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Thread: [Research] Collection

  1. #21
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default [Research] Roman Armies

    Reserved for Imperial Armies
    Last edited by Hetairos; June 17, 2014 at 05:07 PM.

  2. #22
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    Ok guys, before you do research take a look at the OP. I want you to be able to provide similar information. You must focus on:

    • What: Which army is it? (e.g. Early Mid-Republican Army, Late Mid-Republican Army, Centuriate Reforms, Marian Reforms)
    • When: What time frame do we speak about (e.g. Punic War and after 218 - 160 BC or Marian Reforms 107 BC)

    Think about us wanting to make not only two to three major reforms, but keep the player interested and make the game more immersive and diverse. So also small reforms count! If you feel like having found a reform use it. Small reforms can be the change of equipment, the change of tactics or the change of structure. For example the republican army had a lot of reforms that went on step by step. It was not like one big one. First they changed structure, than they changed tactics and finally their equipment several times. Furthermore focus on giving the unit db editors the information about the following necessary aspects:

    • Equipment (what textures do we need)
    • Ethnics, Regions (from which tribes, regions where the units recruited, so we can find out the right names e.g. Roman Hoplites, Allied Hoplites, Samnite Hoplites)
    • Social Class (which class of society did the belong to? Citizens, if yes what class, rich or poor? Nobles? Serfs? Freedmen? Mercenaries?)
    • Number of Men, Number of Ranks, Number of the certain tactical units (e.g. 120 men, three ranks deep, 40 per rank, 8 per cantubria or however it was called lol)
    • Population (if you can find information about how many of them were existent e.g. 4'000 hoplites we can make a historic accurate unit cap in the database)
    • Tactics (always useful to know for concept work)
    • Composition of armies (so we know how to set recruitment in the db)

    Ok, basically you see in my post already, what I talk about. Try to work like this, because if you post things more like a brainstorm I can not make a lot use of it since I must than go over it, try to give it a clean structure and search the missing information myself. Also pure lists of rosters only are good, but give little information around that roster and we really need to know more in detail about date, reform, equipment, ethnics, population, social class, number of tactical units, composition of armies and more. We do want to create some kind of population system bound to recruiting, we do want to make historical units and we want to keep things very dynamic, interesting concerning reforms and the growth and evolution of our army during the campaign.

    Also better list more units than less. Since we always can cut things out later, but hardly add new things without new research.

    Use this thread to post pictures as well, thats the only thing I didn't do for the post above since its not in our timeframe. I thought though that it is important to have this information ready so we can easier understand the next upcoming reforms.

    Cheers
    Alec
    Last edited by Hetairos; June 17, 2014 at 05:14 PM.

  3. #23
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    I will be posting research here, so am doing Mid, Post, and Imperial.





















































  4. #24
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    Very good, this is also the time for a quick reminder:

    Our campaign will be lasting exactly for 300 years (from the second punic war 217 BC to AD 117 the end of the classical imperial army). Depending on turns per year sub-modification, but this will be 3'600 turns if we use my turns per year framework (12). ^^ No wonder I look for more than 2-3 major reforms, but for constant small steps of evolution during those 3'600 turns.

  5. #25
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    Ok, I shall be considering all this when I deliver the research mate





















































  6. #26

  7. #27
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Overhaul

    Deleted post.
    Last edited by The Wandering Storyteller; June 18, 2014 at 09:13 AM.





















































  8. #28
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    Mid Republican Army(218 bc):



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12HXnYNA6Cg

    Introduction:

    The core of the Roman army during 218 bc was the Legion, consider it to the form of Napoleon who adopted this ‘ legion style’ and created his corps system. They were like a fully functioning army that were capable of setting up camps, able to walk 25 miles a day, and were called to defend the Empire at this time. By the second Punic war, the total number of legions that the Romans had were about 20. The legions were the main primary force that set aside the Macedonians or the Carthaginians, as these men were the basic primary unit fighting and trained for close combat. It was a combination of hand hurled pilums and swords that set aside the spear/longer spear and shield. The republican army of this time has oval to square off oval shields. Also note that the Roarii have been long gone by this time period. Inaccurate and does not really need to be in the game when considering the 218 time scale. Roarii are thoroughly gone by this time.

