Bugs Reports & Technical Help

[eyelurker]

It seems noble manpower are more funky than i thought. Zengids have the same problem as Abbasids (max:2 in all except lv2 noble which max:3) meanwhile Sicily have max:2 in all noble building except lv4 which give max:5

On the plus side upgrading Landowner will still decrease the manpower recharge.

[William the Silent]

Yeah, this is difficult even on M/M... We're analysing the issue of Ducal Axes indeed. My thinking is going into nerfing the Lithuanian units as their comparative strenght is unhistorical in my eyes.
Indeed the problem of Poland (and of Hungary) is from how many factions they can be attacked. You've got contact with Novgorod through Grodno? How the HRE and Kieve behave? Any other thoughts?
@Macaras, what do you think about switching off the initial Polish-Hungarian war? Historically, it was just a short incident (even if recrurrent), while in the Med2 engine it's very difficult to end the war?

When Lithaunia kept attacking me I thought I could weaken them by taking their Capital. But because the recruiting of Ducal Noble Axeman has not been reduced they still are strong and can keep attacking me.
So there should be a mechanism that weakens opponents when taking their assets. Or at least they should stop attacking you at a certain level. Lithaunia never stops attacking me.
In the mean time I loose my reputation (no more hospitlers), economy growth and recruiting ability. And I get more enemies because I become weak.

[eyelurker]

This would in line with the tangled logic of the Med2 engine.


Yeah, this is difficult even on M/M... We're analysing the issue of Ducal Axes indeed. My thinking is going into nerfing the Lithuanian units as their comparative strenght is unhistorical in my eyes.
Indeed the problem of Poland (and of Hungary) is from how many factions they can be attacked. You've got contact with Novgorod through Grodno? How the HRE and Kieve behave? Any other thoughts?
@Macaras, what do you think about switching off the initial Polish-Hungarian war? Historically, it was just a short incident (even if recrurrent), while in the Med2 engine it's very difficult to end the war?

Considering how difficult peace is obtained i don't think faction immidiately at war shouldn't be done in the first place. However at the start there is some chance you could intimidate your enemy to make peace.

To give example is my Abbasid. I park as much army as i have in Ar-Wasit and if Seljuk decide to send diplomat to Ar-Wasit, that means they want peace. But if their diplomat stay or go to Hamadan that means they don't want peace.

Also peace if possible are not properly balance with the current economy since as Zengids after repelling the crusade, France offer me peace for a tribute of 10.000 for 3 turns. Effectively asking 30k for a war i won. The rest outright refuse not even with 10k

[Macaras]

This would in line with the tangled logic of the Med2 engine.
Yeah, this is difficult even on M/M... We're analysing the issue of Ducal Axes indeed. My thinking is going into nerfing the Lithuanian units as their comparative strenght is unhistorical in my eyes.
Indeed the problem of Poland (and of Hungary) is from how many factions they can be attacked. You've got contact with Novgorod through Grodno? How the HRE and Kieve behave? Any other thoughts?
@Macaras, what do you think about switching off the initial Polish-Hungarian war? Historically, it was just a short incident (even if recrurrent), while in the Med2 engine it's very difficult to end the war?

I don't know anything historically about this war, so if you say it was an incident, absolutely I am for switching it off. I think Poland and Hungary in our mod are busy enough Poland with the north-eastern factions and Hungary with the south - Byz and Serbia, so neither have a reason to wage a long war, and both factions have no easy position.

