DoM - The Poll

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Yes.
Some others however were not rush jobs (which DoM most definetly is not, and my complaint is the direct opposite....) but were simply the same old game with a few new missions. Which comes as a disappointment since people expect more. Especially when it's something that's been in the works for a long time.

And that's my point about underwhelming.
TNS was a great mod, but if DoM is of the same quality, then will it really be a good mod?
After all, we already have TNS and if DoM is essentially the same thing but with buildings and units changed a bit, a few new factions tacked on and a bigger map, will it really be all that awesome?
Will new fans of the mods discard TNS because DoM is so much better? Or will they just as likely pick TNS over DoM if they want a RTW mod that deals with Tolkiens world?

Whatever you say, DoM is still going to be measured up against TNS. And if it "merely" as good as TNS, then it will be a big disappointment.

And from did you draw the conclusion that it will be the same as TNS when everything has showed it being a completely different beast?

Nope, and I'm not criticizing them for doing it.
I'm criticizing the poll in this thread and saying that there is a big risk that the mod will be underwhelming, because people have set their hopes too high.

Some of us like to be optimistic. And don't go whining about how long it takes to finish.

TNS is the best RTW mod that I've played, and I'm still playing it.
But will DoM really be able to blow it out of the water?
After all, they still have the same limitations in the game engine to work with, it's still a RTW mod, there's only so much that they can do.

And the dev team definitely is more experienced with the engine by now. I wouldn't be surprised if they know some things that they didn't back when they were making TNS.

Nothing wrong with voicing your opinion.
What is wrong however is doing one thing and then saying that you would never do such a thing.

Your first post in this thread is this:
"Why did you put the 3 last options in? Everyone knows there can only be 2 answers. And those are the first two."
And then, in the post criticizing me you say:
"I do not think that much about when the mod will be released, and how awesome it is going to be. This of course prevents me from being so excited about it that I will be let down."
See the problem?

And people say I don't have a sense of humour.

I will graze the field but I will be aware that it's just grass on a field and won't be talking about the wonderful rainbow-colored sugared grass that might be on the very same field tomorrow.

I have no fear but no high hopes either.
Cynicism it's called.

You tend to get that after a while.

And who has been talking about that? Is optimism so offensive to you?

Feature-creep I do believe it's called....

They planned 9 factions and then changed it to 18, which takes more time and more work.
Who knows, maybe they'll think they missed a couple of factions and it will go up to 22 and the release gets pushed back even further.

I don't think BI can have that many factions.

I suspect that is what has been happening all along, instead of releasing the mod that was planned when they first started working on it, they instead started expanding on the project, which added more work that needed to be done and pushed back the release.
The problem with thinking like that, especially in such a huge and a rich world as Tolkien's, is that if you start doing that, then where do you stop?

Why don't you see how easy it is to make a mod as big as DoM with 4 active team members and some outsourced/temporary support?

And people might like shiny units more than actual substance, but what they most definetly like more is substance that is there for them to play, rather than substance that is being talked about by the mods and that they are only being shown small snippets of.

Guess what? Substance takes time to make.

[Jagmodo]

Nechrum, you have every right to express things from your perspective and I appreciate it. Your opinion is the reflection of your knowledge and experience on the matter. However, I have different opinion that is based on mine. We have all right to disagree.

So, let’s leave my opinion on the side for the moment... Let’s take a look at the facts. Have you seen and read "DoM Gameplay Mechanics and Features Overview" thread? This thread obviously claims many features unseen in any RTW mod to this day. Pretty impressive, right? That’s quite far from your claim that DoM could be:

...essentially the same thing but with buildings and units changed a bit, a few new factions tacked on and a bigger map...

That’s enough for me, among other things, to keep my opinion very high of this mod. If that makes me a sheep, I’m fine with that.

Well, if I take your approach; developers could outright lie about features and they could never release the mod. However, we can deduce what is the most likely outcome. So, IMHO very respectable modders, and at that ex-Hexagon Council Administrator, simply would not do such thing. Their actions so far vouch in their favor.

I understand you can be disappointed about the time DoM took to be finished. However, it will only make it better. And the day will come...

[Nehcrum]

Sure, Nehcrum. You can criticize whatever you want. And I could criticize you for failing to provide me with hours of free entertainment exactly when I want it and no later.

See how silly that sounds?

Only if I actually tried or promised to provide you with free entertainment.

So in your opinion, all criticism is invalid as long as the target for the criticism doesn't charge anything for you to access/play it?


Note, I've never actually criticized the mod for being bad, I actually think it will be good.
I just don't think it will be able to live up to the high expectations for it.

