SSHIP - General Discussion

[Majkl]

1. Use of latin language. Latin language was dominant language in medieval Hungary. Yes, there were papers in many languages (Magyar, Slavic, Romanian, German...) which mirrors the reality that Hungary was not "one nation" kingdom. Nevertheless latin language was official languge in Hungary since beggining. (cca year 1000) See Stephen law books for example. I do not understand use of hungarized/magyarized titles names etc. There was no Király.. it was Stephanus Rex. See coins he started to mint right after his coronation for example. Latin language seems more appropriate and also it is much easier to read for nonhungarians.

Now that I think about it I could be capable of implementing latin language myself. Maybe I will start by doing some little minimod for SSHIP. Maybe once it will be beginning of much bigger project of reworking Hungarian kingdom.

[Lifthrasir]

@ lonewolf90, ballistas and catapults have been removed for the simple reason that they were not used as offensive weapons anymore during the game period.

@ j.a.luna, Huscarls were more or less annihilited during the battle of Hastings in 1066 AD by the Norman's troops of Guillaume the Conqueror. The remaining one left England, mostly for Scandinavia. In 1132 AD, they had almost completely disappeared. I'm honestly considering to remove them to get another free slot for "better" unit.

@ Henri X, we know that Serbia need to be implemented. SerbianWolf has already given me some useful infos but I still need to organize things to rework the Serbian roster.

@ tmoldesk, be careful with the sources mentioning the battle of Poitiers. That was not a real battle in the meaning of 2 kingdoms fighting against each other. It wasn't even an invasion but more a kind of raid and pillages. The point for which I'm sure it is correct is the light cavalry that impressed Charles Martel.

@ Majkl, thanks for your post. The funny thing is that I'm just coming back for a trip to Budapest and I agree with you for most of the points. I've been in the National Hungarian Museum which was a real gold mine for me But unfortunately, I lost my phone with all the pics in the Danube (must be half way to the Black Sea now)
And guess what? They even use M2TW engine to make a movie explaining the Maggyars raids across Europe during the 10th century Regarding symbols, I ve seen one with a sun and a crescent but I have to make some researches about the relevant period for it. I've also seen a blason from the 13th century, divided in 4 parts, with lions or wolfs (not sure) and eagles. I've the seen almost the same one with lions and eagles in Vienna. That would confirm the German origin for some of the nobility.
There was also another one representing 2 dogs facing each other with chains. Not to mention the armories of the Apadians and later of the Danjou.
From the King Stephen (also known as Saint Stephen), the Hungarians adopted a feudal system similar to the other Western kingdoms. It seems that quite a lot of settlements were somehow autonomous. Their army was quite similar to the Western ones with mounted archers and perhaps also mounted javelinmen (need to be confirmed as I'm not sure they were still used after the 11th century). Sabers seem to have been preferred for mounted units instead swords.
For infantry, they had spearmen, swordmen and axemen. From the 14th century, they had macemen as well. Crossbows were also used but not sure about the starting period.
Mail and lamellar armours seem to have been the most in used in early period but their evolution was the same as for the other Western kingdoms.
Shields seem to have had many forms. Later, Pavise shields were used and a specific one for cavalry (never seen one like that before, curved with one side going higher than the other one). Bows were composite.
Cumans didn't take a major role before the 13th century (when they were fleeing the Mongols and arrived in Hungaria). But once they arrived in Hungaria, they were assimiled in the Hungarian society and army. Their influence has to be taken into account as it was important.
This is just a quick summary. There's a lot more to say about Hungaria.