Wiliam and Eyelurker- please upload saves, I wonder what are your relations with the neighbors? It also matters a lot, not only your reputation. Keep in mind that if you conquer a settlement, forget about peace in next few turns, your relations will go to terrible or abysmal, only when it gets to poor/very poor you will be able to get peace. And also sometimes you will just lose a settlement to the enemy and there will be no way of obtaining peace, or sometimes you will have to offer a settlement in order to have peace (the last change I made is that ai will agree much easier for peace for settlement). Another thing, most of the time it's impossible to wage war with two enemies at the same time. So when you are at war and see that the other gets ready to attack you - prepare immediately. I know it's all sometimes much more chaotic and difficult - but that's the point. If your war is you defending your territory and releasing/ransom the captives (this was also changed, the penalty for slaughtering rejected captives is much lower now), ai will be much more willing to sign peace. You get a huge relations penalty for capturing a settlement, but also a little bit for trespassing enemy territory.
Sometimes waging war with one enemy is more beneficial than peace - your rep gets better, you train units and generals and in the beginning there is a mechanism that lowers probability of a second war and almost removes probability of the third war. This mechanism depends also on how many cities you have, it disappears when you are strong and comes back if you lose some cities.

Poland or Abbasids are not so difficult. Poland is more difficult, but if you manage to keep HRE as your ally, the other factions are not so strong. In the beginning you are separated from hre by the rebel cities, and it takes a while for them to conquer them. Use this time to destroy lithuania, get good reputation and then sign an alliance with hre giving them 8-10k. If you have reputation very reliable the hre will keep alliance for a long time. I also noted that its beter to keep fighting with Lithuania until they are destroyed completely, otherwise they have too many bonuses and become too strong very fast. Usually hungarians are busy with Byzantium, Kiev with Cumans and Novgorod will be the next potential enemy. But also if you see that Hungary or Kiev are at peace with everybody that means you will be attacked probably, they are just getting ready to attack. In the way you may lose Stetin to Denmark, but you will be able to take it back sooner or later. Last thing - it doesn't make sense to keep garrisons in all cities ("who defends everything defends nothing"). Just keep some heavy units in key settlements, AI will consider it if they are in range more or less. Especially militia and peasant archers AI attacks them even with much smaller but heavier armored armies. So if your leader is able to keep more free upkeep militia units it is not really so important, ai will not care too much if its 2,3 or 4 units.
Last thing- not all the settlements are worth taking, sometimes it's even better to give a settlement for free to be separated from your enemy. Sometimes you conquer a city and its more expensive to keep it garrisoned and later to defend it then not to have it at all. So every step needs to planned very carefully.

[eyelurker]

I will edit or rebump for the save files since i'm still in mobile but once i got my laptop you could see that many of my enemies are in so-so relationship. Fatimid are abysmal because i conquer Syria but Abbasid which i left alone and only engage in battle in my territory refuse no matter what. There is also Rum which are also so so but to be fair to Rum, they just declare war which might contribute a factor.

I'll try as well to see if i can screenshot the Gallows 20% dillema

Edit : Nevermind. My laptop go dysfunctional and now cannot detect internet. I could only show it from my mobile photo. Also my enemy relationship that is not Islam are poor.

[William the Silent]

Poland or Abbasids are not so difficult. Poland is more difficult, but if you manage to keep HRE as your ally, the other factions are not so strong. In the beginning you are separated from hre by the rebel cities, and it takes a while for them to conquer them. Use this time to destroy lithuania, get good reputation and then sign an alliance with hre giving them 8-10k.

With the constant attacks from Lithaunia you cannot built an economy where you have left 10.000 to buy peace with HRE. A solution is to offer Grodno to Rus. They are my allies already and make them attack Lithaunia. But you cannot trust even allies. I have been attacked by allies before.
Destroying Lithaunia will give you a large piece of land that you cannot defend, because your resources have been run low because of that war, and others will start attacking. And Hungary, Novgorod are waiting to attack. Or Denmark that took Stetin.
You cannot defend all sides.
HRE is my neighbour already at turn 50, but they have stayed peaceful.

[Macaras]

A solution is to offer Grodno to Rus. They are my allies already and make them attack Lithaunia. But you cannot trust even allies. I have been attacked by allies before.

Yes, you cannot trust allies unless some conditions are fulfilled, good rep and relations and it's only until turn 100 or 150. And if some of the factions become strong quickly ai switches to a mode without bonuses for human. It doesn't concern Poland, just the factions that start with access to big cities/citadels.