    The army normally would be numbered into about four urban legions under the command of two counsels. However, they were covered from I to IV. During the 2nd Punic war it is also estimated that the Roman army had 700,000 infantry as back at the eve of the war, and despite Phrryus’s and Hannibal’s attempts to destroy the Roman armies, the Romans had plenty of man power to fuel them during the war. No matter what they could have done, there would have been a mountable force ready to replace the lost legions. Legions would have also increased in this manner as they fought against the Carthaginians.

    Formation:



    Numbers:

    Also note that the basic structure of the Manipular army was the three triple axes. Hastati at front, princpie in the middle, and tiriaii at the back. Each force would break the line one at a time, and if they didn't, they had back up to depend on. This image best describes it:



    Each legion had about six tribunes that would then split themselves into pairs that would divide time in commanding the legions for about two months. The legion numbered about 4,200 men or around 4,500 men depending on the legion. It was later divided into ten cohorts consisting of about 420 men. The Roman Cohorts of course, have their origins quite mysterious, as evidence claims they either formed in the 1st century Bc, or that the Elder scipos that introduced it. Never the less it has been now known that the cohort consisted of three maniples consisting the ordinies/Hastati/Principles. Suggestion of Cohorts also come in Cohors Romnas( Livy. 25.39.1;Front 2.6.2). There is also evidence to provide that the maniple system wasn’t actually discontinued by the Marian reforms, it in fact existed well into the Imperial period, as Cinius, mentions in his book six of the de re milliatri 1 in the 1st century bc that the Roman army had 60 maniples and 30 centuries.




    Republican legions also were divided into velities, principes, hastati consisting of about 1200 men each. The triarii consisted of 600 men and the equites of about 300 men. The hastati were the front line, the principe at the middle and the tirarii at the very back. They were supported by velities and equities, mainly on the flanks and in-between. Most typical was a line of principes armed with pila and gladii, and defended by the scuti. The hastati could be armed the same way, or with the hasta and parma. The velites bore the hasta velitaris and depended on running to get them away after a throw, which is why only the young were chosen for that job. The cavalry, organized in 10 turmae (squadrons) of 30 horse each, under a master of horse (magister equitatum), who took orders from the legion commander. Cavalry was used for scouting, skirmishing and various sorts of clean-up — they also constituted another reserve that could be thrown into the battle.

    The basic unit of the army was the company-sized centuria of 60 men commanded by a centurion. He had under him two junior officers, the optiones, each of whom had a standard-bearer, or vexillarius. Presumably he used the two officers to form two squads. In addition, a squad of 20 velites was attached to the century, probably instructed ad hoc by the centurion. The basic unit of the army was the company-sized centuria of 60 men commanded by a centurion. He had under him two junior officers, the optiones, each of whom had a standard-bearer, or vexillarius. Presumably he used the two officers to form two squads. In addition, a squad of 20 velites was attached to the century, probably instructed ad hoc by the centurion.

    The Maniple:
    Each cohort consisted of one maniple of trarii numbering about 60 men, one of principes, consisting of 120 men, one of hastati consisting of 120 men plus 120 velties.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The Century:

    To be updated.


    The main units:

    Hastati: These troops were the main fodder or staple unit for the Roman army during this time. They are easily cheap to recruit, and are ready with sword and pilum in their hands. Like many other Roman units, many of them would have first thrown their two pilums to create devastating impact on their enemy. They would fire, instantly charge and shout war cries as they attacked their enemies. The hastate of course younger and drawn from the younger branch of Roman society. They would have also been less heavily armoured than the other two ordines( Principe and triaii). A recent suggestion by the historian Rawson suggested that by the early 3rd century only the hastate were of the first line were armed with throwing spears, while the two back lines were armed with longer spears, known as hastae velitares. This is confirmed by the use of Dionyisis of Harlicarnuss who notes this in the battle of Beneventum.