[j.a.luna]

hehe welcome Lifth!! i would suggest that you were on holidays hehe,
- About huscarls i left some valuable information here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ROSTERS/page23 much interesting things about these elite units...and maybe you can removed and make a early model for varangian guard(more nordic style and a bit romanized) this image is perfect...


also some type of mercenary huscarls were in rus lands and scandinavian lands


About implemented norman sergeant also for sicilians what do you think? i guess that is logical that norman england and norman sicilians have miles,miles pedites,norman knights and also norman sergeants at the beggining of the game..and after they can replace for spearmen sergeants
And about my previous post of make a retinue for patriarch of constantinople for make the most important religious figure in orthodox world(much piety,movement and maybe could change a bit her model strat) and also for jerusalem patriarch,he was a pretty important figure for jerusalem and templars...

about hungarian information is great know this, this roster need improve but bit a bit is better, i guess that hungarian can a mix of western army and cavalry bowmen(magyars) and after including cumans in thir armies with also have stronger hungarian spearmen


pd: sorry for your phone Lifth, it has precious images sure

[Majkl]

Phone in Danube? Well played.
Nice to see that we agree on something. Such topics are usually full of controversy due to nationalistic views. (I kind of understand that thou) So what do you think about opening some research topic? I could promise using historical resources as much as possible.
Btw: You were of course right about cumans. I forgot to mention that they arrived later.

[Lifthrasir]

Well, the phone itself was old (about 7 to 8 years old at least) and I was about to change it. Hopefully, I've got a save for the contacts. I'm really pissed off against myself for the pics.

@ Majkl, if I hadn't been there, I would probably had some doubts for some points. But after what I've seen, I tend to agree. I guess the best place to discuss about that topic is here. I'll see what I can put in there myself despite the loss of the pics. I think that if we can re-work Hungarian and Serbian rosters at the same time, that would be good.

@ j.a.luna, we'll see what we can do about the Varangian Guards

[Majkl]

@ Majkl, if I hadn't been there, I would probably had some doubts for some points.

Well, they are still open to discussion. I will try to post book reference to every proposal. From now on I will move onto topic you pointed me to.

[+Marius+]

@ tmoldesk, be careful with the sources mentioning the battle of Poitiers. That was not a real battle in the meaning of 2 kingdoms fighting against each other. It wasn't even an invasion but more a kind of raid and pillages.

An utterly incorrect statement.

It was a battle between the the Umayyad Caliphate and the Christian alliance led by the Prince of the Franks.

The Muslim forces were led by the governor of Andalus and he, just like his predecessor in another campaign, led the army personally and died in battle.

Raids do not conquer territory and cities.

Raids do not number 20-50 000 soldiers.

Just because the army pillaged its way towards central France does not mean its purpose was raiding, by that account the Ottoman assaults on Vienna were also just raids.

The amount of irrational downplaying this battle gets is truly bizarre.

[Alganor]

Lifthrasir

@ Majkl, if I hadn't been there, I would probably had some doubts for some points. But after what I've seen, I tend to agree. I guess the best place to discuss about that topic is here. I'll see what I can put in there myself despite the loss of the pics. I think that if we can re-work Hungarian and Serbian rosters at the same time, that would be good.

Could you use Magyar mod? Fully integrate it, not only units and use latin language.

[Lifthrasir]

The Magyar Mod team is very strick for the use of their work and I don't think we have reached the level they requier for that. But at least they provide some good sources.

@ Kersten pire, I can't reply to your private message as you choose to not receive any. Is there any way I can contact you?

@ +Marius+, I disagree. Ok, there are many sources that show that that event is still controversial. Anyway, why Abd al-Rahman would have gone that far to North, avoiding carefully Toulouse (umayyads were defeated there in 721 AD), sacking and pillaging Bordeaux (without occupying it) to continue towards Tours (in unknown lands for Muslims)? That sounds a bit strange for an invasion or was he the worst tactician of the Umayyad period?
Anyway, this is a bit off-topic considering that it happened 400 years before the game starts.

[Majkl]

I went to library to get some nice books.. Found out they are closed till 8th august due to holidays.. Killed all my hype.

[Lifthrasir]

No worries, there's no rush

[+Marius+]

@ +Marius+, I disagree. Ok, there are many sources that show that that event is still controversial.

Not really, just modern re-imaginations.

Anyway, why Abd al-Rahman would have gone that far to North, avoiding carefully Toulouse (umayyads were defeated there in 721 AD), sacking and pillaging Bordeaux (without occupying it) to continue towards Tours (in unknown lands for Muslims)? That sounds a bit strange for an invasion or was he the worst tactician of the Umayyad period?