See Jagmodo's posts just above this one for an example of those high expectations.
"Have you seen and read "DoM Gameplay Mechanics and Features Overview" thread? This thread obviously claims many features unseen in any RTW mod to this day"

[Nehcrum]

[QUOTE=Feanaro Curufinwe;13904612]And from did you draw the conclusion that it will be the same as TNS when everything has showed it being a completely different beast?
Depends on the definitions of "same" and "completely different". Whatever the devs say or do, at the end of the day it's still a RTW mod. There is only so much you can do with that.

Some of us like to be optimistic. And don't go whining about how long it takes to finish.

I'll whine if I want to, just as you can whine at me for whining about it.
And then I can whine at you for whining at me about whining about the game.
And a few more iterations of that and we are right at this post.

If you like to be optimistic, that's fine.
But show me the courtesy of letting me not be one.

And the dev team definitely is more experienced with the engine by now. I wouldn't be surprised if they know some things that they didn't back when they were making TNS.

Wouldn't surprise me either, but really, how much was it that they didn't know back when they did TNS?
It's not like RTW was a new game when they did that mod and it most likely wasn't their first mod either.

You get better with experience, but there is still only so much you can do with what you have.

And people say I don't have a sense of humour.

The first one was a joke.
The second one where you claimed you had never hyped the game wasn't.

The first post was perfectly fine on it's own. But when you start bashing me, I'll bash back.

And who has been talking about that? Is optimism so offensive to you?

No, optimism isn't offensive, but people attacking me and my opinions is something I find offensive.
"If you expect it to suck, why are you even here?"

I don't think BI can have that many factions.

It was an example.

Why don't you see how easy it is to make a mod as big as DoM with 4 active team members and some outsourced/temporary support?

Why don't you see how easy it is to run a touchdown in NFL before you say anything about a game other than "they played good"?
It doesn't work like that, it's a useless argument, you have the right to criticize something even without being able to do it better yourself.

Guess what? Substance takes time to make.

Sure, but I don't have infinite patience. I get bored by waiting.
And I've waited for four years or so....

The fact that I'm still here waiting and haven't gone away like so many others shows that I still have hope for this mod.

[Nehcrum]

Nechrum, you have every right to express things from your perspective and I appreciate it. Your opinion is the reflection of your knowledge and experience on the matter. However, I have different opinion that is based on mine. We have all right to disagree.

Thank you.
Someone that is civil and actually allows me to have my opinions without needing to attack me or tell me to get out of here because of it.

So, let’s leave my opinion on the side for the moment... Let’s take a look at the facts. Have you seen and read "DoM Gameplay Mechanics and Features Overview" thread? This thread obviously claims many features unseen in any RTW mod to this day. Pretty impressive, right? That’s quite far from your claim that DoM could be:



That’s enough for me, among other things, to keep my opinion very high of this mod. If that makes me a sheep, I’m fine with that.

The irony is that my point about it probably being underwhelming is because I have very high opinions of this mod, and that I think the mod will have problems living up to them.
I don't think it will be a bad mod, it's just that it has some mighty big shoes to fill.

Well, if I take your approach; developers could outright lie about features and they could never release the mod. However, we can deduce what is the most likely outcome. So, IMHO very respectable modders, and at that ex-Hexagon Council Administrator, simply would not do such thing. Their actions so far vouch in their favor.

I understand you can be disappointed about the time DoM took to be finished. However, it will only make it better. And the day will come...

Unfortunately it doesn't really work like that in the PC games industry.
Things age, and what was good a few years back is no longer good.
Doom when it came out was incredibly awesome. If Doom came out today with the same graphics and gameplay, it would be considered complete and utter crap.

One is left with the question if all this work on a mod for RTW, even if it is the best mod ever made for RTW, will really be able to stand up to even a mediocre mod for a newer TW game....

[CountMRVHS]

As I said, you can criticize. Go ahead. But when your main complaints seem to be

A) The mod isn't out now, and
B) It might possibly not be as good as I expect

how seriously do you expect anyone to take this? Especially given that you have no grounds for any expectations other than the flawed analogy with professionally produced computer games.

It's your life, man. Carry on. You criticize, and we can criticize your criticism.

[Nehcrum]

As I said, you can criticize. Go ahead. But when your main complaints seem to be

A) The mod isn't out now, and
B) It might possibly not be as good as I expect

how seriously do you expect anyone to take this? Especially given that you have no grounds for any expectations other than the flawed analogy with professionally produced computer games.

It's your life, man. Carry on. You criticize, and we can criticize your criticism.

Yep, and we can all learn something from this thread.

Namely, if you don't want to hear other peoples opinons about something, you shouldn't start a poll about it.

[CountMRVHS]

This back-and-forth isn't about not wanting to hear other people's opinions. I think it's a reaction to negativity that is based only on hypotheticals.

If you feel DoM will fail to live up to TNS, it would certainly be more productive to share your concerns in a specific, constructive way, rather than making vague statements in this thread - statements that betray a lack of familiarity with the current state of development, as Jagmodo's post pointed out.