    In another source Polybius quotes the amount of troops there would have been, and that was around 1,200 hastati in a legion. But also however, according to Livy, the Roman General Flaminius had around 2000 hastati in his legions in 197; rather than the normal 120, which was then about 200 hastati. If the hastati troops were unable to gain victory, they would withdraw from the gaps in the maniple and reform behind the traiiri. These units were swordsmen let us not forget this. While being poorer, their equipment would have been either light armour, chest armour, shield, or a short tunic with a grand helmet.

    Osprey images removed due to copyright issues - Maximinus Thrax


    The Senate at this time this supplied these soldiers with short stabbing sword, gladius, and distinctive squared shields. This was to be typically equipped with these, and several soft iron tipped pilas. The hastati’s armour was complete consisting of defensive armour. Their shields would have been consisting the legionary classic shield/scutum. A simple bronze helemet(galea), a bronze breastplate or cuirass, and leg greaves may have been an alternate option. Even at the highest scale of wealth, they may have afford better protection offered by chain breast mail, but it was rare and unlikely for this class.









    Weapons consist of classic legionary gear, pilum and gladius. The hastati and principes carried the oval scutum, the famous ‘Iberian sword’ (gladius Hispaniensis) and two pila (one heavy and one light). Helmets are adorned with purple and black feather plumes, ranging up to 18 inches in height, it could have also been possible for them to have had different coloured plumes if needed be or different coloured armour. They were able to increase their apparent physical size and possibly appear more intimidating to the enemy with the help of this armour. However their effectiveness in battle came as an effective raiding force giving a strong leading edge to their cohort but also as an standalone missile troops which the Romans would have used when their principes or trarii were fighting the enemy.

    These troops were also the first in line, or the first battle line. Fighting in a quincunx formation they were supported by light troops or veles or equities. The enemy would have first been fighting these troops, and then they would be dealing with the more hardened veteran soldiers being the principes. After the Marian reforms of 107 bc however, these units were done with. Another source from Adrain Goldsworthy quotes: Each hastatus also carried two pila, heavy javelins that, "contrary to deeply entrenched myth" (Goldsworthy), did not bend on impact to make any struck shield useless or prevent the weapon from being thrown back. The hastati had been increased in number to 1,200 per legion, and formed 10 maniples of 120 men each. Leves had been replaced with velites, who had a similar role but were now also attached to principes and triarii.

    Princpie:

    The Princpie: Consider these units as an upgraded version of the cheap hastati units. Basically they were the elite of the Republican legions of the time, ready and prime in their careers, they constituted the wealthier class of the citizen solider. Therefore being the best equipped, and a more professional force that would later soon form an iron discipline in the Legion reforms. They were equipped quite similarly towards the Hastati. Aside from using scaled armour or chain, or rather than simple bronze breastplates, both weaponry and armour was the same. The obligation of the princpies were to win the battle, they would act in relief of the Hastati, and would then carry out the fight in earnest, if they could not break, they would withdraw and reform while the triaii would try to break the line. The tactic basically being wearing down the enemy units with your fodder units, then hitting them with your best men in the middle of the fight. Sometimes these roles would have been reversed if the legions were running out of hastate, as shown in 181 bc, when General Lucius Ameleius placed the princpes in the first line and the hastati in the second. The princpies still also carried the hasta longa in the phrryic wars.









    Tiraii:

    Tiraii: These were the toughest, most experienced, and older men that had fought more than many battles perhaps in their life time. The triarii consisted of 600 men. And since being the most wealthy, they would have been able to sufficiently provide themselves with the mail cuircass. These men were like the Old Guard of Napoleon’s army, they were to be kept in reserve and only used in critical situations depending on the circumstance in the battlefield. Livy mentions that when the Romans were attacking the enemy, the Roman General Cato had sent the principes and the hastati to engage them.



