti-Polish propaganda over the Internet, hoping to influence public opinion. Well, if it's indeed true, the GRU should consider firing you, because you're doing really poor job.

Now, let's move ourselves away from the steaming pile of crappy propaganda and get back on topic.

For the Poles, a theoretical choice between the Nazis and the Soviets would be a choice between being finished off on the grounds of being non-Aryan on the one hand, and on the other hand on the grounds of being enemies of the revolution. The Poles (especially the Polish Jews) experienced both types of genocide anyway. There's nothing to discuss, really. What if the Poles would decide early to ally themselves with any of the two possibly greatest psychopaths in the history of mankind? Well, the Jews would be killed or repressed anyway, either as Untermenschen or as followers of Judaism and/or as class enemies (businessmen, intelligentsia, burgeoisie etc.). The Poles would either be killed as non-Aryans/enemies of the revolution, or forced into the Volksdeutschen or resettled deep into Syberia, far away from the Lebensraum or far away from a new, Red Poland, where they could make trouble.

I think that indirectly and not necessarily intentionally the uprising had the effect of showing that the Poles don't hesitate to fight any occupant in any circumstances, favourable or not. That stance would make them troublesome and impredictable opponent. Perhaps that's one of the reasons of why Poland didn't become just another Soviet "republic". Personally, I think the uprising was unnecessary and that decision to start it was irresponsible. Those forces could have been used better, and if not, then even the very fact that the fighting wouldn't have taken so many lives (and many many decent people died in the fighting), would have made Poland and the Poles a different country and different society today.

[Verr]

No, he's okay.

On the other hand, you are clearly a Soviet apologist. One of those people who believe that psychopath Stalin wasn't all that bad and didn't even order political cleansing within Red Army, to mention just one, and I mean just one of many of his crimes against humanity, or deny the Holodomor even happened.

Seriously, the only thing you've possibly managed to convince people to is that you've been "educated" in some Russian indoctrination camp. Although, when I read you comments and put them in the context of recent events in Ukraine, it's actually possible you're one those poor souls paid off by the GRU to spread anti-European, and especially anti-Polish propaganda over the Internet, hoping to influence public opinion. Well, if it's indeed true, the GRU should consider firing you, because you're doing really poor job.

Now, let's move ourselves away from the steaming pile of crappy propaganda and get back on topic.

For the Poles, a theoretical choice between the Nazis and the Soviets would be a choice between being finished off on the grounds of being non-Aryan on the one hand, and on the other hand on the grounds of being enemies of the revolution. The Poles (especially the Polish Jews) experienced both types of genocide anyway. There's nothing to discuss, really. What if the Poles would decide early to ally themselves with any of the two possibly greatest psychopaths in the history of mankind? Well, the Jews would be killed or repressed anyway, either as Untermenschen or as followers of Judaism and/or as class enemies (businessmen, intelligentsia, burgeoisie etc.). The Poles would either be killed as non-Aryans/enemies of the revolution, or forced into the Volksdeutschen or resettled deep into Syberia, far away from the Lebensraum or far away from a new, Red Poland, where they could make trouble.

I think that indirectly and not necessarily intentionally the uprising had the effect of showing that the Poles don't hesitate to fight any occupant in any circumstances, favourable or not. That stance would make them troublesome and impredictable opponent. Perhaps that's one of the reasons of why Poland didn't become just another Soviet "republic". Personally, I think the uprising was unnecessary and that decision to start it was irresponsible. Those forces could have been used better, and if not, then even the very fact that the fighting wouldn't have taken so many lives (and many many decent people died in the fighting), would have made Poland and the Poles a different country and different society today.

hey are you from poland too? /irony

[Aawulf]

Did the Poles know at the time that the USSR was responsible for the Katyn Forest Massacre? It has been 30 years or so since I read about it, but as I recall the Germans knew they were being wrongfully accused, the USSR knew they were covering it up and the Roosevelt administration was also in the business of covering up the USSR's guilt to preserve our alliance with the USSR. But did the Poles know? If they did, then surely they would know to not expect the best from the advancing Soviets? If they didn't, then FDR has some more splainin' to do. Just a thought.

[Dromikaites]

Yes, the Poles knew. The Germans made sure everybody knew that, by inviting a commission of forensic experts from neutral countries (Sweden, Switzerland) to examine the Katyn corpses and by widely circulating the findings of the commission.

Actually nobody at the time had any doubts the Soviet Union was a rogue country. What everybody hoped (Poles and Western Allies alike) was the Soviets would show more restraint since they depended on the Western aid.

The problem is the Western Allies considerably weakened their hand in 1942 in Casablanca, when they proclaimed they only accepted an unconditional surrender from Germany.

Though Stalin could never fully trust them, just like they never trusted Stalin, it contributed to convincing the Soviet leadership that they can do pretty much whatever they want in Central and Eastern Europe because the West would never strike a deal with Germany and go together after the Soviet Union.

The situation was no different than Iraq in 1990, when Saddam was so convinced that the West would need him to fight Iran that he could get away with everything.

Just like Saddam who was surprised to see the West doesn't allow him to keep Kuweit, Stalin was genuinely surprised to see the West was reuniting and rearming that part of Germany under Western control.

But in 1944 he knew he can crush the Poles with impunity while the Poles assumed he won't dare out of fear the Western Allies would somehow intervene.

[wudang_clown]

hey are you from poland too? /irony

Yeah, and apparently that makes me more biased than some Stalinist poster.

Oh, but thanks for your invaluable input.

If they did, then surely they would know to not expect the best from the advancing Soviets?

Polish Government in Exlie had been officially looking for those POW's since 1941. Stalin had been avoiding straight answers suggesting at some point that it's possible the POW's went to Manchuria and that he doesn't know what happened to them. So, it was very fishy for the Poles long before the Germans discovered mass graves. After that, it was apparent that the Allies absolutely don't want to talk about the massacre. Churchill even said to Sikorski (Polish Prime Minister at that time) that it is better not to talk about it at all.