He was chasing count Odo.
He knew that the Franks were now his main enemy.
Tours was definitely not terra incognita for the Muslims.
If the Muslims won they would have basically took most of Western and Southern France unopposed, since the Franks were the only force even capable of dealing with Andalus armies at that point.


The Muslim invasion of Egypt had 8000 men, the Muslim invasion of Spain had 6000-10 000 men, the Muslim invasion of Persia had initially 20 000 men, same for the Levant, all of these followed exactly as the campaign into France with the only difference of them not being victorious.


If it was a raid, then nearly every unsuccessful campaign in human history can be described as one as well.

[Lifthrasir]

That's your opinion. Depending on the sources, sometimes it is mentioned "invasion" and some other times, it is mentioned "raids". The battle of Poitiers (or Tours which is more correct actually) is sometimes considered as a micro-event and sometimes as a macro-event. So yes, it is a controversial event as historians don't agree on where, when, how and about the consequences (and I'm not mentioning the revisionist version of some extremists).
Also, would you leave a settlement like Toulouse behind you if you were invading France by the South? Would you destroy Bordeaux just for looting purposes, losing the possible economic income and military stronghol that way?
Would you chase Odo up to Austrasia even if he wasn't a threat anymore for you?
On a similar subject, would you consider Edouard III or the Black Prince expeditions during the Hundred Years War as invasions?
Regarding the armies size, records are different depending on the sources again: between 15,000 and 75,000 men for Charles Martel vs between 60,000 and 400,000 men for Abd al-Rahman.
See my point. You might be right but some points remain bizarre for me
As this event took place 4 centuries before SSHIP starting date, I won't spend time to check all these sources.

[+Marius+]

That's your opinion.

No, it is a consensus within historiography.

The ones stating it as a raid are the minority.

In fact, apart from forum posts and youtube videos, you will rarely see it described as a raid in any "proper" text.

The battle of Poitiers (or Tours which is more correct actually) is sometimes considered as a micro-event and sometimes as a macro-event.

No, the only thing debatable is the supposed consequences of a Frankish defeat, nobody is actually denying the importance of the battle itself.

Without it, Charlemagne would not be, and without him, Europe as we know it.

Also, would you leave a settlement like Toulouse behind you if you were invading France by the South? Would you destroy Bordeaux just for looting purposes, losing the possible economic income and military stronghol that way?

Do you have any idea how many settlements are left behind because they are well guarded by an invading force?

This is completely common.

Would you chase Odo up to Austrasia even if he wasn't a threat anymore for you?

That argues my point.

On a similar subject, would you consider Edouard III or the Black Prince expeditions during the Hundred Years War as invasions?

Of course they are invasions, the main aspect of a military campaign is its goal, and their goal was clear.

Regarding the armies size, records are different depending on the sources again: between 15,000 and 75,000 men for Charles Martel vs between 60,000 and 400,000 men for Abd al-Rahman.
See my point. You might be right but some points remain bizarre for me

No, I do not see your point, even with the lowest estimates it comes down to one of the largest battles fought in the region for quite some time.

All this raid thing is nothing but peoples obsession with debunking stuff spreading like wildfire.

[j.a.luna]

Friends let's calm down!!haha you have different opinions about it and is understandable but this thread about battle of 732 is out of sship game...let's focus in improve the submod and in the right time(from 1132) and improve the units rosters, sure that modders as Lifth or MWY have much work to do hehe talking about moors i would like see a black guard infantry as in the battle of navas de tolosa(1212) and improved a bit the models of andalusian spearmen(i hate vainilla models) it would a mixed into christian troops and moors
And my dear Lifth if you can answer me about implement norman sergeant to sicily i would be happy haha i would like conquest byzantines with my norman troops!

[Lifthrasir]

No worries, I'm very calm. I'm just considering any source (even if I disagree with some of them). And I agree with you: no point to spend more time on that event which happened 400 years before SSHIP starts.