    The triarii however, would either sit or kneel, beneath their standards, with their left leg bent forward, and their shields leaning against their shoulders. If formed in quincuix formation, there would be gaps left in the last line. Livy( 8.8.12) describes an manovure where the trarri would rise from the kneeling position, extend the frontage of each manciple as to close the gaps in each line and finally charge from the enemy. They carried a single fighting spear as stated by Polybius, rather than a pair of pilla, however that leads to some debate, it is likely they would have covered a mix of swords and spears, being that they were the wealthiest.

    Most likely that they would have been more influenced by Greek inspired swords, and an interesting proposition would be to counter is that by the time of the Manipular army, the pilum and the gladius were standard across all units, Tirarii, Princpie, and Hastati. By then all tactics of the Phalanx had been removed thoroughly from the tirarii. The triarri would have had access to a full equipage of arms and armour that the Roman republic would not have issued to most sword based infantry in the Roman army of this. Helmets with coloured crests, face protectors, breastplates or chain mail if the solider was able to afford it. Rectangular oval shields would have been avaible, scutum, (an oblong wrap-around of hide on a wood frame, edged with metal, with the insignia of the legion painted on it).





    As the 2nd century progressed, the Tirarri replaced their hastae for pila. During the third Macedonian war, it is estimated that the numbers of the Tirriai increase to 6000 or 6500. The way these trarri were chosen was between an available 80 centuries of wealthy citizens. 40 young men consisting of age 17-45 and 40-45 and men older. The wealthy citizens could afford the full branch of arms and armour of what their officers they would need. The wealthy citizens could go into any branch of the legion, generally though veterans were preferred after the military reforms of the 4th century bc, where the Samnite Wars resulted in disastrous effects for the Romans which caused them to have more veterans in their ranks. The rest were filled out from the young 40 centuries and the older 40 were kept for emergencies would have occurred frequently and they were roughly equivalent to the United States Army reserve.

    Also special credit goes to Damoceles, an excellent historian, and an great friend who's been helping me out, without his links to the sources in the links below, and due to his great knowledge of the Roman army, he's from those historians on TWC that rarely appear, but I am glad to have got hold of him! Thank you very much Damocels for all your help, really accepirate and it you opened my eyes to the Roman army to a whole new level.



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Equiqment: To be updated.

    Ethincs:

    Class:


    Sources:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    https://archive.org/stream/RomanArmy...-army_djvu.txt
    http://www.casematepublishing.com/dl...49064-CH01.pdf
    http://worldtracker.org/media/librar...0-104%20BC.pdf
    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=N...public&f=false
    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=C...public&f=false
    http://worldtracker.org/media/librar...0-104%20BC.pdf
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/29424069/Barbarians
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/49283018/Roman-Republic
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/49282701/Roman-Empire
    http://worldtracker.org/media/librar...0-104%20BC.pdf
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/29392009/A...-Imperial-Rome
    https://archive.org/stream/RomanArmy...-army_djvu.txt
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/49282618/Ancient-Rome
    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=N...public&f=false
    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=C...public&f=false

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=N...public&f=false

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/29392009/A...-Imperial-Rome

    http://www.uam.es/proyectosinv/equus...man%20Army.pdf

    http://www.blackwellreference.com/su...uscode=202#ss6

    http://www.blackwellreference.com/su...78140512153812

    http://www.blackwellreference.com/su...78140512153813

    http://www.ospreypublishing.com/stor..._9781846033445

    http://www.casematepublishing.com/dl...49064-CH01.pdf

    http://worldtracker.org/media/librar...0-104%20BC.pdf

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=N...public&f=false


    http://worldtracker.org/media/librar...0-104%20BC.pdf

    http://warfareancienthistory.blogspo...n-triarii.html

    http://www.unrv.com/military/legion-gear-tactic.php

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...Roman_Republic

    Last edited by Maximinus Thrax; October 10, 2014 at 02:06 AM.





















