There is a moment in the beginning when everybody is at peace and waiting whom to attack, that may be kind of traumatic for the player, because the player is usually a first target. But after they start fighting between themselves it becomes easier. Look i played Poland many times, losing many cities, reconquering them, losing again etc. Sometimes I just clicked for 20 turns from the start waiting what will happen, losing a city and then I started playing and it still was not so difficult.
This 10k of money is not so much, you just don't build 3 buildings, time to develop economy will be later when the borders are secured more or less. Even if you just stay with 3 cities, wait for a good moment to rebuild the empire.

[William the Silent]

Last thing - it doesn't make sense to keep garrisons in all cities ("who defends everything defends nothing"). Just keep some heavy units in key settlements, AI will consider it if they are in range more or less. Especially militia and peasant archers AI attacks them even with much smaller but heavier armored armies. So if your leader is able to keep more free upkeep militia units it is not really so important, ai will not care too much if its 2,3 or 4 units.
Last thing- not all the settlements are worth taking, sometimes it's even better to give a settlement for free to be separated from your enemy. Sometimes you conquer a city and its more expensive to keep it garrisoned and later to defend it then not to have it at all. So every step needs to planned very carefully.

If you make 4000 per turn you cannot afford many good units and you need them to defeat Lithaunia.
Heavy units have no free upkeep.
Try my campaign from turn 50. Every battle with Lithaunia you loose so many soldiers. You cannot replenish because the cities are far away and there are not enough good units to recruit after a while.
And the Ducals keep coming. I believe there are already 8 again in turn 51 after you defeat their big stack (leave no Ducal survivors).

Turn55:
If I attack the Hungarian besiegers the next turn Hungaria will attack my other city.
Lithaunia threatens also one city and Novgorod and Lithaunia the other. I cannot even make it to my northen city.
I beat back Denmark earlier but they are rebuilding.

[Macaras]

William, the problem is you have deceitful reputation, that's why they don't want to sign peace.

[eyelurker]

William, the problem is you have deceitful reputation, that's why they don't want to sign peace.

Looks like too many sacking occured haha. I have changed tact with my diplomacy by basicly paying 10k for my neighbor that i'm not going at war with since it's cheaper to ally rather than making peace.

As Norman Sicily it looks a bit more stable since Roman offer me 15k(5k 3 turns) for peace but i decline since i need someone to fight and Roman is an easy choice as Sicily. Reputation is somewhere in mixed to dubious.

Also discover that upon the death of ai ruler they have a chance to make peace and broke all their ally without penalty. Is it ai only or player can do it too?

[William the Silent]

William, the problem is you have deceitful reputation, that's why they don't want to sign peace.

How did I get that? I only defended myself and took Grodno, which I sacked to prevent riots and to stop Lithaunia from attacking me (didn't work).

But that aside I continued my campaign:
I gave Grodno to Rus after destroying all buildings to have some cash.
Before that event I put my army on the bridge to Grodno where I had to fight a big stack of Lithaunia, that I bearly beat by killing their general (with archers and javelins). Then I gave away Grodno with my only diplomat that luckily was in the neighbourhood. That was so traumatic to him I believe, because he died 1 turn later at 56.

I blocked Hungary with a strong expensive army and they didn't dare to attack. I followed their army through MY lands. I lost all my mercenaries because of debt. But I had less land to defend and I could stabalize my postion.

So I'm back at the starting positions, but Lithaunia is not attacking, Hungaria moved on to the east, HRE is getting closer and my bank account is growing again little by little.
I have a beautiful princess that I might want to marry out to some foreign idiot that tries to threaten me. Poor girl.

Btw:
I (the romantic history loving gamer) am trying to play the Mod like a medieval king, but you modders that give me advice try to make me beat a computer program that runs MTW2.
That's not how it works for me

[Desperado Outlaw]

I moved an administratively minded general into a city with school in it, but after multiple turns he didn't learn anything. Is this a bug?