Regarding the Norman Sergeants for Sicily, I just need a bit of time to check if it is correct to do so or not

[Boogie Knight]

On a similar subject, would you consider Edouard III or the Black Prince expeditions during the Hundred Years War as invasions?

Unless I've misunderstood your point entirely (wouldn't be the first time), the chevauchée was part of a larger military goal of conquest. Edward and later kings knew France was immensely rich and productive; conquest would be impossible without hamstringing its means of supply. They were playing the long game and hitting the French crown where it hurt, because any sensible logic said that going up directly against the might of the French army at its best was suicide. Agincourt, Crecy and the like were outliers and decisive battles couldn't be relied upon on their own to win the war, especially not in the opening stages when Edward and the Black Prince were still in the game. So those absolutely could be, and were, invasions.

@ j.a.luna and Lifthrasir: Regarding Housecarls - I know we've discussed them several times before, but I'm still interested so do say if I'm just rehashing old ground and I'll get back in my box. Do we have any Danish sources on them for the time period in question? From what I know from the Anglo-Saxon chronicle, many did peel away from the attempts at re-conquest and head to Denmark but I don't know if it's stated where those men came from originally. Were they Saxon, or Danish? Many Danish warriors had come over or been elevated by Sweyn Forkbeard and Cnut, so the availability of a Saxon Housecarl unit in Denmark is questionable, though I suppose not immediately dismiss-able. A lot of the Danish and Swedish nobles were found to be unreliable (an understatement) by Cnut and so were replaced in favour of native English earls, hence the ascension of the Godwin family, but at the lower levels (such as Housecarls and presumably thegns) I'd expect a certain degree of Danish retention at the time of the conquest. Hence I reckon these were the ones returning to Denmark.

Where we know the Saxons did go is Constantinople - in their droves, hence the Greeks came to call the unit the Anglo-Varangians - and lowland Scotland, with the household of Edgar Aetheling. I've given Lifthrasir sources on their presence at the Battle of the Standard (1138) but I'm not sure he liked them so I don't think anything's come of it. I can't remember.

And finally, what's the thinking behind making the Varangians at this point more Norse? Did I read that right?

[Lifthrasir]

I will revert later about Edward III and the Black Prince "chevauchées". It might not be the best example of my meaning.

Regarding Housecarls or Huskarls, this is not that I don't like them. The question is: what's the point of using a slot in the EDU for an unit that would stay in game less than 25 turns?

Regarding the Varangian Guards, I wrote in post #2645 above:

@ j.a.luna, we'll see what we can do about the Varangian Guards

which doesn't mean that they will look more Norse. It just mean that we have noted the message and we are considering the idea (not necessary accepting it). Same about Norman Sergeants for Sicily.

[j.a.luna]

Regarding huskarls is a shame or pity that an unit so cool and elite dissapear in this submod..in my opinion i removed first other ugly and useless units instead of huskarls(saxon and norwegian) i want continue play and broke heads with my powerful nordics big axes aaaaerrgg!

And about norman sergeants for sicily i think that should be in this army, normans are normans for english and for sicily and in the beginning of the game the normans have similar armies, i search some information about normans in the conquest of africa and they used muslims troops and also their typical army composed by miles and sergeants, i guess that shouldn't have problem in this topic because is give it to submod more variety in their troops and the model of norman sergeant is correct for early armies of sicilian for after be replaced for other models more european as spearmen sergeant...but you decide Lifth..

[Lifthrasir]

The question about Huskarls is not about to be useful or useless. It's just a question of engine limits and accuracy. Huskarls disappeared just a few years after the game starts. If I remember correctly, there's no record of Huskarls after 1145 AD. So, what's the point of using a slot for an unit staying in game 25 turns or so while you can have another that would stay 100 turns +? If you want to play Norses with big axes, I recommend to play the Last Kingdom mod.

About Norman Sergeants for Sicily, the question here is about accuracy. Did Sicily use them and did Sicily still use them during the 12th century? This is just simple as that. You say so and you're probably right. But until MWY or myself have checked this, you have to wait.