  9. #29
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    BTW, just to add a layer of unpleasant complexity, We have to think about the:

    • Roman roster
    • Reformed rosters (its evolution through reforms through technological, tactical and equipment improvements, but also even more complex through conquest and copying enemy tactics and warfare)
    • Expansion rosters; to be adjusted to reforms as well (I don't want Roma to be able to recruit regular legionaries in Gallia, especially not in the early phase, later we will have the historical legions and auxilia which will solve the problem for Roma at least)
    • Mercenary rosters (we must define when, how and for how long certain mercenaries are available)*
    • Civil War roster (which I believe that we will remove the civil war anyways since its a complete non-sense)
    • Regional Rebel rosters (which previous factions lived in the region where the rebellion takes place, what would their units be most likely?)
    • Generals Roster

    Here, in theory, it might sound easy, but when it comes to implementation it's a tricky concept. So once we have the basic Roman roster and Reformed rosters we must double check expansion, mercenary and regional rebel rosters.

    *Theoretically there are two types of mercenaries: 1.) Local mercenaries which are available to everyone in the region and 2.) Allied mercenaries that are available for recruitment through diplomatic and military alliances. The local mercenaries are easy, they are local and available at any time (Rome II vanilla mercenary system). The allied mercenaries are more complex since they might change over the course of time and are also part of the reforms (part of regular recruitment and reforms, maybe even bound to scripts or the tech three. This will be also the section where we can make certain mercenaries available for certain factions only. e.g. Etruscan, Samnite and South Italian mercenaries for Carthage only, while Rome does recruit them into allied legions using the Roman style of warfare.
    Last edited by Hetairos; June 20, 2014 at 05:49 PM.

  10. #30
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    PS: Alongside the land rosters, we need to conduct a research each specifically designed for the:

    • Naval roster
    • Garrison roster
    • Siege Engine roster
    Last edited by Hetairos; June 20, 2014 at 07:05 AM.

  11. #31
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    Finished the Early and Mid-Republican Rosters, now sitting on the Marian Reforms.

    (of course later we have to do the regular AoR mercenaries, the civil war, the rebellion, the siege, the naval and the garrison rosters. But once we have the Marian (Late Republic), Early Imperial and Late Imperial roster, we will be able to do the rest easily and create those special rosters.)

  12. #32
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    Marian research is coming. And early imperial as well.





















































  13. #33
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    Nice, job, I am particularly interested when, how and with what the velites and equites where replaced.

  14. #34
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    Sure give me some time and in an couple of days I shall be posting it. I will also update my unfinished stuff in the meanwhile.





















































  15. #35
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    btw, Hloerics research:

    Note: This is a preliminary faction roster for the Romani, it IS subject to change based on any further research and not final. This roster does not include the Auxiliaries but will in future. it will eventually have unit history and ingame shots of the units, if anyone has any input please feel free to post

    Faction - Romani

    Polybian Period

    Republic Romani
    Velites - Javelin Skirmishers
    Hastati - Swordmen
    Principes - Swordmen
    Triarii - Spearmen
    Rorarii - Light Spearmen
    Polybian Socii
    Socii Extraordinarii Pedites - Elite Polybian Scouts
    Socii Extraordinarii Equites - Consular Body Guard
    Socii Velites - Javelin Skirmishers
    Socii Hastati - Swordmen
    Socii Triarii - Spearmen
    Socii Equites - Light Cavalry
    Socii Campanii Equites - Heavy Spear Cavalry
    Italic Mercenaries
    Apulian Extradordinarii - Elite Swordmen
    Legio Linteati - Elite Spearmen/Swordmen
    Etrurian Hoplites - hoplites
    Samnite Infantry - Spearmen
    Italic Skirmishers - Light Scout Infantry
    Pedites Italiotae - Late Italic Infantry
    Italic Cavalry - Light Cavalry
    Mistophoroi Tarentinoi - Tarentine Elite Cavalry
    Mamertine - Elite Spear/Javelinmen