[Jurand of Cracow]

I moved an administratively minded general into a city with school in it, but after multiple turns he didn't learn anything. Is this a bug?

Is he a teenager? What intelligence does he have?

[Macaras]

How did I get that? I only defended myself and took Grodno, which I sacked to prevent riots and to stop Lithaunia from attacking me (didn't work).
But that aside I continued my campaign:
I gave Grodno to Rus after destroying all buildings to have some cash.

That sounds like a reputation killer When you sack the city, you kill some thousands of innocent civilians.. If on the way you exterminated captives - that's all you need for the bad rep.

Btw:
I (the romantic history loving gamer) am trying to play the Mod like a medieval king, but you modders that give me advice try to make me beat a computer program that runs MTW2.
That's not how it works for me

I understand totally what you mean, but it's just a game.. If AI is not aggressive, the player just conquers the map. The advantage of human is that we learn fast how to deal with ai, how to find exploits etc.
You see this rep and relations is the mechanism that slows down conquest of the player, so you have to be carefull, secure alliances, mary princess and be very careful if you start wars, slaughter the captives or conquer the settlements. The alternative is snowballing through the game. The only way AI 'knows' you is through your reputation and relations, and it was constructed in vanilla like this. You need to work somehow on your PR and be seen as a trustworthy king. So if you are perceived as worthy of trust, then you experience that AI is more reasonable. Anyway, are you playing in the M/M ? If so, it seem I need to lower the difficulty..

[Belovèse]

I think sacking should not impact reputation, only relation to the other country and its allies.

But apart from that it is indeed just a game: doesn't it also takes you out of roleplay to destroy buildings to gain money before selling a ruined city for peace? Only an AI would accept that kind of deal

[Macaras]

I think sacking should not impact reputation, only relation to the other country and its allies.

But apart from that it is indeed just a game: doesn't it also takes you out of roleplay to destroy buildings to gain money before selling a ruined city for peace? Only an AI would accept that kind of deal

Sacking still means killing civilians, so there should be a penalty ? It's already 50% of what player gets for extermination..

William, here is the updated file for AI - the medium level should be easier, the ai will observe the alliances more and the invade priority is lowered. It will affect already started campaign, I hope it will make your game more enjoyable

[William the Silent]

I moved an administratively minded general into a city with school in it, but after multiple turns he didn't learn anything. Is this a bug?

Probably Public School.

[William the Silent]

About sacking:
I believe atrocities against Pagans, heretics or Infidels were not considered that bad.
Lithaunia are pagans.

[William the Silent]

Sacking still means killing civilians, so there should be a penalty ? It's already 50% of what player gets for extermination..

William, here is the updated file for AI - the medium level should be easier, the ai will observe the alliances more and the invade priority is lowered. It will affect already started campaign, I hope it will make your game more enjoyable

Thanks again.
I actually like the slow pace/progress of the mod. It fits my kind of game play.
But this last campaign I got in trouble from the start.
Still learning the workings of the game.

Btw. Crusader States offered me Alliance and trade after my survival campaign.

[eyelurker]

If AI is not aggressive, the player just conquers the map.

Honestly i think this just sums up one of the SSHIP game design philosophy. Sacking are very useful as a way to keep up public order and give you money on top of that so no wonder it is given more penalizatiion.

But maybe it's masochist inside me or it's because i play battle brothers(which i heard from this mod soundtrack too) i'm weirdly accepting of it despite my complaint.

I do have to give praise on being the only mod that change stealing back settlement diplomacy. In vanilla it turns your reputation into despicable the moment you retake it back whoch would be fine if not for some mod to have a script that spawn enemy settlement inside your territory and retaking it count as "stealing". Usually i have to manually change it to have zero consequence to prevent decreasing reputation because i'm trying to beat the script scenario.