[webba84]

As someone who was really hoping to kinda kill this conversation before it got nasty Id just like to suggest to everyone that when exchanging contrary opinions how you say things is as important as what you say. The most logically sound argument in the world isn't going to convince anyone if you insult them with every second word of it.

And Nehcrum, I would appreciate it if you refrain from citing my jokes as evidence of your point of view, especially given you neither know me or what my knowledge of this mod may be. As much for your good as mine, I promise.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Honestly, this thread should have been called "DoM- Whine and Cheese".

[Nehcrum]

Honestly, this thread should have been called "DoM- Whine and Cheese".

Considering that I'm the only one "whining", a better name for it would've been "DoM -Praise and Cheer".

[Basileos Predator]

If you're the only one whining, you should understand something's wrong with your judgement and stop complaining about this great mod.

[Thangaror]

Indeed, in these fora I am certainly acquainted to conversation of a higher quality...

[Nehcrum]

If you're the only one whining, you should understand something's wrong with your judgement and stop complaining about this great mod.

The problem is that no one here seems to have grasped what my criticism is about.
And it's nice that you think it's a great mod, because I assume you have played it before making a judgement about wether it is great or not, yes?

Your argument pretty much sums it up all nicely, you are talking about how great something is, when all you have seen from it are a few screenshots.

All of this is based on a brilliant prequel and then talk from the devs about various great ideas and things.
But until it actually comes out and we can play it, we can't really say if it will be great or not.

And that is my point. I think it will underwhelm, simply due to the fact that the expectations are set so high that it won't be able to live up to it, even if it is a great mod on it's own.
Because of it's prequel, it isn't competing with other mods, it's competing with one of the best mods out there, and to not disappoint it must improve considerably upon somethign that is one of the greatest mods while still using the same basic engine.

It is a problem that other games have had, Bioshock, Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, Fallout 3 etc. The first game was awesome, one of the best for it's time and genre, but the sequel must be better. It's quite simply very hard to improve on something that is already near perfection.
For these games, they can do that by using more powerful engines, better graphics etc. But for a mod, those options are limited.

[Nehcrum]

Oh, and just for fun, managed to find this old gem of mine....


http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...89#post7938889

So like not to bug you guys about it, I know a good mod is worth the wait, but is there like a general time frame of when we might expect this to be ready by? As in will this be a few months thing or will we likely be looking at closer to a year or more?

Less than a year. If all goes according to plan.

Awesome! Tomorrow is less than a year!

*begins holding breath*

If you try to hold your breath until it comes out, I'm pretty sure we're gonna read about you in the newspaper.

Either for a new record in holding your breath, or as a funny death notice.

Note that this was posted back in 2010.....

[webba84]

The problem is that no one here seems to have grasped what my criticism is about.
And it's nice that you think it's a great mod, because I assume you have played it before making a judgement about wether it is great or not, yes?

Your argument pretty much sums it up all nicely, you are talking about how great something is, when all you have seen from it are a few screenshots.

All of this is based on a brilliant prequel and then talk from the devs about various great ideas and things.
But until it actually comes out and we can play it, we can't really say if it will be great or not.

I dont think people misunderstand your meaning, they just dislike the pessimistic attitude and the blunt expression of it which could, if someone was in a bad mood, be misconstrued as unhelpful criticism of the people working on the mod. I dont think you intend any criticism of the dev team, nor do I think your argument is logically flawed in any way. It is perfectly as valid an opinion as any other.

What I do think you are wrong about (I could say the same to almost anyone who posted in this thread) is the degree of confidence you have in your own opinion. You criticise others for having an opinion based on very little information yet your own opinion is formed from that same ignorance. If I was going to criticise anyone, and I generally try not to, it would be anyone who has formed a certainty of opinion without at least knowing more than the dev team has revealed so far.

Given the completely subjective nature of this poll I hoped people would take it as a lighthearted way to offer some encouragement to the dev team, hence my early comment. Since it was misconstrued, however, I feel partially responsible for the subsequent nastiness, none of it really deserved on either side, so I hope this helps to put that to rest.

When the mod is released then we can all have a discussion about how good it is and nasty or not, we will at least know what we are talking about.

[CountMRVHS]

Oh, and just for fun, managed to find this old gem of mine....

That is fun.

Since that was first posted, I have:

-moved
-built a house
-moved again
-watched my wife give birth to our first child*
-watched my wife give birth to our second child*
-watched my wife give birth to our third child*
-raised our triplets (they're turning 3 in a month)

*all on the same day, no less!

OK, Nehcrum, now you go.

[webba84]

Thats quite an impressive sized family CountMRVHS, especially these days. Congratulations!

[CountMRVHS]

Thanks, webba. That post was perhaps a bit unclear - we "only" have the 3 kids.

[webba84]

Well, 3 or 6, its all very impressive. Pretty sure 1 would be about 1 too many for me