    Marian Reforms
    Antesignani - Late Elite Foot Scouts
    Cohors Legionaris - Legionary Cohort
    Cohors Prima - First Cohort
    Cohors Aquilam - Eagle Cohort
    Cohors Evocatii - Evocati Cohort
    Cohors Praetorianis - Elite Heavy Infantry
    Equites Alares - Legionary Cavalry
    Equites Praetorianis - Praetorian Cavalry
    Cohors Vigiles - Settlement Defence Unit and a unit to sally forth with
    Cohors Urbana - Urban Cohort
    Arcanii - Stealth Unit
    Germani Corporis Custodes - Elite Germanic Body Guard
    Equites Singulares - Early General Body Guard

    Augustan Period
    Equites Singulares Augusti - General Body Guard
    Specific Legions
    Hey guys, after trawling as many references as I can before I loose love for the Romani I have finally decided the general look of each Legion and location. I have tried to link the armour type to the legions for what part of the world they served in, their recruitment eg augustan legions (newly recruited) would be segmentata because armour was supplied by the state. the type of enemy the legion mostly fought and would of adapted to would have changed armour such as scaled, squamata and other types that have been proven were used by the romans
    The deeper variation comes with older units and battle worn legions. I say this as the romans although uniform wernt completely identical. men after battle either stole armour from enemies.
    So lets say a legion kitted with lorica hamate fought in Britannia, after the many countless battles a roman soldier may of come across a chainmail better than his own and would use that armour, some legions may of got away with it some may not it was down to how strict the commander was.
    This means for the game that say in a battle a lorica hamate legion from gaul may have a few gallic chainmail instead of the hamate, but still with the roman coolus ect. I hope you get the picture
    Also Legions named Gemina were called that due to it actually be a legion merged with another, so this mean that possibly ingame however I implement it in the variantmeshdefinition a gemina legion may be wearing lorica segmentata and lorica hamate and there may be 2 different shield patterns to depict that the gemina legion is 2 legions merged
    Legio I Germanica
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - CISALPINA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata

    Legio II Augusta
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - BRITANNIA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata

    Legio III Augusta
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - AFRICA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata

    Legio III Gallicia
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - SYRIA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Squamata

    Legio III Cyrenacia
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - NABATAEA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Squamata

    Legio IV Sythica
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - GALATIA ET CAPPADOCIA
    Primary Armour - Eastern Scale

    Legio IV Macedonia
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - ILLYRIA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Hamata

    Legio V Alaudae
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - ILLYRIA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Hamata

    Legio V Macedonia
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - THRACIA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Squamata

    Legio VI Victrix
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - BRITANNIA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata

    Legio VI Ferrata
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - SYRIA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Squamata

    Legio VII Claudia Pia Fedelis
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - TARRACONENSIS
    Primary Armour - Lorica Hamata

    Legio VIII Augusta
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - SYRIA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Hamata

    Legio IX Hispania
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - MAGNA GERMANIA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata

    Legio X Gemina
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - RAETIA ET NORICUM
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata / Lorica Hamata

    Legio X Firentis
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - NABATAEA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Hamata

    Legio XI Claudia Pia Fedelis
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - THRACIA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Squamata

    Legio XII Fulminata
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - BITHYNIA ET PONTUS
    Primary Armour - Eastern Scale

    Legio XIII Gemina
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - DACIA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata / Lorica Hamata

    Legio XIV Gemina Martia Victrix
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - RAETIA ET NORICUM
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata / Lorica Squamata or Lorica Hamata

    Legio XV Apollinaris
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - BITHYNIA ET PONTUS
    Primary Armour - Eastern Scale

    Legio XVI Gallica
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - GALATIA ET CAPPADOCIA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Hamata

    Legio XVII
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - SUEBI
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata

    Legio XVIII
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - SUEBI
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata

    Legio XIX
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - SUEBI
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata

    Legio XX Valeria Victrix
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - BRITANNIA
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata

    Legio XXI Rapax
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - AEGYPTUS
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata

    Legio XXII Deiiotariana
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Legion area of recruitment - AEGYPTUS
    Primary Armour - Lorica Segmentata


    Again all subject to change guys and gals

  16. #36
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    Another roster I forgot, the recruitable generals roster.

  17. #37
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    Update:

    I am done with all rosters and reforms from early republican to late imperial armies. I am currently working on a test if I can put the entire rosters and their reforms on a single working paper. If it doesn't work I will post my last rosters in text formate. The roster will be awesome thanks to RSII, RTR, MM, CAC, Hloerics, Marshall of France's, Damocles's and mine research.

    What is left to do:

    - Generals Roster
    - Naval Roster
    - Garrison Rosters
    - Siege Engine Roster
    - Mercenary Roster (of the Roman Territory for Non-Romans)
    Last edited by Hetairos; June 20, 2014 at 07:22 PM.

  18. #38
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    Feedback from ABH2:

    I have some stuff to add to what you recently posted regarding the Republican and Marian units.

    Given the start date on the eve of the 2nd Punic War:
    1. It is highly likely that the gladius was already in use at this time as the main weapon of the Roman infantry. Polybius contradicts himself on this, but archaeological finds indicate that it was in use by the Romans in the First Punic War.

    2. On the Socii Extraordinarii Pedites-You classify them as 'scouts,' but I don't believe this is an apt description. Polybius is basically the only source we have on their existence period, but he describes a picked body of infantry that were posted where the Romans were most vulnerable to attack. If they expected or thought a rear attack was a risk, they'd post them in the rear. When on the march, they were typically described as being in the front. When in camp, they were closer to the walls. I believe these were heavy infantry. Possibly the Socii version of the Triarii. It's possible the Romans simply picked the most fit of the allied soldiers. I would imagine it could have been done with political considerations in mind, as well. But I don't get the 'scout' description. Perhaps they were versatile and used in different capacities, but their positioning leads me to believe they were heavy infantry.

    3. On the Socii cavalry - there is a designation of 'light' and 'heavy' cavalry, but based on the Second Punic War, the Italians at this point don't seem to have employed light cavalry at all. Hence the success of the Numidians and the importance placed on their inclusion in the army as time went on. Polybius describes early Italian cavalry as being lightly armored, but having at some point (probably from Pyrrhus or perhaps interactions with the Greek colonies) they adopted more Greek style armor, equipment, and tactics. Again going back to archaeological finds, they probably were heavy infantry with Greek spears, buckler shields, and armor (scale, mail, and plate are all depicted at various times). The equites could afford to buy themselves better equipment.

    Light cavalry would have been a tactical innovation during the Second Punic War, I believe. The Romans did have Gallic allies who fought with them as well as Numidians and other allies who began to fill these niche roles.

    4. One other thing to add to the Marian reforms - increased movement points for the units. The logistical changes of the time period were probably the single biggest change while the others seem to have been the end result of a gradual professionalization of the army.


    Nice, job, I am particularly interested when, how and with what the velites and equites where replaced


    I thought I could provide some info here, though the rosters reflect some of the issues. On cavalry - the wealthier classes had basically invested themselves into their landed estates. I would think there was simply less interest in serving in the cavalry and they had probably only a small body of actual Romans. With the granting of citizenship rights to all the Italians, there was less desire for the higher classes that constituted the cavalry to serve. Italian allies had made up the bulk of the Roman cavalry in the first place.

    Auxilla mainly provided the bulk of the cavalry going forward.

    In terms of light troops, with the poorer classes having the land requirements waived to join the legions, light troops, too, came from auxilla. Mercenaries were already employed in this role in the 2nd century.

    I also have some issues with the Antesignani unit. I'm aware it's been included in the past, but the term is vague, had different meanings, and it's never clear in any source I've seen that it was in fact a distinct unit type. It seems to have typically denoted the frontline soldiers. Ceasar seems to use the term in this way as he describes taking these young men and giving them lighter equipment so they could fight with his outmanned cavalry forces. That would suggest it was atypical, and that they were typically more heavily armored. He also states he did this to give them fighting experience which again suggests simply younger members of the legions.

    This was also another way Caesar and later Romans began to address their lack of cavalry (intermixing with light infantry). Caesar seems to have adopted it after seeing the effectivess of his German troops.

    The term had different meanings at different times, but I really question whether it was a separate entity equipped in a lighter fashion. I think the term simply kept a relatively similar meaning to as when used by Livy to refer to members of the maniples who fought in the front ranks at any given moment. So, again, probably the younger soldiers.

    I would actually like to see a real representation of the mixed cavalry/light infantry units started (at least for the Romans) by Caesar. They would actually use the pilum as their main weapon and fight with the cavalry.

  19. #39
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    1. there are several sources that contradict themselves, most probably also because both were true. I believe strongly that in the second punic war there might have been units still fighting with spears, not all heavy infantry wearing chain-mail and so on, but thats not of importance now. The reason why I put the early hastati there was that it is widely stated that the hastati and principles fought with spear and the shorter italic gladius. the gladius hispaniensis was already in use, but really got introduced as the standard roman high quality sword around that time. It is highly likely that when the romans switched from the italic gladius to the hispanic one, that they abandoned the haste spear once and for all in all troops (except for the triarii).

    2.) The extraordinary peddles were not scouts, but the elite infantry (the chosen hoplites so to speak) of the italian tribes. they were under direct command of the consul.

    3.) the roman legions during that time used 300 roman equites per legion and 900 allied equites. from those 900 allied equites 300 were extraordinary (elite ones / picked ones) the romans would take the honorable right side while the allies would take the left side. so the left side had those 300 light roman, while the left had 600 light allies and 300 maybe medium allied cavalry. why hannibal and his numidians annihilated the romans was simply because they used the weakness of the roman flank being only 300 cavalry units and routed them in a record time. secondly the numidian cavalry with the gaulish ones employed by carthage were just superior not to mention much more numerous.

    4. the technology for the marian reforms will increase marching time heavily. not for nothing the legionaries were called Marians mules

    5. antesignani were the new much better armored velites. the problem here was they were attached to a cohors and lost their own prominence in the history books. however its clear that those were the new velites, since those poorly armored velites were not competitive enough in prolonged battle anymore.

    6. apparently the roman and allied cavalry disappeared as soon as the allies were granted citizenship. the main problem is that from that timeframe to the appearance of the first auxilia we don't really know who did take up the gap of supplying cavalry and light infantry. Well it must have been mercs and early auxilia troops, but we don't really know about who supplied them, in what kind of form (they were apparently not armed like the auxilia we know of today) and when the first standardized auxilia appeared. there is kind of a gap of knowledge between the marian reforms and the imperial reforms. there is not much known of what happened after the social war and the citizenship for italians.

    I am still trying to find a proper link from marian disappearance of cavalry and light infantry and the auxilia of the imperial time. I am also beginning to take a look now at the buildings step by step. Can make a post of the available rigid models and color them in the fashion like the building icons are now (red military, blue harbors and so on)? Or are there too many rigid models?

  20. #40
    Hetairos's Avatar Roma Surrectum II
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    Default Re: [Research] Roman Armies

    PS: If somebody can take over the following assignments, you would do me some good timesaving...

    - Gradually evolving: Garrison Rosters
    - Gradually evolving: Generals Rosters
    - Gradually evolving: Naval Rosters
    - Gradually evolving: Siege Equipment Rosters

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